Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

Hello all....I know we have different opinions among us....but I'd like to share my point of view, if that's ok....if I'm wrong, please correct me.

Or, maybe we should chat about this in ongoing detail in a "soapbox" discussion?

Anyway, here's my thesis:  CHRISTIANS SHOULD GROW IN FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE TO OBSERVABLE TORAH PORTIONS

Here's a brief summary of my supporting evidence:

1. God commands Torah (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).  We should obey God.

2. Jesus requires all Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;22:37;23:2-3,23).  We should obey Jesus.

3. The Spirit testifies we should obey Torah (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21).  We should walk in the Spirit.

4. Moses requires Torah (just read Exodus 20 through the rest of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) for Israel.

5. The prophets (e.g., Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.) require Torah.  We should obey the prophets.

6. The Psalms require Torah (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119;etc.)  We should obey the Psalms.

7. The Proverbs require Torah (e.g., Pr. 28:4,7,9).  We should obey the Proverbs.

8. Paul requires Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

9. John requires Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

10. Stephen requires Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

11. Peter requires Torah (citing Lev. 11 at 1Pe.1:16)

12. Hebrews requires Torah (Heb.8:10;10:16).

13. Revelation confirms Torah is properly OBEYED (Rev.12:17;14:12).

14. Torah-disobedience is BAD (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

15. Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  We should be good.

16. Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  We should be holy.

17. Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  We should do righteousness.

18. Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  We should be spiritual.

19. Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:20).  We should not sin, so we should OBEY Torah.

20. The New Covenant is given as Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

21. The CHURCH is ISRAEL (Ac.7:38;Dt. 4:10), so Christians are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Eph.2:12;Rom.9:24-26;11), and Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

22. We will inherit the land promised to us (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29) in conjunction with 100% obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8).

23. Objections to my thesis do not provide a better explanation of all this available evidence.

 

Ok...that's good enough to get started....

Let's study together and share what we've learned!

blessings in Christ....

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Amen @BibleGuy

Although I think you are going to run into a lot of resistance to your views on here. 

Many will passionately insist that you are saying "We are saved by Torah and not Grace alone". Which is not the case.  We are saved by Grace, and serve by Torah. 

But from what I read it looks like you have understood the Scriptures in true context. 

May Yahweh bless you with even further insight. 

Love & Shalom 

[BibleGuy]

2 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Amen @BibleGuy

Although I think you are going to run into a lot of resistance to your views on here. 

Many will passionately insist that you are saying "We are saved by Torah and not Grace alone". Which is not the case.  We are saved by Grace, and serve by Torah. 

But from what I read it looks like you have understood the Scriptures in true context. 

May Yahweh bless you with even further insight. 

Love & Shalom 

Hello friend,

Nice to see we are on the same page...

And you are right....saved by grace through faith....AND we obey Torah too......

After all, it's not faith alone (Jas.2:24).

It's not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

But law (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER for justification...

Anyway...blessings to you!

 

[Jayne]

So do you wear the "Elvis Presley" sideburns as the Torah commands?

If you have mold in your bathroom, do you bring in a priest to ceremonially cleanse your whole house?

I suppose if you would declare what the Torah IS to you in the first place, we could have a discussion.  Because I can't imagine someone believing and teaching that Christians have to obey the entirety of the law.

But then again, your #23 implies you don't seek discussion from all sides.

If I have misconstrued you, let me know.

[BibleGuy]

44 minutes ago, Jayne said:

So do you wear the "Elvis Presley" sideburns as the Torah commands?

If you have mold in your bathroom, do you bring in a priest to ceremonially cleanse your whole house?

I suppose if you would declare what the Torah IS to you in the first place, we could have a discussion.  Because I can't imagine someone believing and teaching that Christians have to obey the entirety of the law.

But then again, your #23 implies you don't seek discussion from all sides.

If I have misconstrued you, let me know.

Hi Jayne!  Thanks for your comments...

And yes...the sides of my beard are pretty much all natural!  (thanks for your concern!)

"If you have mold in your bathroom, do you bring in a priest to ceremonially cleanse your whole house?"

Priests don't presently function....so we must wait until Jesus restores the Levitical priesthood for that (Mal.3:4).  But that's another good question...

"I suppose if you would declare what the Torah IS to you in the first place, we could have a discussion. "

ok....thanks for asking!  It's the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3) which is generally from Exodus 20 on to the end of Exodus, then all Leviticus, all Numbers, and all Deuteronomy.

Ok...there are a few commands in Ex. 12-13 too...but hardly any commands in Genesis....and I doubt Moses originally penned the material in Genesis anyway....

"Because I can't imagine someone believing and teaching that Christians have to obey the entirety of the law."

Yes, my friend....I know it sounds crazy....but Jesus actually requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

So, I'm just trying to do what Jesus teaches and requires...that's all.

"your #23 implies you don't seek discussion from all sides."

Please give me all your concerns!  I'd be happy to learn more about your perspective....

blessings...

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

1 hour ago, Tampered With said:

John 14:15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

¹⁵ “If you [really] love Me, you will keep and obey My commandments.

Yes, my friend.....very true.

We prove our love through OBEDIENCE.

Jesus commanded all Torah (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

John agrees we prove love through OBEDIENCE (1Jn.5:3).

And John did not just make this up....it's straight from Dt. 6!

And Jesus applies Dt. 6 to us (Mt.22:37).

And Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) confirms we prove love for God by obeying ALL (Dt.6:25) Torah.

So, John (1Jn.5:3) was simply re-stating Dt. 6:5,25.

