Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

36 minutes ago, Behold said:

Do you even understand what "putting people under the law means"?   It means that a person has "fallen from Grace", first of all.   It means that this person is not trusting in JESUS to keep them saved, they are only trusting in Jesus to begin their salvation.   THEN, this Legalist, who has fallen from Grace,  starts posting and preaching verses and theology trying to prove that a Born Again Christian has all these things to keep doing or they will NOT STAY SAVED.

So, all these things.......including the law, and enduring to the end, and holding onto your faith......all this, all these type things are being substituted for JESUS and the Blood Atonement by the Legalist,   and that Paul would consider it cursed of God Theology, according to Paul, in Galatians 1:8., is not something that they seem to notice.

Its amazes me that Legalist's come to every "christian" forum they can find, and rant about the law, the works, the obedience, the doing doing doing, the Torah,  to try to SAVE THEMSELVES, because they have ither never trusted in Christ to begin with, or they have stopped trusting in Christ to keep them saved, and have "fallen from GRACE".  And in that  epistle to the Galatians, Paul says of their teaching that its heresy, 

Try to understand this,   You dont need the BIBLE to be saved.  You need the BLOOD OF JESUS and the Gift of Righteousness, ONLY.

Salvation is not : The Cross + The Torah.   Its not The Cross + The 10 Commandments.     Salvation is God coming to earth, to die for our sin on The Cross, becoming our sin bearer,  and give us IN ITS PLACE, God's very own Righteousness.     as "The Gift of Righteousness".

Jesus ALONE, is the Eternal Life that we HAVE, if we are born again.

 

Hi there!

Thought I'd share a few thoughts, if that's ok....(feel free to ignore me if you're not interested, though.....)

 

"Do you even understand what "putting people under the law means"?"

 

There are TWO laws...

1. The law of disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15)

2. The law of obedience and life (Dt.30:11-15)

 

Of COURSE we are not under the law of disobedience and death.

Jesus expects us to obey and live! (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referring to TORAH)....not disobey and die.

Paul says we are NOT under Law #2 (i.e., the law of sinful disobedience and death, Rom.8:2)....but Paul still requires OBEDIENCE (i.e., Law #1:  2Ti3.:16;1Cor.7:19).

 

"It means that a person has "fallen from Grace", first of all."

You're talking about LAW WITHOUT FAITH, which Paul opposes in Gal. 5:4-5.

Of COURSE it's bad to seek LAW WITHOUT FAITH.  Agreed!

 

"It means that this person is not trusting in JESUS to keep them saved"

Yes, we should trust in Jesus for salvation.

 

"they are only trusting in Jesus to begin their salvation.   "

We should CONTINUE to trust in Jesus who CONTINUES to show us salvation.

 

"THEN, this Legalist, who has fallen from Grace,  starts posting and preaching verses and theology trying to prove that a Born Again Christian has all these things to keep doing or they will NOT STAY SAVED."

Well, it IS possible for religious people to oppose Torah and be cast away (Mt.7:21-23).

It IS possible to move from the RIGHTEOUS category to the WICKED category (Eze.18) based on actions you DO.

So, it IS true that we should obey Jesus who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19).

 

" the law, and enduring to the end, and holding onto your faith......all this, all these type things are being substituted for JESUS and the Blood Atonement by the Legalist,"

Actually no.  It's not SUBSTITUTION....it's ALL OF THE ABOVE!

FAITH AND GRACE AND THE SPIRIT AND LOVE AND JESUS AND THE FATHER AND THE SPIRIT AND THE BLOOD AND ATONEMENT AND PERSEVERANCE ALL TOGETHER!

 

"Paul would consider it cursed of God Theology, according to Paul, in Galatians 1:8., is not something that they seem to notice."

Agreed.  So let's not replace one thing for another....let's do ALL that the Bible requires!  (including all Torah, Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3)

 

"doing doing doing, the Torah,  to try to SAVE THEMSELVES,"

I can't speak for others....but JESUS is the one who saves (Mt.1:21).

And we ALSO save ourselves and others (1Ti.4:16).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

""fallen from GRACE".  And in that  epistle to the Galatians, Paul says of their teaching that its heresy, "

Yes, it's BAD to "fall from grace".  And, "fallen from grace" refers to those who seek justification by law WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5).

