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Should Christians Obey Torah?


BibleGuy

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Gal. 5:7   You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

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Shalom @Willa

12 hours ago, Willa said:

It was a works based salvation like the song says: Making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice".  So I tried to establish my own righteousness which was the root cause of my lack of growth, lack of love, and subsequent backsliding.  So I know the truth in the book of Galatians because I lived it.

Ahh I see.  By the way the "making a list, checking it twice" was great and funny analogy.  

Yes, I used to be a full-on Messianic follower.  When I first learned about the importance of Torah, I went to extreme the other way and started to try and carve out my own righteousness - even doubting my salvation when not following certain commandments.  I was so foolish back then...

The Father took me back to basics - love, mercy, forgiveness and peace.  For the Torah is fulfilled in these things.  Then I was was able to read and follow Torah with a new kind of freedom and new "eyes".  The Torah was no longer a list of do's and don'ts, but almost conceptual.  Much like the Messiah's beatitudes.  For the Messiah wasn't commanding us to turn the other cheek and walk an extra mile per se.  That was the instruction, which is good and true, but it was more of principle He was teaching us within those examples.  Torah is much the same way.  Albeit, one needs the Spirit to guide them in such matters.  Without the Spirit, the Torah is very heavy.

13 hours ago, Willa said:

You claim that the verses I previously quoted are out of context.  They are in perfect context historically for many Jews who had converted to Christ were returning to Judaism.  

Yes, it was in context back in those times and the Jews were absolutely trying to convert Christians to Jews with the commitment of circumcision.  However, on this forum, no one is saying or implying as much (at least I think!)  But there is a certain contingent of members on this forum that try hard to twist words and accuse us of the opposite.  I don't think you are one of them at all.  But such poster's end up derailing a thread and making it appear as if it's a matter of Torah vs Grace - so of course, many innocent believers will choose the side of Grace, and quite rightly so.  

Sadly, within this repetitive battle which was being fought even in Paul's day, the wonderful wisdom in the Torah that can help us all refine our walk is disrespected, abased and sometimes even outright insulted.  Again, I don't think you are within that group that do such things.

13 hours ago, Willa said:

It was then that  I submitted and surrendered to Christ as my Lord and Master, was then filled with the Holy Spirit and again started walking in the Spirit.

Amen! And therefore you are a sister of mine. I'll stand with you and be there when you call.  

I hope you don't misunderstand my previous post.  I respect you and show deference to you my sister, for I still have much to learn and consider myself an amateur in the Word.  But I am a sensitive soul really and so when I see a thread to fall into tumult, as it often does in here, it upsets me.  And so, when I see posts that have the potential to exasperate the situation, I speak out to try and counter it or minimise the potential catalyst effect.  This is what I done with your post.  But know it was done with my concern for others without ill-will towards you.  I realise now you were replying to the OP, but the thread when ridiculous thereafter and your reply came at a heated moment (people getting banned, insults being thrown, blah blah blah).  I see now that you didn't see all of that when you posted, so forgive me. *digital hug*

Love & Shalom   

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12 hours ago, Alive said:

No thank you. I think this has been enough.

I won't continue to discuss this with you or the others that promote the same doctrine.

Perhaps, I have been foolish.

I hope the best for you and the others.

Shalom @Alive

I'm sorry to hear this has been too much.  I think the matter has got massively out of hand, to tell the truth.  From both sides, as it always does.

I hope you leave in peace brother and, if there is any question you have on the subject, please feel free to ask me.  I don't imagine you would want to after all of this, but my door is open.  

I don't think you're foolish.  I totally understand your position. So let's be at peace.  

Torah observance does secure your salvation more - it adds nothing to salvation.  I just choose to follow it where I can but I don't disregard a brother or sister that doesn't!  Therefore, if that statement seems reasonable to you, I hope we can move on as brothers in the Lord, in peace.

Again, I'm sorry that this thread hasn't been beneficial and maybe even pushed you further from considering Torah.   With the passions of both sides of the argument blazing strong, the whole point gets overlooked.  Then the matter just feels heavy, confusing, wordy and "icky"!

