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Dennis1209

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5 hours ago, Steve_S said:

 

Eze 38:2  "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 
Eze 38:3  and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 
Eze 38:4  I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 
Eze 38:6  Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you. 

 

Hi Steve,

I looked into the migrations of these people groups after the flood. Not all the historians agree about times and dates or even the regions these groups dominated. One common thread the chroniclers may not realize is some bands from these people groups did not stop until reaching the seas north of Asia Minor and from east to west. There are anecdotes from history relating groups in the British Isles were called Magogites. Descendants of these people groups also became the Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes, millions strong, a horse people that some think are still there but have moved more into Siberia of late.

An Armenian friend of mine says they no longer exist but that may be due to a relocation as I see no evidence of a mass die out of these people. It's possible they moved due to local political pressures. No one really knows what the population of Siberia may be as there is just no way to take a census of this vast tract. 

The point being that after the flood the peoples from the above quote definitively moved north past the Caucasus and spread from east to west from the Atlantic to the Pacific and are not limited to Asia Minor.

In fact the people that exist throughout the earth, in 2019, came from the sons of Noah. In no sense then can the descendants of Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah be limited to a region but instead their descendants and the descendants of the grandchildren of Noah populated the entire earth. 

There is no contradiction then between the 'whole earth' of Rev and the specific people groups above concerning the Eze 38 war and the gathering in the plain of Meggido at the end; the whole earth contains the descendants of these people groups.

In fact it has to be the same, some survive and go on to repopulate the earth and are deceived once again at the end of the millennium. 

 

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On 11/6/2019 at 9:40 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I have watched hundreds of videos and read dozens of books by renowned and respected scholars; pertaining to the tribulation and the subject of when the Ezekiel 38: 39: war [or Gog-Magog invasion] occurs. We can certainly see it shaping up right before our very own eyes right now. There's a wide variety of opinion; some say it occurs prior to the start of the tribulation, some say at the start of the tribulation, some say in the middle? I've not heard this addressed by these scholars; am I missing something obvious???

Ezekiel 39:9 (KJV) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: [emphasis mine]

Matthew 24:15 (KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

The abomination of desolation occurs exactly at the mid point of the tribulation. The Jewish population and probably most of Israel is going to flee for their lives, be persecuted, chased and murdered by the Lawless One; there will be total chaos. So my logical question: Whom will be left, or even care, to burn those weapons of war seven years as scripture says? Meaning; if no one is left to complete the burning of those weapons for seven years, the weapons had to have started to be burned a minimum of 3 1/2 years prior to the official start of the tribulation. 

Perhaps I'm overlooking the obvious, and why it's not addressed by prophecy scholars and teachers? Your thoughts?

Hi Dennis

My thoughts?  The Ezekiel 38 & 39 war is AT THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM.  That is when they will burn all the weapons with fire.  The dead will be buried in "Hamongog".  It's a new place, it doesn't exist yet. 

 Ezekiel 39:11   And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

EAST OF THE SEA = EAST OF THE DEAD SEA.

GOG AND MAGOG WAR.

 

The Gog and Magog war is not to be confused with the coming Tribulation.  In the coming tribulation, the dead will be buried in "the Valley of Hinnom" also called "Tophet" which runs south of Jerusalem, and in the valley of Jehoshaphat which runs east of Jerusalem.  So all this is not east of the Dead sea, but west of it.  The armies will surround the city of Jerusalem and face the Mount of Olives where the Lord is standing.    Two different wars

Jeremiah 7:32   Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

This coming war.

Joel 3:12   Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

This coming war.

 They will be buried WEST OF THE DEAD SEA facing the EAST.  Facing the Mount of Olives.  This coming trib.

Joel 2:20   But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

This coming war again.

EAST SEA = DEAD SEA

UTMOST SEA = MEDITERRANEAN SEA/GREAT SEA.

Two different locations, two different wars.  They will not be burning the weapons with fire until after the 1000 years.  That other war that is coming.

Look up the locations on a map. 

 

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I believe the Ezekiel 38 battle will happen at the end of the 1000 year millennium..