Of COURSE law without faith is bad.

That's why Paul requires justification by law (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

The Galatians were trying to do law WITHOUT FAITH....and that's REALLY BAD.

Paul requires BOTH....law AND faith...TOGETHER.

 

"You need the BLOOD OF JESUS and the Gift of Righteousness, ONLY."

Sounds good!  But as we mature in Christ, we grow in faithful obedience to ALL His commands....including Mt. 5:19, which requires ALL Torah.

 

"Salvation is not : The Cross + The Torah. "

Sounds good!  You can be saved through the work on the cross....even if you never even heard the word "Torah"!

But as we mature in Christ, we grow in faithful obedience to ALL His commands...including Mt. 5:19, which requires ALL Torah.

 

"Its not The Cross + The 10 Commandments.     "

Sounds good!  You can be saved through the work on the cross....even if you never even heard of the 10 Commandments.

But as we mature in Christ, we grow in faithful obedience to ALL His commands...including Mt. 5:19, which requires ALL Torah.

 

"Salvation is God coming to earth, to die for our sin on The Cross, becoming our sin bearer,  and give us IN ITS PLACE, God's very own Righteousness.     as "The Gift of Righteousness"."

Sounds good!  Righteousness is a GIFT (Rom.5:17).

But righteousness is also something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

BOTH concepts are true.

Righteousness is a GIFT.

Righteousness is something we DO.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

I guess that's my theme today!  (both...together....)

 

"Jesus ALONE, is the Eternal Life that we HAVE, if we are born again."

Very true!  And that Jesus teaches that we should obey the Torah of Moses (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.6:40;10:25-28;etc.)

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

53 minutes ago, Alive said:

Please read what I typed carefully.

Hi there!

I think I'm missing something....what were you talking about?

Thanks....

blessings....

 

[Behold]

13 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

 

But righteousness is also something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) .

You can't be a child of the Devil, if you are born again.  So, your misuse of the verse is typical of a Legalist.

A child of the Devil, is a person who is not born again.  as these do the "lusts of THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL"< According to Jesus. (but not according to you).....   so, the Father of the BORN AGAIN, is GOD.

Not the same Father, so, your scripture twisting is getting wider and deeper, and im sure it'll only get worse.

Thats how Legalism always turns out.

But what is worse, is that you say that righteousness is something that we do, as our means of keeping ourselves saved.

This is not true..

Let me show you why.   

"all our righteousness is as a filthy rag".   That is Paul talking, you can find the verse in Romans.

And what is more, is that.....if we had any righteousness of our own, as you claim we can have and should..... then Jesus could have saved himself from some PAIN AND DEATH, by not having to come down here as the Bread from Heaven to give us the "gift of righteousness".

Fella, we have NO righteousness.  We can't get any of ourselves.    So, we can't practice what we can't achieve, and dont have.

The Apostle Paul said of himself that he is "BLAMELESS" regarding keeping the law.  Philippians 3:6.  (You're not.)   So, if Paul is blameless, then why did he say all HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that you say is so important, is "dung".  is manure.? in view of God's Righteousness?

Its because it IS.

Paul said the only Righteousness that matters, that matters to God, is CHRIST's Righteousness, that you can't achieve by your LIFESTYLE.     But we can HAVE as "the Gift of Righteousness".

Edited November 14, 2019 by Behold

[Tzephanyahu]

2 hours ago, johnthebaptist said:

read there are 613 commandments, laws, decrees, statutes, and ordinances in the Bible. Do you have them memorized?

Shalom @johnthebaptist

There are not 613 brother. Nowhere near. That's a Jewish/Pharisee division of the Torah which is way off the point. 

Love & Shalom 

[BibleGuy]

54 minutes ago, Roar said:

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on how one looks at it, I don't believe we have that much time before Yeshua's Second Coming or at least I hope we don't! At the rate Bible prophecies are being fulfilled both in and around Israel throughout the Middle East I personally believe it will be in this generation. Either way I hope to be there either looking up or looking down.   

You just might be right!

 

[BibleGuy]

25 minutes ago, Roar said:

As usual when someone has nothing to really refute what we say they revert to calling us Judaizers which is basically what is going on. They are not actually listening to what we are saying but have their fingers in their ears figuring out what they plan to say next.

