Should Christians Obey Torah?

[Behold]

1 hour ago, Roar said:

Neither I nor Bible Guy have said such a thing so to who do you refer?

Am i talking to the same person, who is pretending to be both?

Just curious...

So, to answer your question, let me ask you one, and then you'll know my answer.

Here is a verse, and i'll explain it., and you tell me if you agree with what i say.

Romans 4:8.   "Blessed is the born again person, to whom God will never again charge to them, their sin".

This verse says, that God does not hold a born again child of God accountable for their sin, in Eternity, because He has judged Christ for all their sin on the Cross, on Earth.

And because of this, the Law for the Born Again, is not the Torah, or the 10 commandments, because the born again are NOT UNDER THE LAW,.... but they are under GRACE.

Grace is the New Testament.  Its the New Covenant between redeemed man and Holy God, that Jesus Himself obtained for us.

So, because this is true, .. that the Born again are REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW....... then.. anyone who is on a Christian forum, or  in a Christian Pulpit,  who is trying to convince a Christian to believe that they need to be doing the OLD TESTAMENT LAW, to be found  Righteous before God, .. is not only teaching a LIE, but are themselves fallen from Grace.

Tell me, do you believe this?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Behold

[BibleGuy]

30 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @Roar

Don't engage will everyone who posts. Learn to see the genuine questions from the provocative nonsense. 

And if some are feeling they are destined to be without Torah, let them. As I hope they feel and respect the same with us also. 

There's no need for speaking sharply to each other on matters which we'll never agree upon, right? 

Love & Shalom 

Yes, I try to keep cool and friendly....and learn together with others....

blessings....

 

[Tzephanyahu]

11 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Yes, I try to keep cool and friendly....and learn together with others....

blessings....

 

Yeah man, its easy too lose sight of when our passions for Him get fired up. 

You do such a great job with fielding questions with references too. Awesome man. But I think your wasting your time or rather getting distracted by nonsense. 

Ignore those who know-it-all and don't let your message and heart get sidetracked. Every conflict there is an audience and if your words don't fail us, our attitude will.  As I've learned. 

Let them have the word or last "devastating question that you can't answer, can you!?" hehe. Let them have it. If they want the win, give them the win and your coat and wave goodbye.  They can go on their merry way then and you can get back to reaching those with genuine interest and questions. 

Keep up the great work. 

Love & Shalom 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Tzephanyahu

[Behold]

19 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

 

I'm talking about Paul's Torah-obedient righteousness which he requires WITH faith in Christ.  

 

You just stated that you understand that Paul said that "torah obedient" righteousness, is DUNG, is MANURE.    Yet, here you are in 50 posts, teaching that this is not what He said.  And in fact, you are teaching exactly as Christian Obedience,  exactly what He said is worthless.......  The TORAH, = THE LAW.

Law Keeping, (Torah) is Worthless to make you righteousness., is what He said, and its unfortunate that you disagree with what He teaches and keep posting your unbelief.

Ok i heard you.  And i appreciate that you keep saying the same thing over and over, Ok?   And i know you want this Thread to keep going forever, while you keep teaching that The Cross is not enough, and that the Torah is the missing part.   But, God didn't create "Justification by Faith", as needing anything else.   Not the Torah, Not Water Baptism, Not enduring to the end, not anything OTHER THEN The Blood of Jesus.

Think of it like this.... If the Torah could make you righteous, then why did Jesus have to DIE?

You dont see it?

Then try this... Put Jesus back into heaven, and then get your Torah and see if you can do what it says and make God accept you without the Blood of Jesus.

Think you can?  You must, because you are trying to make people believe that the LAW is a part of God's Righteousness.

It isn't.

All the law does is show us that we are sinners in need of a Savior.  And all our attempts at "holy living", after we are saved, are just as worthless to save us and keep us saved, as it was before Christ Saved us.

"Behold are you saying that we should not live according to the 10 commandments or the general rules of the Old Testament".........No, im saying that you think that trying to do this, is a part of the Blood Atonement that redeems a person.

It isnt.   Its just Legalism.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Behold

[Alive]

I perceive there is something very wrong going on here.

I would remind all that the Lord is indeed paying attention.

THere is no mixing of the principle of law with the principle of grace.

You live in one or the other.

I truly fear for you that try to teach such. What is your motivation?

My Lord suffered horribly to purchase my salvation and set me free from bondage.

Would you insnare me again?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Alive

[Tzephanyahu]

20 minutes ago, Alive said:

My Lord suffered horribly to purchase my salvation and set me free from bondage.

Would you insnare me again?

Shalom @Alive

I think things have become a bit complicated in the thread at the moment. 

No one is saying Torah and Grace = salvation. Though, I can see why you might think that because of how words are being misinterpreted. 

It's probably easier to think of it like this. We are saved by Messiah from the bondage of sin. Now we are free to observe Torah or not. If you want to, brilliant - you'll benefit much and be singing Psalm 119 with all your heart. But it doesn't add to your salvation one bit. Likewise you are free not to follow Torah and your salvation still be in Messiah.

But some on here are suggesting we are implying Torah AND Grace. A fallacy.  Torah obedience cannot add to your salvation, whatsoever. Alas, some people will continually and conveniently miss such statements - instead seeking the worse in their brothers rather than the best. That fruit is easy to see when you look past the content of their posts next to the attitude. 