Glad to see we are on the same page....

blessings.....

 

[Ruth Also]

4 hours ago, Jayne said:

So do you wear the "Elvis Presley" sideburns as the Torah commands?

If you have mold in your bathroom, do you bring in a priest to ceremonially cleanse your whole house?

I suppose if you would declare what the Torah IS to you in the first place, we could have a discussion.  Because I can't imagine someone believing and teaching that Christians have to obey the entirety of the law.

But then again, your #23 implies you don't seek discussion from all sides.

If I have misconstrued you, let me know.

Hi Jayne,  Having been close friends with a public health person and hearing the enthusiasm for population health, I found it interesting that God set up a national department of health to help isolate contagious concerns among His people and declare which was clean and which was unclean with the authority to make the unclean separate from the masses.  For some of those concerns we have public and private labs now (such as mold), and although they may not know it, I know it's the same God behind the concern (mold can be dangerous!) whether they know it or not.  I'm glad you mentioned it.  

[Ruth Also]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi Jayne!  Thanks for your comments...

And yes...the sides of my beard are pretty much all natural!  (thanks for your concern!)

"If you have mold in your bathroom, do you bring in a priest to ceremonially cleanse your whole house?"

Priests don't presently function....so we must wait until Jesus restores the Levitical priesthood for that (Mal.3:4).  But that's another good question...

"I suppose if you would declare what the Torah IS to you in the first place, we could have a discussion. "

ok....thanks for asking!  It's the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3) which is generally from Exodus 20 on to the end of Exodus, then all Leviticus, all Numbers, and all Deuteronomy.

Ok...there are a few commands in Ex. 12-13 too...but hardly any commands in Genesis....and I doubt Moses originally penned the material in Genesis anyway....

"Because I can't imagine someone believing and teaching that Christians have to obey the entirety of the law."

Yes, my friend....I know it sounds crazy....but Jesus actually requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

So, I'm just trying to do what Jesus teaches and requires...that's all.

"your #23 implies you don't seek discussion from all sides."

Please give me all your concerns!  I'd be happy to learn more about your perspective....

blessings...

 

The odd thing I found is that when Jesus broke the bonds and set me free, what was happening in my heart was a desire to do what He said - not for the sake of earning this wonderful salvation, but as a joyful response!  

There are so many of the laws that make sense in some way or other, if we just look.  Like women wearing that which pertains to a woman and a man wearing that which pertains to a man.  I mean, who can't do that?  Why even say so?  Well, fast forward to today and you can see where the confusion of the precious roles of gender can really create chaos in our minds.  No matter what transgendering surgeries can do, every DNA molecule is right there telling the truth.  We'd have been better off just celebrating our gender, and there is much to celebrate!  What we wear as male or female is not mandated, but that we present publicly as what we are is mandated, for the good of all.  

I really like the building of a safety fence around the top of your house so nobody can fall off.  Or returning your neighbor's animal.  Those things work.  Who *can't* keep those?  They demonstrate that there is indeed a right way to behave.  And they reinforce that to a degree we often want to shirk, we are our brother's keeper.  Love works no harm against his neighbor.  

Are we "saved" by the blood of the ONE obedient Son in order to worship idols, tell lies, sleep with our neighbor's spouse, murder innocent people?  Well, obviously not.  So we really are "saved" from our past sins in order to finally from the inside out want to serve God acceptably and with the reverence of obedience that shows we trust Him.   

 

 

[Jayne]

2 hours ago, Ruth Also said:

Hi Jayne,  Having been close friends with a public health person and hearing the enthusiasm for population health, I found it interesting that God set up a national department of health to help isolate contagious concerns among His people and declare which was clean and which was unclean with the authority to make the unclean separate from the masses.  For some of those concerns we have public and private labs now (such as mold), and although they may not know it, I know it's the same God behind the concern (mold can be dangerous!) whether they know it or not.  I'm glad you mentioned it.  

Yes, I know all of that.  It was very important for the time as mold will kill you.  God was concerned with all aspects of their lives - their physical lives included.  When I teach the laws for ancient Israel - it's a humbling and fascinating thing to see all the ways God took care of his people.

 

[Jayne]

6 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Please give me all your concerns!  I'd be happy to learn more about your perspective....

blessings...

My concerns are that for people who say that Christians are bound by laws for ancient Israel is that so many of those laws would get you into trouble today if obeyed them explicitly and they serve no purpose for the Christian.

Imagine someone today burning their daughter to death just because she became pregnant out of wedlock.  Or killing their young adult son by throwing rocks at his head if he is recalcitrant.  They would go to jail and deservedly so.  There was a purpose for such harshness at that time.  God was creating a nation through which Jesus Christ would come.  They had to be a pure and holy nation.  Despite the law and God's guiding them - they were an unholy people much of the time.

Wearing clothes made of only one fabric?  That's just not feasible today.  Certain blends of fabrics make for sturdier clothing.  Besides, the purpose of that law and the law of singular crops in a field was to teach separatism.  

Doing these things, killing our daughters when promiscuous.  Killing our sons when rebellious.  Grace does not permit that.

I love the Old Testament and have taught it more than once.  The current group I am studying with is about 2/3's of the way finished.  We are very excited.

To study the laws, and Christians should study the entire Bible including the laws, begats, and the repetitious nature of it,  is to find that here's richness untold in the Old Testament, but not in following all of the laws.

Jesus said to obey his laws.  He gave three of them.

1.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

3.  Love each other as he [Christ] has loved us.

That takes care of it all.