Well, yes, Judaizing is bad.....remember Peter's hypocrisy? I'm sure we agree that was bad....

Anyway....blessings....

 

[Alive]

31 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

I think I'm missing something....what were you talking about?

Thanks....

blessings....

 

I am sorry you didn’t understand what I wrote.

I am concerned of course, but I wasn’t directing it at you—rather other folks who may be reading and especially immature ones who are subject to confusion.

The Lord knows.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Alive

[Tzephanyahu]

2 hours ago, Roar said:

And your point in bringing up such a things is what?

What part of neither Bible Guy or I are talking about BEING OR PUTTING PEOPLE UNDER THE LAW???

Shalom @Roar

Don't engage will everyone who posts. Learn to see the genuine questions from the provocative nonsense. 

And if some are feeling they are destined to be without Torah, let them. As I hope they feel and respect the same with us also. 

There's no need for speaking sharply to each other on matters which we'll never agree upon, right? 

Love & Shalom 

[Tzephanyahu]

1 minute ago, Roar said:

Yes, wise words indeed as you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I have been guilty of trying to drown a few though. 

Haha, me too. However, this forum soon taught me that there are four types of response you'll get on here towards Torah:

1. Agreement 

2. Apprehensive but Interested

3. Apathetic 

3. Aggressive

Some in the second category can come across contentious,when actually they are sincerely trying to understand the what, the how and the why.

Those in the fourth category mask their aggression in accusations separating you from Messiah, use trick questions and cherry picking your responses, often twisting the context - as they surely do with the Scriptures. 

Rrcognise those in the fourth category by their fruit - their words and attitude. Then, avoid such people. Don't even bother reading their replies but instead look to respond to those in the first three categories only.

Otherwise, those in the fourth will lead your responses to where you don't want to go, and you get in danger of sin on the account, because of their crafty provocations. But it won't always be this way in the Body, brother. 

Love & Shalom 

[BibleGuy]

19 minutes ago, Behold said:

You can't be a child of the Devil, if you are born again.  So, your misuse of the verse is typical of a Legalist.

A child of the Devil, is a person who is not born again.  as these do the "lusts of THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL"< According to Jesus. (but not according to you).....   so, the Father of the BORN AGAIN, is GOD.

Not the same Father, so, your scripture twisting is getting wider and deeper, and im sure it'll only get worse.

Thats how Legalism always turns out.

But what is worse, is that you say that righteousness is something that we do, as our means of keeping ourselves saved.

This is not true..

Let me show you why.   

"all our righteousness is as a filthy rag".   That is Paul talking, you can find the verse in Romans.

And what is more, is that.....if we had any righteousness of our own, as you claim we can have and should..... then Jesus could have saved himself from some PAIN AND DEATH, by not having to come down here as the Bread from Heaven to give us the "gift of righteousness".

Fella, we have NO righteousness.  We can't get any of ourselves.    So, we can't practice what we can't achieve, and dont have.

The Apostle Paul said of himself that he is "BLAMELESS" regarding keeping the law.  Philippians 3:6.  (You're not.)   So, if Paul is blameless, then why did he say all HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that you say is so important, is "dung".  is manure.? in view of God's Righteousness?

Its because it IS.

Paul said the only Righteousness that matters, that matters to God, is CHRIST's Righteousness, that you can't achieve by your LIFESTYLE.     But we can HAVE as "the Gift of Righteousness".

Hi there!  Thanks for writing....

"You can't be a child of the Devil, if you are born again. "

Agreed....those are two DIFFERENT families for sure....

 

"So, your misuse of the verse is typical of a Legalist."

Not sure why you say I "misuse" the verse....or maybe you were referring to another person posting here?

I simply cited 1Jn.3:10 it as evidence that John places SOME people into the category of "child of the devil".

Now, WHICH people does John place into the "CHILD OF THE DEVIL" category?

Well, we see that those who do NOT DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.3:10) would be included in the "child of the devil" category.

That's the point I was trying to make....and I don't think I'm misusing that verse at all.....

 

And why do you insinuate that I might be a "Legalist"?  After all, legalism is bad!  Or maybe you were referring to another person posting here?

