johnthebaptist Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.32 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Roar said: Jesus in the New Testament has a few things to say. Do you follow or obey Him? There are many things left to be Fulfilled/Accomplished in Holy Spirit Inspired Scripture! The present heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20:11 & Revelation 21:1 Jesus Said: Matthew 5:17-19 Amplified Bible (AMP) 17 “Do not think that I came to do away with or undo the Law [of Moses] or the [writings of the] Prophets; I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For I assure you and most solemnly say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke [of the pen] will pass from the Law until all things [which it foreshadows] are accomplished. 19 So whoever breaks one of the least [important] of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them, he will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. John 14:15 Amplified Bible (AMP) 15 “If you [really] love Me, you will keep and obey My commandments. John 10:30 Amplified Bible (AMP) 30 I and the Father are One [in essence and nature]. I believe the point of contention is that I don't think Christians are required to obey all 613 decrees, statutes, ordinances, and commandments the Lord laid out in the Old Testament. I do believe, though, we are required to obey all the commandments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Roar said: And your point in bringing up such a things is what? What part of neither Bible Guy or I are talking about BEING OR PUTTING PEOPLE UNDER THE LAW??? Do you even understand what "putting people under the law means"? It means that a person has "fallen from Grace", first of all. It means that this person is not trusting in JESUS to keep them saved, they are only trusting in Jesus to begin their salvation. THEN, this Legalist, who has fallen from Grace, starts posting and preaching verses and theology trying to prove that a Born Again Christian has all these things to keep doing or they will NOT STAY SAVED. So, all these things.......including the law, and enduring to the end, and holding onto your faith......all this, all these type things are being substituted for JESUS and the Blood Atonement by the Legalist, and that Paul would consider it cursed of God Theology, according to Paul, in Galatians 1:8., is not something that they seem to notice. Its amazes me that Legalist's come to every "christian" forum they can find, and rant about the law, the works, the obedience, the doing doing doing, the Torah, to try to SAVE THEMSELVES, because they have ither never trusted in Christ to begin with, or they have stopped trusting in Christ to keep them saved, and have "fallen from GRACE". And in that epistle to the Galatians, Paul says of their teaching that its heresy, Try to understand this, You dont need the BIBLE to be saved. You need the BLOOD OF JESUS and the Gift of Righteousness, ONLY. Salvation is not : The Cross + The Torah. Its not The Cross + The 10 Commandments. Salvation is God coming to earth, to die for our sin on The Cross, becoming our sin bearer, and give us IN ITS PLACE, God's very own Righteousness. as "The Gift of Righteousness". Jesus ALONE, is the Eternal Life that we HAVE, if we are born again. Edited November 14, 2019 by Behold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 14, 2019 32 minutes ago, Alive said: I realize that I seem to be a tape set on repeat ons these issues, but fundamental principles are the best way to approach things---for me. The answer is revealed when considering the principle of law juxtaposed against the principle of Grace. There is an actual spiritual dynamic attached to each one and they are diametrically opposed. There is a difference between adhering to a thing and believing that you are under its obligation for salvation's sake---however that distinction is nearly beyond us as humans and will always lead to 'slavery'. Hi there! Sounds like you're saying that LAW and GRACE are "diameterically opposed"? Well, GRACE extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6); and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Nu.12:3). Also, Paul who said we are saved by grace (Eph.2:8-9) also said we are justified by doing Torah (Rom.2:13). Jesus is our foundation. Jesus requires Torah (Mt.5:19). I'm thinking that GRACE and LAW pleasantly go together, according to Biblical Scripture. blessings... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.32 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, BibleGuy said: 613 is the wrong number....Dt. 4:15 did not even make the list! I am categorizing them all........but I doubt I'll get 613 for a total count..... I'm not so sure I even have the 10 commandments memorized in order....but if you cite any one, then I'd immediately know it! You could say it's written upon my heart.... blessings.... Wikipedia says there are 613. I'll take that as a ballpark figure. I believe you said we are required to obey them all. I think it's good enough just to obey the commandments. The decrees, statutes, and ordinances pertain to the Jews only, I would argue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: AND, Jesus comes to RESTORE the Levitical covenant of animal sacrifices (Mal.3:4) "as it was in the days of old, as in former years". We have MUCH to anticipate in the future! blessings... Jesus has already paid for the sin of the world with His own blood having obtained eternal redemption for us, already. If i were you, i'd be more excited about the Blood Atonement, then whatever it is that you are trying to believe that you need to obey from the Torah. Jesus is the author of a New Testament. The Torah is NOT this. Jesus is the author of a New Covenant. The TORAH is NOT this.