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dhchristian

Using triangulation to come to a definitive chronology

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I am going to start a new Post here just to better explain what I have been discussing with Iamlamad re: chronology in Revelation. You can read the dialog at his post as well but it is worth making a separate post to delve further into this chronology. The following is the relative comment copied and pasted here. 

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When does rev. 7:14 take place in the chronology of revelation? Well, let's see.... right after the sixth seal right? Those saints (the great multitude) came "out of the great tribulation" THEREFORE the Great tribulation is before the sixth seal. Matthew 24:21 equates the great tribulation with the abomination of desolation. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. THEREFORE The great tribulation and the abomination of desolation comes before the sixth seal. This is simple logic. Triangulation if you will, a navigational term for finding the location of something by comparing it with three known points. 

Your logic is flawed, placing the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation in the second half of the final week, this would make the sixth seal happen at the end of the week. I Am shocked you cannot see this. 

That is What Jesus does in the Olivet discourse is to tie the A of D to the great tribulation. John in the book of Revelation Gives us the location of this in relation to the seals. Now unless you are a preterist, this puts a fallacy in your theory you cannot reconcile, this being what you, and all prophecy students need to learn from the preterists. This was a hard lesson for me to learn, but once I did I could not condone the preterists notion that the rapture has occurred already so I had to figure out the exact timing of these things using this triangulation. Once I did everything else falls into place.

How Triangulation works: 

What is triangulation

Triangulation is a method used to increase the credibility and validity of research findings.1 Credibility refers to trustworthiness and how believable a study is; validity is concerned with the extent to which a study accurately reflects or evaluates the concept or ideas being investigated.2 Triangulation, by combining theories, methods or observers in a research study, can help ensure that fundamental biases arising from the use of a single method or a single observer are overcome. Triangulation is also an effort to help explore and explain complex human behaviour using a variety of methods to offer a more balanced explanation to readers.2 It is a procedure that enables validation of data and can be used in both quantitative and qualitative studies.

Triangulation can enrich research as it offers a variety of datasets to explain differing aspects of a phenomenon of interest. It also helps refute where one dataset invalidates a supposition generated by another. It can assist the confirming of a hypothesis where one set of findings confirms another set. Finally, triangulation can help explain the results of a study.3 Central to triangulation is the notion that methods leading to the same results give more confidence in the research findings.4

https://ebn.bmj.com/content/22/3/67

Read More at link

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What this does is definitively places the a chronology of events in Revelation into the final week, thus placing the Great tribulation definitively in the first half of the week and the time of abominations in that first half the week, the time the antichrist Rules being 42 months. It also squarely places both of these events before the sixth seal. If you believe the rapture takes place at the sixth seal, then this should firmly plant you in the mid trib camp for the rapture, and if we can prove that the two witnesses ministry is in that first half of the week, then we can make this rapture occur at the same time as the two witnesses are raised from the dead as well, at the time of or shortly before the seventh trumpet. 

Here is another relevant comment on the topic

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Jesus clearly did put the abomination at the beginning of the end as per Matthew 24:14-15 "...and then shall the end come...". Paul, who I am sure was familiar with this prophecy of Jesus, confirms this with what he has been shown in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 (Quoted above) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Although Paul did not have any written gospels to work with he did have the testimony of the disciples as to the Words of Jesus, and this prophecy would have likely been handed down verbally if not recorded by a scribe and follower of Jesus. (Some theological theories suggest this as the source document for the synoptic gospels.)

The Book of Revelation also agrees with this. It squarely puts the Great tribulation before the Sixth seal, which Jesus Puts after the abomination in the Olivet Discourse. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14)

So If the sixth seal is after the great tribulation, and the time of abominations is the great tribulation as per Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Then This means the A of D and the time of abominations is the first half of the week.

 

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On 11/9/2019 at 8:15 AM, dhchristian said:

What is triangulation

Triangulation is a method used to increase the credibility and validity of research findings.1 Credibility refers to trustworthiness and how believable a study is; validity is concerned with the extent to which a study accurately reflects or evaluates the concept or ideas being investigated.

Triangulation only works when you don't get the DATA POINTS wrong, you would agree with that right brother ? 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 8:15 AM, dhchristian said:

When does rev. 7:14 take place in the chronology of revelation? Well, let's see.... right after the sixth seal right? Those saints (the great multitude) came "out of the great tribulation" THEREFORE the Great tribulation is before the sixth seal. Matthew 24:21 equates the great tribulation with the abomination of desolation. 

