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Should Christians Obey Torah?


BibleGuy

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Please debate the subject and not the person. This point forward, doing so in this thread will see you removed from it.

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So @BibleGuy & @Roar... When did it dawn on you about digging into Torah and how? Were you always following it when you believed or after research or did someone share with you? How did you both get here basically. 

(I'm off to bed now so forgive me I don't respond straight away.)

Love & Shalom 

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LEGALISM may be defined as SEEKING SALVATION BY WORKS WITHOUT FAITH....and of course, that's unbiblical.....(Gal.5:4-5)

 Very subtle and very misleading......you can’t just make up stuff here.....too much Bible Knowledge here for one to get away with this stuff......The Judaizers  NEVER excluded Faith —- they added to it! Which is what we  are seeing here......it never ends.....you guys are just the latest to come along.....If history holds true, you won’t stay long..... I’ve seen Legalist rationalize their Doctrine 50 different ways since hanging out here....it’s all essentially  the same stuff— “ Sure ,Jesus Saves .......BUT!”  One little word could mean the difference between Heaven and Hell. It really “ is” like the song you falsely sing. “ NOTHING  BUT THE BLOOD”. No matter how crafty one can be, if you disagree with that song, you put yourself in extreme jeopardy.Adding to the Gospel with “ Jesus Saves BUT” makes one “ Fall from Grace” and such are “ Severed From The Cross”.Teachers disagree on the ramifications of these sad states.Maybe it’s a crippled Christian Walk, Perhaps it’s damnation. Why take the gamble? Pray that God blesses you and shows how to rest in the Finished Work Of The Cross—- Plus NOTHING.I hope Newbies can recognize craftiness when they see it....Satan is famous for being subtle .....

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Sorry for any misunderstandings, if there were any....

Lets get this out of the way......as it’s ALL I need to know......Do you Believe what the song maintains? NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD ......N O T H I N G ! A simple yes or no will suffice. I am talking about Salvation ONLY! Thanking you in advance....

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3 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @johnthebaptist

There are not 613 brother. Nowhere near. That's a Jewish/Pharisee division of the Torah which is way off the point. 

Love & Shalom 

I don't have time to count them. I'm just going by Wikipedia.

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2 hours ago, Roar said:

I have less tolerance for those that seek to entrap and belittle the Word of God they say they believe in when they show they either have a total lack of understanding of the Bible while acting as if they do or are deliberately feigning ignorance seeking to entrap you. Perhaps it is because I have dealt with such so many years longer than most alive today in this country, have been alive, that I so often think about Matthew 7:1-8 when reading some people's posts here (being Christians this should not be the case). :b:

The Jesus That talked about “ not judging others” ( your Matt 7 verses ) is the same Jesus that later said that it was the responsibility of Believers to judge others in His Church.It is  God’s job to judge those outside the Church.Paul says to prove ourselves to be “ good students of the Word ....Rightly dividing it” so we don’t  have to be ashamed when somebody that actually knows the Word comes along.Nobody is trying to “ entrap” Anybody here.Some are just better students.I would  think that anyone that has “ dealt with such so many years longer than most alive “ would be aware of such a basic Bible verse.

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6 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"No collections of wisdom and rules are gonna save anybody ."

Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"The Torah leads to the Savior "

True (Dt. 18:15).

And the Savior points right back to the Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28;etc.)

 

"That is it’s main purpose and value."
Well....there are MANY purposes!

Remember?

 Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  Be good...so obey Torah!

Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  Be holy...so OBEY Torah!

Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO righteousness.....so OBEY Torah!

Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  BE Spiritual.  So obey Torah!

Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH!

The New Covenant is given as Torah (Jer.31:33)...so should we disobey that very Torah?  Of course not!

 

"The Law artificially points to and tries to control behavior that comes naturally to a New Heart that is motivated by Love."

Well ok....but LOVE requires TORAH-OBEDIENCE (1Jn.5:3;Jn.14;15;Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25).

 

"Paul said that the Law was “ weak” in that it has no power to save"

Sure...law WITHOUT FAITH is rather useless....

That's why Paul require Both!

We are justified by LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER....

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas. 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

" why not go to where the Power is at — the Gospel!"

Great!  The Gospel is the word of faith preached by Paul....

Hey what's this?  TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"Paul also said that the Law was good. IF one knows how to use it."

It's pretty simple:  Do you OBEY or DISOBEY?

(Hint:  Torah-disobedience is REALLY bad....Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42)

So obey!

 

"The Law served its purpose in my life......it shut me up and showed me I had to have a Savior.Im done with it .I let the Holy Spirit guide me now."

OOPS!  That very Spirit leads you to OPPOSE the flesh which disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7,13)...thus the Spirit leads you to OBEY Torah!

Again, the Spirit testifies you should OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16).

Again, the Spirit leads us to obey ALL TORAH ORDINANCES (Eze.36:27).

In the New Covenant, the Spirit leads us to obey Torah "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21 cited by Paul at Rom.11:26-27).

 

" I obey more laws by accident now than I ever did trying to live by a Code."

well....that's good!

But you won't accidentally obey the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19) unless you actually study Torah and grow in faithful obedience to it....

blessings....

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry but this is false teaching. You are opposing the gospel. We are commanded to love one another through grace. The torah condemns.  The blood of jesus justified us. And if we are justified then we are more then just forgiven.  We are in the same rights as Jesus. We will enter through the gates into the city of God freely. 

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And you cannot be sanctified by the law. We are sanctified by the holy spirit. Put on the new man. Created in the likeness of the creator in righteousness. The just shall live by faith.

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12 minutes ago, Roar said:

Refer to my last post.

 

Why do you refuse to answer my simple question......do you not know that your non-reply speaks volumes? By contrast, I will answer anything you got......without hesitation...

Your “ last post” is erroneous as is possible .Read Galations before you put it forward as a debating point. The Legalists Of Paul’s day did not say to do away with Faith in Christ.Belief in Christ was acknowledged as necessary — it just wasn’t sufficient to save— one had to be circumcised and obey the Laws Of Moses to get Saved.They added to the Gospel-they never said to abandon Faith.Its the same old Hog-Wash...... “ Jesus Saves.......BUT!”  

I will inquire one more time.....can one be saved by believing in “ NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD” ? 

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7 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

"The just shall live by faith"

That's Paul quoting Hab. 2:4 referring to אֱמוּנָה

What is this way of "אֱמוּנָה" by which Paul says we should live?  Answer: TORAH! (see "אֱמוּנָה" in Ps.119:30,86,138).

 

"The law is not of faith"

Of COURSE faithless law is not of faith!

BUT!

Jesus says faith is of Torah (Mt.23:23).

Again, Paul says TORAH (Dt.30:14) is the very word of FAITH he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

After all, Torah REQUIRES faith (Dt. 18:15;32:20)....so of COURSE faith and Torah go together!

So let's not confuse FAITHLESS-Torah-obedience (which Paul opposes) with the FAITHFUL-Torah-obedience (which Paul requires).

 

"We are to keep the commandments of the new testament."

Great!  Then obey ALL TORAH! (2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Heb.8:10;10:16)....even the SMALLEST of Torah commands (Mt.5:19).

 

"Not the laws of the old testament."

OOPS!  The SAME Torah of Moses passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10).

 

"Do you keep the seventh day Sabbath?"

My employer gives me the day off...

 

Do you keep Jesus' words? (Mt.5:19)

blessings...

 

Do you keep Paul's words? He got it from Jesus. If you want to live by the law you have to keep it perfect. Good luck .

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