Love & Shalom

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15 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

I was raised in various Christian churches since birth....

So a deep and abiding love for God and the Bible was always present....

 

But it was partly Bill Cloud's "fault"!....he made a very simple (and profound) statement at a small home fellowship Bible study one day......

He said: "WE ARE ISRAEL".

Wow.  I wonder if Bill knows it had such a profound effect on you.  Incredible.  Sometimes the things we say off the cuff can have ripple effects through time, without us realising.

For me it started when I met a believer who referred to Jesus as Yeshua.  I was like "What? What are you going on about?".  Once I learned that the Name had been changed, I wondered why it wasn't a commonly known thing in the Church - it may have been I could have just been ignorant.  So, I went to the Messianic fellowship that they were from and my mind was blown away.  I felt like I had to relearn a lot, and I'm glad I did.

That said, rather than considering myself a Messianic, I refer to myself as a Christian - for the sake of unity, understanding and balance.  The Messianic group I attended became legalistic, predictably, and I left it many years ago.  

That said, the good teaching from the Messianic movement and the balance of Grace from Christians, helped me to see the big picture. The narrow path...

The term narrow path in Scripture actually means a "compressed path", as in pressed upon from both sides.  I believe that on one side is Torah and the other side is Grace.  Now, the further into the Torah you go, the more legalistic you can become.  Conversely, the further into Grace you go, the more sin you can commit.  Therefore, the compressed path in between is both "living by Grace, serving by Torah".  And how tricky it is to walk that compressed path when we are constantly being pushed or pulled into either side!  

Love & Shalom 

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1 hour ago, Tzephanyahu said:

The term narrow path in Scripture actually means a "compressed path", as in pressed upon from both sides.  I believe that on one side is Torah and the other side is Grace.  Now, the further into the Torah you go, the more legalistic you can become.  Conversely, the further into Grace you go, the more sin you can commit.  Therefore, the compressed path in between is both "living by Grace, serving by Torah".  And how tricky it is to walk that compressed path when we are constantly being pushed or pulled into either side!  

Love & Shalom 

Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

The word "strait" is only found in the KJV, and it does not mean the same as the word "straight." Strait meant to be crushed, minimized, pushed into something narrow, strangle the life out of---as in the "old self". That is the way we must enter. And on the other side, we receive what is spacious---the kingdom of God. God is glorified in our suffering, our greatest example being Jesus at the Cross, when he took it all. His life was being squeezed out for us so that we could have what he deserved, while he got what we deserved.

To say that "I believe that on one side is Torah and the other side is Grace" seems speculative at best. Where in the Word do you find sides taken? The old self is being crushed, the old way of life is being strangled. It is dying for a new one. It is not crushed differently on different sides. If this were true, should a man then choose which side is easier for him, or better? Does a man suffer according to his own will under his own strength. That is a problem when one begins comparing Torah and Grace; we get to choose sides, and that places limitations on God.

Blessings to you.

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2 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom @Alive

I'm sorry to hear this has been too much.  I think the matter has got massively out of hand, to tell the truth.  From both sides, as it always does.

I hope you leave in peace brother and, if there is any question you have on the subject, please feel free to ask me.  I don't imagine you would want to after all of this, but my door is open.  

I don't think you're foolish.  I totally understand your position. So let's be at peace.  

Torah observance does secure your salvation more - it adds nothing to salvation.  I just choose to follow it where I can but I don't disregard a brother or sister that doesn't!  Therefore, if that statement seems reasonable to you, I hope we can move on as brothers in the Lord, in peace.

Again, I'm sorry that this thread hasn't been beneficial and maybe even pushed you further from considering Torah.   With the passions of both sides of the argument blazing strong, the whole point gets overlooked.  Then the matter just feels heavy, confusing, wordy and "icky"!

Love & Shalom

No--we are not all right. This sounds oh so reasonable, but it is not.

All this does is create confusion and division--especially for the immature.

This doctrinal twisting of yours and the others is causing much harm.