And that is why you get this wrong, your DATA POINT is wrong here. I can prove via this SAME TRIANGULATION that your DATA POINT can't be correct, allow me to prove that first, then we can go from there. I am glad someone knows about triangulation on here, maybe I can prove some points now. I don't get away from the scriptures with my Data Points however, that is dangerous, unless its a scientific endeavor, like when I saw that the FIRST DAY of God's Creation had to be 9.2 Billion years......:sherlock:. But that's another subject for another day. My point is I try to stick to scriptures via my data points.

The Great Tribulation spoken of in Rev. 7:14 can not be the 70th week tribulation via triangulation data points. BE HONEST NOW !! Lets see.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These three verses above PROVE that this Multitude can not be anyone that died during the 70th week of troubles/tribulations via the scriptures themselves. They specifically tell us that these have to come from the Church Age Tribulation if we will just LISTEN to the scriptures and not listen to Traditions of Men !! 

The 5th Seal is the testimony of those the Anti-Christ will kill, not in a brief period of time, but over a 42 month period of time, during his entire reign as the Beast. We see that Jesus tells them they MUST WAIT to get revenge until ALL OF THE SERVANTS have been killed in LIKE MANNER as they had !! So those in Rev.; 7:14 can't be the ones from the 5th Seal, which doesn't have to be BEFORE the Sixth Seal by the way, it covers 42 Months of Deaths, just like Seal 1-4 covers 42 months of Conquering, War, Famine and Sickness/Death. Why do people think the Seals are opened then END Boom, boom, boom, boom ? They don't, they are opened, releasing the Anti-Christ to be the Beast fir 42 Months, and the DETAILS are in Seal 1, 2, 3 and 4, then the Witness to his Evil Reign is testified to in Seal #5. So God's Wrath will also cover 42 months. 

In Rev. 20:4 we see that those who refused the Mark of the Beast, those who were Martyrs, those who were killed for Christs name will be Judged AFTER Jesus' Return, they don't go to Heaven, thus it can not be them in Rev. 7:14 can it ? So who are they ? 

In Rev. 7:13-14 we see that these came out of great tribulation, and that means it can ONLY BE the Raptured Church, it can't be the Seal 5 Saints and it can't be any 70th week Saints, they are judged in Rev. 20:4 AFTER the Second Coming !! It can only be the Church Age Saints who were Raptured !! But if we can't get GREAT TRIBULATION out of our head as only being the end times 70th week Greatest Ever Tribulation, then we get tunnel vision, I was blind myself to this for 25 years, before I started asking God to reveal to me contradictions in the bible and why they are there, and I found out its usually from our mistakes. 

Now this will throw your Chronology out of whack. You see why it all matters so much ? The great Tribulation doesn't start until day 1261, so its the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. And because you have the WRONG DATA POINT you think they have to start before the 6th Seal. 

 

On 11/9/2019 at 8:15 AM, dhchristian said:

Jesus clearly did put the abomination at the beginning of the end as per Matthew 24:14-15 "...and then shall the end come...". Paul, who I am sure was familiar with this prophecy of Jesus, confirms this with what he has been shown in 2 Thess. 2:3-4 (Quoted above) except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Falling away is the Departure of the Church from earth.

On 11/9/2019 at 8:15 AM, dhchristian said:

What this does is definitively places the a chronology of events in Revelation into the final week, thus placing the Great tribulation definitively in the first half of the week and the time of abominations in that first half the week, the time the antichrist Rules being 42 months. It also squarely places both of these events before the sixth seal.

By getting the DATA POINT WRONG this takes us down wrong turns and thus creates wrong assumptions.

The 5th Seal lasts 42 months, as does the First 4 Seals. They are all opened on day 1261 within seconds of each other. 

1.) Seal 1 is the Anti-Christ being released to Conquer over a 42 month period of time.

2.) Seal 2 is the Beast taking Peace from the Earth via 42 months of war.

3.) Seal 3 is the Beast's Wars bringing Famine over a 42 month period.

4.) Seal 4 is the Beast bringing Sickness/Death to the earth over a 42 month period. 

5.) Seal 5 is the witness of the Martyrs unto the Beasts murder and mayhem of a 42 month period of time.

6.) Seal 6 is Gods Wrath being announced and it covers a 42 month period of time. 