I wrote a post some years ago on the topic.. Posting it below..

Comapring scriptures with scriptures..

Revelation 20

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are.

 

 

Now Gog Magog is mentioned once in the OT in Ezekiel 38 and again in the Revelation 20. In revelation 20 this great battle and slaughter happens After the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus. But the naming of Gog Magog is not the only interesting fact that leads me to believe that Ezekiel 38 happens at the end of the 1000 years. Lets read:

 

 

 Ezekiel 38

 1 Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, 3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. 5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6 Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

 

 

Stop there. Now it mentions the troops from Persia Ethiopia and Libya. Why does the prophecy not mention the Egyptians? Where are the Syrians? or Sinar/Iraq? Where are all these peoples? Are the Libyans going to march through Egypt to attack Israel while the whole Egyptian nation sits quietly as the tanks roll by? Are the Iraqi's going to be doing the same when the Persians head west to Israel? And likewise is Syria and Lebanon going to  take no part with the armies of the north? What has happened to these nations like Egypt and Syria? Could it be at the time of this war that these nations no longer exist? that they where destroyed 1000 years before and their lands where incorporated into the Messianic Kingdom? Take the time now to read Ezekiel 32 starting from verse 11 to the end.

 

 

God promised to the descendants of Abraham a promised land that was far bigger than the one that He established for them in the time of Moses. lets read about it.

 

 

Genesis 15

17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates

 

 

So God has promised the descendants of Abraham will have a Land that includes the Nile and the Euphrates. Now Persia borders the land of the Euphrates to the east and Libya borders the land of the Nile to the west and Ethiopia borders the land of the Nile to the south. So at the time of Ezekiel the nations of Libya Ethiopia and Persia will border the greater Messianic Kingdom of the Messiah Jesus.

 

 

So the reason that the nations like Egypt and Syria are not mentioned in Ezekiel 38 is because they will have long been destroyed 1000 years before the battle detailed in Ezekiel 38.

 

 

Now let us continue to read Ezekiel 38:

 

 

7 “Prepare yourself and be ready, you and all your companies that are gathered about you; and be a guard for them. 8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

 

 

Now stop."visited".  Who is going to visit them in the latter years? lets read Revelation 20 again:

 

 

Revelation 20

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them

 

 

Also note how Ezekiel describes the condition of safety of the people dwelling in Israel: "now all of them dwell safely." Does that describe the state of affairs of Israel today?? No not in the slightest. But to make the distinction more clear read on for the next 2 verses that more clearly describe the idyllic situation that will prevail in Israel at this time:

 

 

Ezekiel38

9 You will ascend, coming like a storm, covering the land like a cloud, you and all your troops and many peoples with you.”

10 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’

 

 

With no walls? no bars nor gates? Look at Israel today look at the walls, the barbed wire, the compounds, the bars, the perilous state of security. Do the people of Israel dwell in peace and safety? Or in a state of siege and under threat of terror?

 

 

What kind of society needs no walls no bars or even gates? Israel today or Israel during the Reign of The Messiah Jesus? Come to think of it does any society today live in peace and safety with no need for security walls or bars or gates?

 

 

Ezekiel 38

12 to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land. 13 Sheba, Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish, and all their young lions will say to you, ‘Have you come to take plunder? Have you gathered your army to take booty, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take great plunder?’”’

 

 

During the 1000 year rule of the Messiah Jesus, we are told that many of the nations will give up their precious things and make great offering of the wealth of the nations to the Messianic kingdom. Will it be all this wealth that they will be seeking to plunder, great plunder?

 

 

 

 

I believe most people have got the timing of this Ezekiel 38 battle wrong. It is not soon at all but fore tells of the final satanic rebellion that will happen at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

In fact the people that exist throughout the earth, in 2019, came from the sons of Noah. In no sense then can the descendants of Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah be limited to a region but instead their descendants and the descendants of the grandchildren of Noah populated the entire earth. 