I hope that you will carefully consider stopping....there is no point, but to cause controversy.

Who benefits? Ask yourself that question.

I hope and pray that you will reconsider.

For the mods---I do not mean this to be personal. I am addressing the doctrine.

Please forgive me if I have stepped over a line.

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42 minutes ago, Alive said:

Please forgive me if I have stepped over a line.

Likewise friend. Thank you for your thoughts. 

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52 minutes ago, Coliseum said:

To say that "I believe that on one side is Torah and the other side is Grace" seems speculative at best.

To be fair, that's why I said "I believe...", hehe.  Thanks for your response. 

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9 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Wow.  I wonder if Bill knows it had such a profound effect on you.  Incredible.  Sometimes the things we say off the cuff can have ripple effects through time, without us realising.

For me it started when I met a believer who referred to Jesus as Yeshua.  I was like "What? What are you going on about?".  Once I learned that the Name had been changed, I wondered why it wasn't a commonly known thing in the Church - it may have been I could have just been ignorant.  So, I went to the Messianic fellowship that they were from and my mind was blown away.  I felt like I had to relearn a lot, and I'm glad I did.

That said, rather than considering myself a Messianic, I refer to myself as a Christian - for the sake of unity, understanding and balance.  The Messianic group I attended became legalistic, predictably, and I left it many years ago.  

That said, the good teaching from the Messianic movement and the balance of Grace from Christians, helped me to see the big picture. The narrow path...

The term narrow path in Scripture actually means a "compressed path", as in pressed upon from both sides.  I believe that on one side is Torah and the other side is Grace.  Now, the further into the Torah you go, the more legalistic you can become.  Conversely, the further into Grace you go, the more sin you can commit.  Therefore, the compressed path in between is both "living by Grace, serving by Torah".  And how tricky it is to walk that compressed path when we are constantly being pushed or pulled into either side!  

Love & Shalom 

I'm not sure if Bill knows....

And yes, we are CHRISTIANS.....disciples of Christ....seeking to grow in faithful obedience to His instructions, as an expression of our love for Him.

Living by grace, serving by Torah....sounds perfect!

blessings...

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19 hours ago, Abdicate said:

AAAAMEN!

 

Torah...

First instance...

Genesis 26:5
because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

From naming him Abraham to the Exodus was 405 years, centuries before the "law" was given. I also don't like "law" as that congers up negative corrupt government rules and regulations to entrap people in legalistic ways. A much better translation is "instructions," or "teachings," which would help people understand that we as Christians are the only ones who can keep the teachings of God the Father.

 

- Original: תּרה תּורה
- Transliteration: Towrah
- Phonetic: to-raw'
- Definition:  
1.  law, direction, instruction    
a.  instruction, direction (human or divine)    
 

Then Jesus says, (the first instance in the Greek scriptures)...
 

Matthew 5:16-22
In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven.”  “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,  because I tell all of you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.  So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven  because I tell you, unless your righteousness greatly exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom from heaven!”  “You have heard that it was told those who lived long ago, ‘You must not murder,’ and ‘Whoever murders will be subject to punishment.’  But I say to you, anyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be subject to punishment. And whoever says to his brother ‘Raka!’ will be subject to the Council. And whoever says ‘You fool!’ will be subject to hell fire. 

- Original: νόμος
- Transliteration: Nomos
- Phonetic: nom'-os
- Definition:   
1.  anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command   
     a.  of any law whatsoever   
          1.  a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a  
     b.  by the observance of which is approved of God   
          1.  a precept or injunction  
          2.  the rule of action prescribed by reason  

- Original: πληρόω
- Transliteration: Pleroo
- Phonetic: play-ro'-o
- Definition:   
1.  to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full   
     a.  to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally   
          1.  I abound, I am liberally supplied  

 

The lie that the law was done away with has lead to so many demonic doctrines well established in the church to flourish. As you can see from Jesus' own words, He came NOT to destroy the law but to expand on it, to cause it to abound! This is why He equated hatred with murder and lust of the eyes as adultery. Only those that keep the commandments love God the Father and Jesus. Only those that keep and teach them will be called great in heaven. I wonder why this plainly stated elevation of the teachings of God the Father are not so accepted? Jesus answers the question:

John 3:17-21
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.   Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.   And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.   For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.  But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

 

Indeed this is the reason for the "oy veys" and personal attacks and called "shameful" to those that teach God's word on this site and many others like it.