All of these Seals are opened on day 1261, which leaves 1260 days of Wrath and of Beast Rule. These Seals are all opened within seconds of each other and all cover a 42 month period. 

Rev. 7 doesn't happen before the Seals are opened, but it does happen whilst all 6 are ongoing. But those Saints in Rev. 7:14 are not, nor can they be from the 70th week tribulation, they are from the Church Age tribulation period.

Edited by Revelation Man

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Just now, Revelation Man said:

These three verses above PROVE that this Multitude can not be anyone that died during the 70th week of troubles/tribulations via the scriptures themselves. They specifically tell us that these have to come from the Church Age Tribulation if we will just LISTEN to the scriptures and not listen to Traditions of Men !! 

I Respect your effort, But you still have not refuted the point that Jesus ties the Abomination of desolation to the and the rule of the beast to the Great tribulation. You are like most saying the church age is a great tribulation which definitionally is problematic for me as there can only be one Great tribulation. You are ignoring the order of Jesus himself, that he gave us in the Olivet discourse, which clearly puts the sixth seal after the great tribulation. Notice the Parallels in the two passages below. 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days(See Matthew 24:15-28) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mat. 24:29) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Rev. 6:12)

 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mat. 24:30)And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (Rev. 6:13-16)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:31) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Rev 7:9-10)

21 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Falling away is the Departure of the Church from earth.

I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the what the falling away is, which comes from an obscure and inaccurate translation of the text, which does not make grammatical sense in the context of the passage. You need to find a stronger "data point" here. 95% of translations use rebellion, falling away or apostacy in this verse. Let me explain the grammatical error so you can see it.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a [depating] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Verses 1-3)

Read the passage with the word departing replacing falling away in brackets. It is a nonsensical statement. 

57 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

By getting the DATA POINT WRONG this takes us down wrong turns and thus creates wrong assumptions.

The 5th Seal lasts 42 months, as does the First 4 Seals. They are all opened on day 1261 within seconds of each other. 

1.) Seal 1 is the Anti-Christ being released to Conquer over a 42 month period of time.

2.) Seal 2 is the Beast taking Peace from the Earth via 42 months of war.

3.) Seal 3 is the Beast's Wars bringing Famine over a 42 month period.

4.) Seal 4 is the Beast bringing Sickness/Death to the earth over a 42 month period. 

5.) Seal 5 is the witness of the Martyrs unto the Beasts murder and mayhem of a 42 month period of time.

6.) Seal 6 is Gods Wrath being announced and it covers a 42 month period of time. 

All of these Seals are opened on day 1261, which leaves 1260 days of Wrath and of Beast Rule. These Seals are all opened within seconds of each other and all cover a 42 month period. 

Rev. 7 doesn't happen before the Seals are opened, but it does happen whilst all 6 are ongoing. But those Saints in Rev. 7:14 are not nor can they be from the 70th week tribulation, they are from the Church Age tribulation period.

You need more proof to ascertain what you say here that comes from your imagination. For example, "within seconds of each other", "They last 42 months", "Opened on day 1261" In Other words, you need data points to verify these statements. I have given you a solid timeline from Matthew 24, Jesus' own words, that places the great tribulation at the time of the Abomination, which is followed by the sixth seal, which exactly matches Rev. 7 and the great multitude to come out of the Great tribulation.

My timeline is confirmed by the Olivet discourse, 2 thess. 2, Revelation, and Daniel 9:27 (When translated as half of the week). That is a triangulated timeline. No need for wordplay and imagination, Just following Jesus' chronology.     

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How about Triangulation Squares things up, lol?

HERE is some more. 


Mat 24:15 KJVWhen ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21-22 KJVFor then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"THOSE DAYS" refers to WHEN the AoD is seen,  which will be followed by great tribulation. 

Mat 24:29 KJVImmediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

There  we see numerous events that are to follow "AFTER the tribulation of THOSE DAYS".

Mar 13:14 KJVBut when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:19-20 KJVFor in THOSE DAYS shall be affliction, such as was not (unparalleled) from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:24-25 KJVBut in THOSE DAYS, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This was the exact parallel to Matthew where we see the following order of events:  AoD, G.T.,Sun, Moon, Stars, Powers shaken.

Mat 24:3 KJVAnd as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the SIGN of thy COMING, and of the end of the world?