Interesting take. I do have a question though. You say these must represent the whole earth and *not* geographic locations. In Ezekiel 27, in the lament for tyre, we see that Tyre traded with:

Eze 27:13  Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your traders. They bartered human lives and vessels of bronze for your merchandise. 
Eze 27:14  Those from the house of Togarmah traded for your wares with horses, steeds, and mules. 

If these are unidentifiable as geographic locations and only represent people, is this saying that Tyre literally traded with the entire world?

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I looked into the migrations of these people groups after the flood. Not all the historians agree about times and dates or even the regions these groups dominated.

Persia, Libya, and Ethiopia being mentioned are obviously nations with geographic boundaries, then and now. The original Hebrew for Libya and Ethiopia is Kush and Put. If these are not geographic locations, in fact, that presents some strange issues for the rest of scripture. Does the location of Libya change generationally as people migrate? Or somewhere like Egpyt? In short, if this principle is applied here, it would seem that it would necessarily have to be applied across the board scripturally. In other words, either these names mean specific places or they do not.

 

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I have to say, Steve_S scriptural interpretations mirror my own. I find it highly suspicious at this present time; all the key players mentioned in Ezekiel are active, involved and building up in Syria. Most if not all of them [not sure about Turkey yet] have a recent mutual defense treaty between them, to now include Sudan [Cush-Ethiopia] and and Libya [Phut]. Never before in history has Russia been involved in the middle-east or had alliances and defense pacts with Muslim nations, that I'm aware of. If I'm incorrect on these alliances, please correct me.

If this Gog-Magog invasion occurs at the end of the millennium as some suggest; that means Israel will be burning those nuclear weapons for seven years while Christ is reigning and ruling the earth. That doesn't seem to fit scripture or make sense? Likewise burning those weapons into the millennium? As I've previously suggested, it appears to me there are two separate Gog-Magog occurrences; and Gog is just a title, probably a demonic title, and Magog is the geographic location. Another separate occurrence 1,000 years apart spawned by Satan's first failed attempt? A specific human "Gog" lifespan would not carry over to the end of the millennium. Notice all my question marks...

One other thing that is conspicuously absent from the Gog-Magog invasion. Israel is currently surrounded by hostile nations and terrorist groups right on their very borders; hell bent on driving them into the sea and remembering them no more. Scripture specifically names the numerous major players and geographic locations of these invaders. Why are these historic enemies of Israel [1948, 1967, 1973] not participating in this once in a lifetime opportunity to wipe out the Jew's? Even Saudi Arabia [Dedan] is mentioned as being a bystander and questioning this invasion? 

Interesting and thought provoking conversation guys and gals.

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Russia went broke fighting in Iran some years ago.

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11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

One other thing that is conspicuously absent from the Gog-Magog invasion. Israel is currently surrounded by hostile nations and terrorist groups right on their very borders; hell bent on driving them into the sea and remembering them no more. Scripture specifically names the numerous major players and geographic locations of these invaders. Why are these historic enemies of Israel [1948, 1967, 1973] not participating in this once in a lifetime opportunity to wipe out the Jew's? Even Saudi Arabia [Dedan] is mentioned as being a bystander and questioning this invasion? 

 

If you look at the post adstar made he laid out the details that are being overlooked to answer that question, the Millennial kingdom and the land promised to Abraham's seed are much larger than present day Israel.  Just take Ezekiel's temple alone, it is bigger than the city of present day Jerusalem, those nations do not exist at that time, they are part of the Millennial kingdom.

 

God bless

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22 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Interesting take. I do have a question though. You say these must represent the whole earth and *not* geographic locations. In Ezekiel 27, in the lament for tyre, we see that Tyre traded with:

Eze 27:13  Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your traders. They bartered human lives and vessels of bronze for your merchandise. 
Eze 27:14  Those from the house of Togarmah traded for your wares with horses, steeds, and mules. 

If these are unidentifiable as geographic locations and only represent people, is this saying that Tyre literally traded with the entire world?

The distinction would be in the areas where the descendants dominated and took up residence and the continued migration of bands of the descendants. Here Tyre is a city that still exists, Javan, Tubal, Meshech are individuals representing a group of descendants that more than likely spread to many areas over time. I don't think it difficult to see that nations or entire regions would trade with a specific city. It would also depend upon how vast the migration was at the point the scripture was written. It could be these three descendants were in a smaller region but it's also possible they came from great distances. The Silk Road is a good example of distant trade and it's without doubt this sort of long distance trade had been occurring then. 