I hope you see where I'm coming from. 

Love & Shalom 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Tzephanyahu

[Tzephanyahu]

2 minutes ago, Roar said:

deliberately feigning ignorance seeking to entrap you.

If that was the case, they could only operate when you feed them.

But I'm sure this post can still turn around! And besides, who would really have a vendetta against Torah, that would be a strange passion to pursue in a forum before God!

I think if anyone has negative things to say about Torah, it is better not speak at all.  Why lay up many words to account for on that Great Day? We have so many to account for as it is!  It's a sure way to be seen as "least in the Kingdom", right?

Love & Shalom 

[Blood Bought 1953]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

No, I'm not "tzephanyahu".....I'd think you could tell that by now, examining our distinct use of language and style.

 

"We, the born again, are not under the law, but we are under Grace. "

True....we are NOT under the law of disobedience and death (Dt.30:11-15)....but under the law of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3) and LIFE (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referring to TORAH).

And GRACE extends to the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6); and HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Ex. 33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3;Nu.12:3).

 

" So, its best to not try to use a Christian Forum to preach legalism"

My friend, I OPPOSE legalism.  After all, LEGALISM may be defined as TRYING TO OBEY RULES TO BE SAVED APART FROM FAITH.

And the Bible CLEARLY opposes legalism....and I likewise oppose legalism.

Thanks for bringing up this important point, though.

 

"which is the heretic's  teaching that Jesus + the Law = Salvation."

Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28)....I hope you're not calling me a heretic for quoting Lk.10:25-28!

And HERESY includes the false teachings of false prophets (2Pe.2:1) who OPPOSE Torah (Dt.13:1-5).

So of COURSE I oppose anti-Torah heretics.

Now, I think we agree we should obey Jesus....but Jesus requires ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19)....so what, precisely, is your objection to Mt.5:19?

 

"The law came by Moses, BUT, GRACE AND TRUTH CAME BY JESUS THE CHRIST"

And GRACE was present in Ex. 33:13 which inspired Moses to seek God's WAYS (Ex.33:13) which are contained in TORAH (1Ki.2:3).

And TORAH is TRUTH (Ps.119:142).

And Jesus requires TORAH (Mt.5:19).

So the GRACE which leads us to seek Torah comes by Jesus Christ.

And the Truth of Torah is required by Jesus Christ.

Agreed!

 

"The law was not given to establish righteousness"

Sure it was (Dt. 6:25).  Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37).

 

" but rather to show us our unrighteousness, SO THAT, we can turn to and kneel at the Cross, and receive the Gift of Righteousness from God, which is our Salvation."

Yes....the law exposes our sin....and our need for a savior.....but shall we Christians now disobey Torah?  Of course not!

STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means STOP DISOBEYING TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7) which means OBEY TORAH!

 

And be careful!

Righteousness is something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt. 5:20).

 

"The Law can't save.   "

Those who long for salvation delight in TORAH (Ps.119:174)....and PAUL applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col. 3:16).

 

"Keeping the Law can't save.     Only JESUS Saves."

Technically, keeping the law requires obedience to Jesus (Dt.18:15) who saves us and tells us to obey Torah (Mt.5:19).

So, in this sense, Torah-obedience leads to eternal life in Christ who requires Torah.

JESUS and SALVATION and TORAH, thus, all properly go TOGETHER.

Remember?  ALL Scripture (thus including Torah!  2Ti.3:16) should rebuke and correct and train your behavior in RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It all goes TOGETHER.

 

Of COURSE ONLY JESUS SAVES.....but you can't separate Jesus from Torah!  Jesus IS the Torah! (Jn.1:14).

 

"Christians, just like Abraham, are justified by faith, without the deeds (without doing), the Law."

OOPS!  Christians should be like ABRAHAM who obeyed God's CHARGE, COMMANDMENTS, STATUTES, and LAWS (Ge.26:5).

Careful!

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t think will be pleased by the latest version of Legalism.....JudaAnity.....Paul said that adding Law to Grace automatically cancels Grace. Grace is the only thing that ever saved anybody.....I wouldn’t cancel it away so readily... “ By GRACE you are saved......”

[Tzephanyahu]

7 minutes ago, Roar said:

I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole and a five foot extension as it seems to me that horse has been beat to DEATH.      

Haha, high five Roar. 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

Its like the Cross never happened.The Cross changed everything.It ushered in the Age Of Grace.An Age where all this stuff some are obsessed with don’t amount to a hill of beans.Faith in Paul’s Gospel found in 1Cor15:1-4 is what saves today .Rest In the Gospel alone as God Commands and paradoxically, you will “ find” yourself keeping the Law better the you ever could when you did it out of fear and/ or obligation.Torah means little to me,  is that I have found something better- God’s Indwelling Spirit.The very second you realize God has freed you to do what you want, will be the same second you realize your “ wants” have lined up with His. I suppose you must live it to understand it.I am free to do what I want. Carnally-Minded people just can’t understand how that could be possible without people falling head-long into sin and debauchery.The reality of living the life of freedom God wants us to live is just the opposite of what almost everybody thinks.Now that I can do what I want , the only thing I want to do is live a life that pleases my Savior.Funny how that works.