The disciples asked for the sign of the parousia/ coming. 
Mat 24:30 KJVAnd then shall appear the SIGN of the Son of man in heaven: 

The Sign is given just prior to (and IS NOT) the coming of Jesus. 

and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mar 13:26 KJVAnd THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Luk 21:27 KJV And THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

What accompanies his erchomai? 

Mat 24:31 KJVAnd he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:27 KJVAnd then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other.   Of particular note is the great trumpet that Matthew tells. 

Because the stars falling in Rev 6:12ff is the same event as Satan and his angels of Rev 12, AND,  the concluding events of the O.D.  (coming & gathering of elect), matches the 7th trumpet and Jesus's appearance with the 144,000 on Mt Zion, in Rev 14,  the coming of Jesus with the trumpet in the O.D.  is the same as the 7th trumpet arrival of the kingdom.  

Because 1 Cor 15 reveals that the kingdom is inherited at the LAST trumpet,  the coming of Jesus (with a trumpet) in the O.D. cannot be his coming at Armageddon,  BECAUSE it would be a trumpet that takes place AFTER the 7th,  making for 2 LAST trumpets. 

To build upon the notion that the trumpet of Matt 24:31 is indeed the same as the 7th trumpet of Rev 11 AND the LAST trumpet of 1Cor15, where,  in both instances,  the kingdom of God is ushered in,  let is look at the parable of the fig tree. (Selective verses).

Mat 24:33 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that IT IS NEAR, even at the doors.
Mat 24:36 KJVBut of THAT DAY and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:44 KJVTherefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man COMETH.

THERE I emphasized THAT DAY... IS NEAR...refers to the coming of the Son of man. 

Mar 13:29 KJVSo ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that IT IS NIGH, even at the doors.
Mar 13:32 KJVBut of THAT DAY and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:36 KJVLest COMING suddenly he find you sleeping.

THERE i emphasised THAT DAY... IS NIGH...refers again to HIS COMING. 

Luk 21:31 KJVSo likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the "KINGDOM of GOD" IS NIGH at hand.
Luk 21:34-35 KJVAnd take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

AND in this passage,  I emphasized THAT DAY...IS NIGH...is referring to the KINGDOM of GOD.

All three accounts say THAT DAY is "NEAR/ NIGH".  THAT DAY is both the COMING of Jesus &  the KINGDOM of GOD.     The details of the Olivet Discourse  reveal that that day is referring to the erchomai coming of Jesus [after all these events]  and not the parousia.  Furthermore,  Paul equates the DOTL coming like a thief with Luke saying that it shall come as a snare upon all the earth.  

1Th 5:2 KJV For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 Going now to the account of the 7 trumpets,  with the 7th being the Coming of the Lord with the kingdom of God,  we find that the trumpets are the same events found in the book of Joel that precedes the coming DOTL with the coming of Elijah, as one of the 2 witnesses that also is said to precede the DOTL.   What we have now shown is that the 7th trumpet is indeed the coming DOTL that will include the coming of the Son of man. 

What is noticeably absent from the O.D.? The revelation of the man of sin!   Or is it?  The O.D. states that the powers of heaven shall be shaken AFTER those days of great tribulation.  Not only do we have Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven at the 6th seal,  but we also have an angel fall from heaven at the 5th trumpet who usurps the authority of the bottomless pit.   And because we have Rev 12 through 14 covering this same period of time from the 6th seal to the 7th trumpet,  we also have the 2 beasts that rise from the sea and earth, who are given their authority from the dragon,  and not God.   All of this mimics the words of Paul from 2 Thess 2 in that the man of sin is revealed [JUST] BEFORE the DAY of Christ,  aka, the Lord,  shall come. 

 2Th 2:3 KJV Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

What we essentially have is that the 5th trumpet and/or one of the beasts equals the revelation of man of sin. 

Not only does Jesus come with the kingdom at the 7th trumpet,  but he gathers the elect unto himself to Mt Zion: 

Rev 14:1 KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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7 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

All three accounts say THAT DAY is "NEAR/ NIGH".  THAT DAY is both the COMING of Jesus &  the KINGDOM of GOD.     The details of the Olivet Discourse  reveal that that day is referring to the erchomai coming of Jesus [after all these events]  and not the parousia.  Furthermore,  Paul equates the DOTL coming like a thief with Luke saying that it shall come as a snare upon all the earth.  

1Th 5:2 KJV For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Bravo Da puppers, Your starting to see it. 

Now let me put this Parousia, Erchomai thing to rest. 