I'm not saying the terms are interchangeable, I'm saying it may be a sweeping reference to the vast spread of the descendants in one case, naming the specific progenitors in the other. Subtle, not a contradiction.

 

22 hours ago, Steve_S said:

Persia, Libya, and Ethiopia being mentioned are obviously nations with geographic boundaries, then and now. The original Hebrew for Libya and Ethiopia is Kush and Put. If these are not geographic locations, in fact, that presents some strange issues for the rest of scripture. Does the location of Libya change generationally as people migrate? Or somewhere like Egpyt? In short, if this principle is applied here, it would seem that it would necessarily have to be applied across the board scripturally. In other words, either these names mean specific places or they do not.

 

And here a distinction should be made as well. Since we have specific nations, where God has set the boundaries of the people, mentioned here we have no further search. We know exactly where they are and have been for millennia. However the exact nation building of Magog, Tubal, and Meshech is undetermined and the historians agree in this. In fact the sons of Japheth are considered by some Medieval documents as the ancestors of both Europeans and East Asians. 

They really have to be. The people of the Asian and European continents had to come from only one source, Noah's sons. We know Magog began to move north to the Caucasus and the migration of this family group did not stop there. It couldn't as we have an enormous population on the two continents.

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23 hours ago, Adstar said:

I believe most people have got the timing of this Ezekiel 38 battle wrong. It is not soon at all but fore tells of the final satanic rebellion that will happen at the end of the 1000 year reign of the Messiah Jesus.

I'm going to take a close look at this and respond later. I'm still not positive if there is one or two Gog wars. I lean toward two. Certainly there is one at the end of the 1000 years.

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On 11/5/2019 at 8:40 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Perhaps I'm overlooking the obvious, and why it's not addressed by prophecy scholars and teachers? Your thoughts?

Hi Dennis,

I wouldn't say it is so obvious, but I will share my thoughts. Starting at the farthest point, -no- the Gog/Magog reference after 1,000 yrs is not the same people group from Ezekiel's prophecy. They are from the entire Earth. However the passage in Revelation about the birds feasting on the corpses is and accompanying verses support a connection to the pertinent Ezekiel chapter.

I have identified key places in scripture where things are cleared up by following the methodology of certain translators, KJV for example. Because we are dealing with obsolete Greek translated into obsolete English in this instance it underscores my point. Translators used italics so it would more readable to the audience and not sound like broken English. And the wanted it to be known they were adding aids as non manuscript wording and not hiding anything. 

Therefore...Rev.20:8- And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, like Gog and Magog.....with italics, reveals the intended meaning. The original manuscripts have NO punctuation at all, so adding  (in a minimal way) helps us get the gist. The scriptures point back to the previous time when massive armies came against God's people from the post millennial perspective.

 

Moving on, author Grant Jeffrey found that by incorporating numbers for MANY surrounding Muslim nations,  an army of 200 million could be raised. No need to import Chinese from half way around the planet.

Indeed about half of the Russian/Soviet/Federation military are Muslims. There would have to be a time when the Islamic differences are cast aside and only the call for destroying Israel could do it. Of course this occurs at the battle of Armageddon (misnomer). This is at a time when God has already used HIS E.M.P. weapon, seen in Rev. 16:10- And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness...(plunged into darkness)...the grid goes down and mechanized battalions are useless. Yet Russia has more horses than any other country in the world. They will be put to use. Also, there at least 100 million AK-47's/AK-74's in circulation, many of which are in the middle eastern nations and surely there are many other rifles/shotguns with wooden stocks etc. These are what will be burned for 7 yrs.  My assumption is people will grab any helmet, home made shield etc. like a Mad Max scenario as they are driven to join the fight.

 

ak-47.jpg

It may or not be "satisfactory" to you but to me it actually does keep it simple.

Edited by Uriah
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