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.58 Reputation: 9,010 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted November 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: Hi there! Sounds like you're saying that LAW and GRACE are "diameterically opposed"? Well, GRACE extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6); and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Nu.12:3). Also, Paul who said we are saved by grace (Eph.2:8-9) also said we are justified by doing Torah (Rom.2:13). Jesus is our foundation. Jesus requires Torah (Mt.5:19). I'm thinking that GRACE and LAW pleasantly go together, according to Biblical Scripture. blessings... Please read what I typed carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 14, 2019 27 minutes ago, johnthebaptist said: Wikipedia says there are 613. I'll take that as a ballpark figure. I believe you said we are required to obey them all. I think it's good enough just to obey the commandments. The decrees, statutes, and ordinances pertain to the Jews only, I would argue. "I believe you said we are required to obey them all. " Sure....to the extent possible in our present diaspora, of course....knowing that 100% obedience will not occur again until AFTER our diaspora ends (Dt.30:1-8). "The decrees, statutes, and ordinances pertain to the Jews only, I would argue." I've never seen a clear proof of that claim..... ALL Torah is for ALL Israel (Mal.4:4), and you are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12). And the Spirit leads us to obey even the ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27)....so I'm not sure why you're trying to distinguish COMMANDS from decrees or statutes or ordinances.... It's ALL part of the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3)...and it ALL passes into the New Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Behold said: Jesus has already paid for the sin of the world with His own blood having obtained eternal redemption for us, already. If i were you, i'd be more excited about the Blood Atonement, then whatever it is that you are trying to believe that you need to obey from the Torah. Jesus is the author of a New Testament. The Torah is NOT this. Jesus is the author of a New Covenant. The TORAH is NOT this.... "Jesus is the author of a New Covenant. The TORAH is NOT this...." Then tell us why Jeremiah states that TORAH ("תּוֹרָה") passes directly into the New Covenant? (Jer.31:33) thanks! blessings... Edited November 14, 2019 by BibleGuy Jer.31:33 citation added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: "Jesus is the author of a New Covenant. The TORAH is NOT this...." Then tell us why Jeremiah states that TORAH ("תּוֹרָה") passes directly into the New Covenant? thanks! blessings... First of all, lets just call it the 'Old Testament", as this "torah" nomenclature, is needlessly redundant. The Torah, is just the Old Testament, so, lets try that. Pick up a KJV, or a NIV< and you have in it the TORAH......Its the OLD TESTAMENT <. Im sure everyone here knows this..., including you. And i noticed that you didnt post the verse in an English Format.... that you are confused about, but that's ok. Here is the reality. Jesus is not the author of keeping yourself saved by teaching that maintaining the Old Testament Law, is part of the Grace Of God. And regarding the Old Testament looking forward into the New Testament, Well sure...... The entire bible is God explaining what is coming next, while He is showing you what is going on at the time. "progressive revelation", is the entire bible. We are currently in the "time of the Gentile", looking forward into what is coming next. The Rapture. That is looking forward into what comes next.. The Great Trib. God always uses "times and seasons", to bring in the next that HE is going to do. The entire bible, is God showing us what He did, what He is now doing, and what He is going to do next. The entire word of GOD, is the Foreknowledge of GOD, laid out as "coming events". So, sure.... Jeremiah looks into the New Testament, just as Genesis looks into it when it said... "the seed of the woman shall crush Satan's head". Genesis 3. YET< non of this is what we are talking about, so lets stay out of the rabbit trail. We are talking about people that come to Christian forums, with 30 second of Jesus to offer, combined with 3000 Hrs of the Law to teach. All Legalists, just like all Mormons, and all JW's, and All Catholics, can talk a good game about Jesus, right until its time to give HIM ALL THE CREDIT DO HIM FOR SAVING US AND KEEPING US SAVED BY HIS BLOOD ATONEMENT, = AND HIS "GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS". But once that TRUTH hits a legalist in the face, then all they have to say is.....>"well, obedience, torah, works, commandments, enduring to the end"......as that is THEIR SAVIOR. BUT ITS NOT MINE. Its not GOD's. And, so, its not the savior of any who are truly born again. Our Savior is not a DEED that WE DO, or a Law that we Keep, or a fresh copy of the Old Testament... ... our SAVIOR IS THE ONE WHO HUNG, BLED, DIED, ROSE AGAIN, AND MADE US RIGHTEOUS THRU OUR FAITH. Same as happened to Abraham, in the OLD TESTAMENT. "JUSTICATION BY FAITH," ALONE, IN JESUS, IS HOW GOD SAVED US. Its seems to me, and its blinding Logic to realize, that if a person a person is born again, they are going to be talking about JESUS, and not trying to substitute something for him, as you find people doing all over "christian" forums, who rant about the law, and similar...... endlessly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted November 14, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Roar said: Christian Pharisees Christian Pharisee(s), is anyone who says (believes, or teaches) that you can lose your salvation. The only people who can say this, who can believe this, have "fallen from Grace". As this person, is teaching that you start with the Cross, then save yourself all the way till your death.. Jesus is no where to be found....... They will show you their on personal list they want you to keep that they teach you must DO< to STAY SAVED. Usually it contains scriptures, torah, 10 commandments....similar.... but mostly it contains their severe self righteousness. Edited November 14, 2019 by Behold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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