Parousia:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, G3952 and of the end of the world? Matt 24:3

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt. 24:27

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt 24:37

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt. 24:39

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thess. 2:19

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess. 3;13

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming G3952 of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thess. 4:15

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 thess. 2:1

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 thess. 2:8

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming G3952 of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming G3952 of the Lord draweth nigh. (James 5:7-8)

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2Pet. 1:16

Looking for and hasting unto the coming G3952 of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Peter 3:12

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1 John 2:8

Erchomai

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming G2064 in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt. 24:30

And knew not until the flood came, G2064 and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:39

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, G2064 he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Matt. 24:42-44

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; Matt. 24:48

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess. 1:10

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh G2064 as a thief in the night. 1 Thess. 5:2

When he shall come G2064 to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. 2 Thess. 1:10

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come G2064 a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess. 2:3

As You can see, Parousia and erchomai are used in the same passages to describe the same thing, One word Parousia is a feminine noun, the other erchomai is a Verb. For example, in 2 thess. 2:1-3 both words are used to describe the same day. I Do not know where the theory that parousia refers to one coming to gather his saints and erchomai refers to the coming to rule with his saints comes from originally, but it is a non argument as shown by the verses above.... again the difference is as simple as verb and noun form of the word coming. Jesus does not come twice, he comes Once. Just as he left once he comes once. Sorry for all the scriptures here, but I had to point to them to illustrate this. 

If you want to know the truth of eschatological scripture, you need to approach them knowing nothing, including the bias of the pre-trib rapture. Unfortunately, in many this has been ingrained in their thinking, and they cannot reason rightly without this bias coming into play. Socratic Ignorance demands that we know nothing, Pauline ignorance demands that we know nothing save Christ Jesus and Him Crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). If you want to arrive at the truth of eschatology you need to begin where Paul does, and let the Holy Ghost teach you, and lead you to the conclusions.... wherever they may lead you to.

God Bless.  

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On 11/9/2019 at 9:15 AM, dhchristian said:

Your logic is flawed, placing the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation in the second half of the final week, this would make the sixth seal happen at the end of the week. I Am shocked you cannot see this. 

 

I don't disagree with what you refer to as triangulation, but the 6th seal does occur near the end of the week, so I do see it, but I would disagree as to whose logic is flawed.

 

God bless

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On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

I Respect your effort, But you still have not refuted the point that Jesus ties the Abomination of desolation to the and the rule of the beast to the Great tribulation.

I understand that, but the Great Tribulation of the 70th Week is not the only thing that can be called great tribulation, we can have a GREATEST EVER TROUBLES and we can also have a 2000 some odd year Church Age Period that is GREATER than the 70th week as in 2000>7. It all depends on what is being spoken about, and since John is speaking about the time period they came out of, they came out of great tribulation of the Church Age. This is a 2000 year period of time. Many, many people died during this time, of that there can be NO DOUBT, it doesn't say they came out of the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES time period, it simply says they came out of great tribulation. 

We can't tie God's hands and demand He can only use words to describe SINGULAR EVENTS in such a way. This is where Men's Traditions hinder us from seeing these truths, all we have to do is use common sense here, we can "TRIANGULATE" other verses to prove what this means, I just did that with the 5th Seal, with Rev. 20:4 I could add in Jesus saying we would always have TRIBULATION on earth. So the Church Age can be AND IS the great tribulation John was told these people came out of, AND Jesus was speaking about the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES spoken of in Daniel 12:1-2, one is the Church Age and the other is the 70th week. If we know this to be true, then we don't have to deny facts to get around Rev. 4 and 5 being the Church in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened, nor deny that Rev. 19 is the Church in Heaven Marrying Jesus then returning to defeat the Beast which is STILL ON EARTH. 

One means the great tribulation Church Age Period, the other means the Greatest Ever Troubles of the 70th week. 

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

You are like most saying the church age is a great tribulation which definitionally is problematic for me as there can only be one Great tribulation.

According to who ? You alone ? God can describe different things as GREAT !! You are refusing to use what you are posting about. Those in Rev. 7:14 CAN NOT be the Martyrs of the 5th Seal, nor can they be in Heaven because they are not Judged until Jesus Returns in Rev. 20:4. So you want to discount, it seems, the more important affirmed facts via the scriptures, whereas you want to hold to a BELIEF of yours that God can not describe different things as being GREAT. Would you agree that the Church Age tribulation was great ? I would, millions of Christians have died over the last 2000 years. Being GREAT TRIBULATION does not mean GREATEST EVER TRIBULATION. So you limit what God can call Great by saying if He says it is great it must be the GREATEST EVER, that's simply not the case.