LEGALISM may be defined as SEEKING SALVATION BY WORKS WITHOUT FAITH....and of course, that's unbiblical.....(Gal.5:4-5)

So, I OPPOSE legalism.....and I'm glad to see that you evidently also oppose legalism.....although, you might have a different definition of LEGALISM in mind....

 

"But what is worse, is that you say that righteousness is something that we do, as our means of keeping ourselves saved."

Well, I'm not the one who said that righteousness is "something we do"...JOHN said righteousness is something we DO ("ποιέω", 1 Jn.2:29;3:7,10).

Jesus also describes righteousness as something that we DO in obedience to even the least of the Torah commandments (Mt.5:19-20).

Jesus also applies Dt. 6 to us...and Dt. 6:25 confirms that Torah-obedient righteousness is something we DO.

"all our righteousness is as a filthy rag".   That is Paul talking, you can find the verse in Romans."

Yes, righteousness is like a filthy rag IF you are walking in INIQUITIES (from Is. 64:6)....so don't walk in iniquity!  OBEY Torah!

 

"if we had any righteousness of our own, as you claim we can have and should..... then Jesus could have saved himself from some PAIN AND DEATH, by not having to come down here as the Bread from Heaven to give us the "gift of righteousness"."

JESUS paid the price that only JESUS could pay.....

Yes, we receive the free gift of righteousness.....(Rom.5:17)

BUT!  Righteousness is also something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7,10).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

FREE GIFT.

AND SOMETHING WE DO.

By the way, NOTHING we do is good enough apart from the free gift!

That's why we need BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"we have NO righteousness. "

Then you just opposed 1Jn.2:29;3:7,10.  Please stand corrected by this.  Thanks.

 

"The Apostle Paul said of himself that he is "BLAMELESS" regarding keeping the law.  Philippians 3:6. "

Paul was referring to the time BEFORE he KNEW CHRIST.  That's NOT what Paul requires of us.

Paul requires that we obey all Torah (2Ti.3:16) AND that we follow Christ (1Cor.11:1).

BOTH. 

TOGETHER.

 

" (You're not.) "

Says who?  Jesus said we can be perfect (Mt.5:48) and that it's easy! (Mt.11:30).

 

"So, if Paul is blameless, then why did he say all HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that you say is so important, is "dung".  is manure.? in view of God's Righteousness?"

Because I'm not talking about Paul's faithless "righteousness" prior to Paul's faith in Christ.

I'm talking about Paul's Torah-obedient righteousness which he requires WITH faith in Christ.  You've confused these two.

Paul says ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior in righteousness, and Paul ALSO expects us to have faith in Christ (Rom.5:1).

Paul requires LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER, for justification.

Paul even says that TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith which he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

So don't confuse these two DIFFERENT things:

1. Paul's worthless faithless "righteousness" prior to faith in Christ,

2. Paul's valuable faithful Torah-obedience in Christ AFTER faith in Christ.

 

"Paul said the only Righteousness that matters, that matters to God, is CHRIST's Righteousness, that you can't achieve by your LIFESTYLE.    "

Wrong.  You've ignored Hab. 2:4 which Paul quotes repeatedly (e.g., Rom. 1:17).

Remember?

Paul says we live by FAITH (citing "אֱמוּנָה" in Hab. 2:4).

And what is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" by which Paul says we must live?  ANSWER:  TORAH!  (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps. 119:30,86,138 for proof of the TORAH-UPHOLDING conception of "אֱמוּנָה" Paul upholds).

After all, Paul APPLIES the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16), and the Psalms require TORAH (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119;etc...).

Surely you won't disobey Paul?

Agreed?

 

Moreover, Paul says the church is built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES (1Cor.12:28)....

and Apostle Paul requires all Torah (1Cor.7:19)

and Apostle John requires TORAH (1Jn.5:3)

And Apostle Peter even applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly (1Pe.1:16)

and Apostle Stephen requires all Torah (Ac.6:10-15)

And Apostle John says righteousness is something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7,10)....

 

So these are all problems with your position....

Please refine your position to come into better alignment with the Scriptures I've set before you...

Thanks. 

 

blessings...