Keeping the law isn't for salvation but proof of said salvation. That's what makes us followers of Christ to do what He did in the flesh. Furthermore, we are DEAD in Christ therefore dead to sin, so why continue in it!? Only Christians can keep the commandments as Paul says.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 

Romans 5:17-6:23
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.  Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,  so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?  Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?  We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.  For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.  We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.  For one who has died has been set free from sin.  Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.  We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.  For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.  So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.  Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.  For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.  What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!  Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?  But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,  and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.  I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.  For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.  But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.  But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

 

Just as we were once single, free from the confines of marriage, to go and come anytime we so pleased; when we marry, there must be a give and take until the relationship moves from love-lust to love and respect. Old habits die through the relationship. This is the same with Jesus. When we become followers of Christ, the more we know Him the more we become like Him, dealing with the old habit of sin and the flesh. Hence John says:

1 John 3:1-24
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.  Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.  And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.  Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.  You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.  No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.  Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.  Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.  No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.  By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.  For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.  We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.  Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you.  We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.  Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.  By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.  But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?  Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.  By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;  for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.  Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;  and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.  And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.  Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. 

 

 

Hi there!

Nice to see we agree that we Christians should grow in faithful obedience to Torah....

I skimmed through your post, and it looks really good....

I'd just point out, though, that I suspect that some of us Christians resist Torah, not because we prefer darkness more than light, but simply because we have inherited theological traditions that are incorrect....and it takes TIME and EDUCATION and DISCIPLESHIP to come out of the theological corruption all around us....

We Gentiles will, in the future, no longer consider Torah a "strange thing" (Hos.8:12).  Remember, Paul says the believing Gentiles of Rom.9:24-26 ARE the Israelites of Hos. 1.  Thus, believing Gentiles ARE ISRAELITES....and we will, in the future, no longer consider Torah a "strange thing".

We are, thus, fishers of men (Jer.16:16;Mt.4:19) who will bring our fellow Israelites to realize they have inherited FALSE theology and FALSE religious practices (Jer. 16:19).

I believe that MANY of our beloved Christian brothers and sisters would immediately and fully embrace our viewpoint.....if only they made the investment in time and and energy and resources to truly search out these matters.....

And, thanks to the printing press, we got a Protestant Reformation....which was a good step in the right direction.....but it didn't go far enough.

For example, Catholics said:  "If you Protestants can use TRADITION to keep Sunday as Sabbath, then we Catholics can keep OUR traditions too...."

Thus, the Protestant Reformation lost much of its potential bite....

And then there is the problem of the great racism of Martin Luther....and his opposition to James.

Well, here we are now...with the Internet at our full disposal....no more excuses for ignorance....we can all search the Bible quickly, and in detail, with awesome online resources.

And sure enough, more and more, we Christians are learning of our Christian roots...our Biblical roots....our roots in Christ, and in the Apostles, and the Prophets, ALL of whom walked in obedience to Torah, and they taught us to do likewise.

AND!  We are learning that we Christians are NOT EXCLUDED from Israel (Eph.2:12)....thus we are ISRAELITES! (Heb.8:8)

And Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

This means that the prophetic future of Israel is OUR prophetic future....and it's a GREAT future indeed!

 

SEEK...and you shall find (Dt.4:29;Mt.7:7)....IN THE LATTER DAYS (Dt.4:30)....and we shall again obey Torah (Dt.4:40).....and return to the land (Dt.30:1-8)......and our Messiah shall return to rebuild the Temple (Zec.6) and restore the sacrifices (Mal.3:4) for the new temple (Eze.40-47)......to fulfill the Davidic Covenant (Jer.33) and Sabbath (Is.66).....

This time is coming!

blessings to you....

 

Edited by BibleGuy
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