If I knew ALL FUTURE EVENTS and told you that on a fishing trip this weekend you were going to have a GREAT CATCH.........But I had already told you a month before that one day in the future you would have the GREATEST EVER CATCH by any human being that ever lived, could not BOTH BE TRUE ? Of course it could, this weekend you could have a GREAT CATCH............and then in two weeks you could have the GREATEST EVER CATCH of fish by any man who ever lived !! Both can be true !! You, and others chose to limit what God can describe as GREAT !! And thus it trows your whole perception of who those Saints are in Rev. 7:14, even though we can see in Rev. 4 and 5 those seen in Rev. 7:14 are already there in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. We can also see that Rev. 7:14 CAN NOT be those Martyrs of the 5th Seal nor those at the Rev. 20:4 Judgment Seat.  These loose ends I tie up is why I usually come to the truth, I don't leave loose ends, I have learned if something doesn't fit, there is usually a reason for it not fitting. We have made an error in judgment.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

You are ignoring the order of Jesus himself, that he gave us in the Olivet discourse, which clearly puts the sixth seal after the great tribulation. Notice the Parallels in the two passages below. 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days(See Matthew 24:15-28) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Mat. 24:29) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Rev. 6:12)

Once again, not understanding the DATA POINT throws you off. The great trib. spoken of in Rev. 7:14 can't be the Martyrs, it is the Church Age Saints.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mat. 24:30)And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (Rev. 6:13-16)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:31) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (Rev 7:9-10)

Again, the Church comes back with Jesus in these above passages, but those in Rev. 7:14 came out of the Church Age, not the 70th week. 

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the what the falling away is, which comes from an obscure and inaccurate translation of the text, which does not make grammatical sense in the context of the passage. You need to find a stronger "data point" here. 95% of translations use rebellion, falling away or apostacy in this verse. Let me explain the grammatical error so you can see it.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a [depating] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (Verses 1-3)

Read the passage with the word departing replacing falling away in brackets. It is a nonsensical statement. 

You can disagree all you want, I did a complete study of this, its not even a close call brother. It makes perfect sense, the Thessalonians were FEARING being in Gods Wrath, so Paul was telling them, Hey guys, I have told you this while I was yet with you, that you can't be in the Day of the Lord Gods Wrath because THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME except.......there come a [departing of the Church BODY] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It makes perfect sense. Of course Paul is speaking about the Church Departing, and what were they fearing ? Gods Wrath on earth, and Paul started out by BESEECHING them in urgency, via the Gathering together unto the Lord Jesus Christ, he asked them urgently not to fear because THAT DAY can not come until 1.) The Church Departs and 2.) The Anti-Christ is REVEALED. So they were fearing God's Wrath for no reason at all. 

The Rapture happens, the 70th week begins, the Anti-Christ is the first Four Seal and God's Wrath is the 6th Seal !! See the Sequence ? 

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

You need more proof to ascertain what you say here that comes from your imagination. For example, "within seconds of each other",

I preach Gods Word, I don't need imagination. 

The Seals MUST ALL be opened on the Same Day. DATA POINTS tell us this. 

The Beast rules 42 Months right ? that is 1260 days, and thus the First Four Seals are all the Anti-Christ, so he Conquers 42 Months right ? He wars 42 months right ? He brings Famine for 42 months and Sickness and Death for 42 months. Seal #5 is showing the Martyrs who must endure for 42 months via death and tribulations until Jesus returns.

Now lets look at Seal number 6, God's Wrath, Satan is cast down here, he and his Demons are the Stars that fall to the earth. We are told in Rev. ch. 12 that the Dragon chases the Woman {Israel} for 1260 days, so the 6th Seal must be released on the same day, and why wouldn't they be ? These are all FORWARD LOOKING RELEASES, it is Jesus RELEASING the Anti-Christ to GO FORTH and we know he rules for 42 Months, so all are just coming actions, Jesus doesn't open each seal then wait on it to come to pass, thereby they all happen in ONE DAY. And why wait 30 minutes or an hour ? Jesus just opens them, boom boom. 

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

"They last 42 months", "Opened on day 1261"

Daniel 12, if one understands it, tells us when this happens. The Holy peoples lose power and thus there is a time, times and half time {1260 days} until all these Wonders End {Second Coming}. So Jerusalem/Israel is Conquered with 1260 days left until Jesus' Second Coming ends all these events.

1260+ 1260 = 2520. If a Seal is opened on day 1260, counting that day there would be 1261 days left, if its opened on day 1261, then counting that day you would have 1260 days left. Since Jesus says there will be 1260 days left from the TIME/Day the Jews are Conquered, then that means they are Conquered on day 1261. 

Dan. 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So it happens on day 1261 in the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK !! Since Satan, the Dragon chases the Woman for 1260 days he must be cast out on day 1261 also, thus he has 1260 days to chase the Woman and to rule !!

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This above is Satan being CAST out of Heaven, the Stars {Demonic Angels} were cast out like untimely figs, there time was up. He is cast out on day 1261 WE KNOW THAT because Rev. 12 gives us that clue. Its not the first 5 seals, but here we see Stars are cast down to earth, we know a giant rock hit in the Gulf of Mexico and wiped out much life on earth, so these are Demonic Angels being called Stars, like in other places. I understand the timelines perfectly.

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

n Other words, you need data points to verify these statements. I have given you a solid timeline from Matthew 24, Jesus' own words, that places the great tribulation at the time of the Abomination, which is followed by the sixth seal, which exactly matches Rev. 7 and the great multitude to come out of the Great tribulation.

You are POINTING TOWARDS an erroneous DATA POINT brother. The 5th Seal and Rev. 20:4 proves that Rev. 7:14 is not nor can it be speaking about the 70th Week tribulation period. 

On 11/10/2019 at 11:24 PM, dhchristian said:

My timeline is confirmed by the Olivet discourse, 2 thess. 2, Revelation, and Daniel 9:27 (When translated as half of the week). That is a triangulated timeline. No need for wordplay and imagination, Just following Jesus' chronology.     

With a wrong DATA POINT people go down rabbit holes. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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9 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Bravo Da puppers, Your starting to see it. 

Now let me put this Parousia, Erchomai thing to rest. 

Parousia:

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, G3952 and of the end of the world? Matt 24:3

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt. 24:27

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt 24:37

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt. 24:39

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 1 Thess. 2:19

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thess. 3;13

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming G3952 of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1 Thess. 4:15

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thess. 5:23

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 thess. 2:1

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 thess. 2:8

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming G3952 of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming G3952 of the Lord draweth nigh. (James 5:7-8)

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming G3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2Pet. 1:16

Looking for and hasting unto the coming G3952 of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2Peter 3:12

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1 John 2:8

Erchomai

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming G2064 in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt. 24:30

And knew not until the flood came, G2064 and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:39

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, G2064 he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Matt. 24:42-44

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; Matt. 24:48

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thess. 1:10

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh G2064 as a thief in the night. 1 Thess. 5:2

When he shall come G2064 to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day. 2 Thess. 1:10

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come G2064 a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess. 2:3

As You can see, Parousia and erchomai are used in the same passages to describe the same thing, One word Parousia is a feminine noun, the other erchomai is a Verb. For example, in 2 thess. 2:1-3 both words are used to describe the same day. I Do not know where the theory that parousia refers to one coming to gather his saints and erchomai refers to the coming to rule with his saints comes from originally, but it is a non argument as shown by the verses above.... again the difference is as simple as verb and noun form of the word coming. Jesus does not come twice, he comes Once. Just as he left once he comes once. Sorry for all the scriptures here, but I had to point to them to illustrate this. 

If you want to know the truth of eschatological scripture, you need to approach them knowing nothing, including the bias of the pre-trib rapture. Unfortunately, in many this has been ingrained in their thinking, and they cannot reason rightly without this bias coming into play. Socratic Ignorance demands that we know nothing, Pauline ignorance demands that we know nothing save Christ Jesus and Him Crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). If you want to arrive at the truth of eschatology you need to begin where Paul does, and let the Holy Ghost teach you, and lead you to the conclusions.... wherever they may lead you to.

God Bless.  

Let me see if I can summarize and simplify.   We both ascribe to the authority of the scriptures.   Yet we come up with two views,  X & Y.  In an attempt to clarify your view,  you provide scriptures, but without any textual criticism of why we reach differing conclusions.   You give your theological overview and then simply say that the scriptures support your conclusion of a non-differential definition of the two terms,  parousia & erchomai.   But because you give no textual exposition to those scriptures,  it comes across as interpreting the usages (of parousia, erchomai) as being your premise rather than supporting your conclusion. 

 Though it would be lengthy to look at all the usages in their context to arrive at a theological conclusion, let me start with this: 

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it IS NEAR, even at the doors.

As I have already pointed out,  what "IS NEAR", is "that day" of his coming/ erchomai.   This conclusively shows that the erchomai happens after ALL THESE THINGS (found in the text of the O.D. that lastly speaks of the shaking of the powers of heaven) are to take place,  and THEN shall they see Jesus coming/ erchomai with power and glory.   To which Jesus also speaks of the parousia/ coming. 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:27 KJV    For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:37-41 KJV    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I posted those two quips so that i might now take you to the parallels found in Luke 17.

Verse list:    
Luk 17:22-29 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The first thing to note is the (plural)  DAYS of the Son of man.   And so,  Jesus speaks of the DAYS of Noah - Noah entered on one day,  and on another day,  7 days later,  the flood came and DESTROYED THEM ALL.   Did you get that part?   ALL were destroyed by the flood.   This is one of those DAYS.   But now look at the rest of the text: 

Verse list:    
Luk 17:30-36 KJV  30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Verse 30 is where the mistake is made.  What happens WHEN  the Son of man is revealed?   The mistake that is made is when you look at what was just said,  RATHER THAN,  what is about to be said.  Notice what follows: 

31 IN THAT DAY,  he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, IN THAT NIGHT there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

What happens IN THAT DAY,  and IN THAT NIGHT???

ONE is taken and ONE is left.   What happened when the flood came?  ALL were destroyed.   Jesus paints a totally different (second)  scenario.   Instead of "his coming" affecting everyone,  only one - half are affected...

AT HIS REVEALING!

On ONE of the days of the Son of man,  half are affected. 

On another ONE of the days of the son of man,  it affects everyone.   Two different DAYS of the Son of man.

Simple logic says that everyone can't experience the wrath of God before only half experiences his wrath.   And this is what Luke says about that day when Jesus arrives with the kingdom of god: 

Luk 21:35 KJV For as a snare shall it come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the WHOLE earth.

We have Jesus telling us about the two distinctly different days of the son of man... that are like unto the days of Noah.   Noah was saved on the day that he entered the ark.  On the day that the flood came, they ALL perished.   The DOTL (the 7th trumpet)  will bring the wrath of God upon the whole world.   The revealing of Jesus at the rapture,  will bring ruin to all those who rejected the gospel of grace.   It is the wrath of LAMB versus the wrath of almighty God. 

[EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING VERSE:]

Rev 6:15 KJV And the KINGS of the earth, and the GREAT MEN , and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the MIGHTY MEN, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 KJV    And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the LAMB:
Rev 11:17-18 KJV    Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD GOD  ALMIGHTY, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY  WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Psa 110:1-6   A Psalm of David. The LORD (GOD H3068, yehovah)said unto my Lord, (JESUS H113, adon) Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD(GOD-H3068)  shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD (H3068) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord (JESUS-H136, adonai) at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of HIS wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Do you see the differences expressed here in the day of the wrath of Adonai Jesus,  [at the rapture] and the wrath of Yehovah God [In the DOTL]?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers
Scripture added

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4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Let me see if I can summarize and simplify.   We both ascribe to the authority of the scriptures.   Yet we come up with two views,  X & Y.  In an attempt to clarify your view,  you provide scriptures, but without any textual criticism of why we reach differing conclusions.   You give your theological overview and then simply say that the scriptures support your conclusion of a non-differential definition of the two terms,  parousia & erchomai.   But because you give no textual exposition to those scriptures,  it comes across as interpreting the usages (of parousia, erchomai) as being your premise rather than supporting your conclusion. 

Parousia is a feminine noun, Erchomai is a verb. That is the only difference between the two. For example.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming G3952 of the Son of man be. Matt. 24:27 This is coming used in the noun form parousia

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming G2064 in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matt. 24:30 this is coming used in the verb form erchomai

This speaks of the same coming, only from verb or noun form. 

Both Words are used in 2 thess 2 as well. You have separated what was not meant to be separated. I Quoted all the bible verses so that you could see that both His coming at the rapture, and his coming in wrath are one in the same. Like I said, I do not know who started this but it has been around for a while on the Pre-trib websites, and to me it is a non argument. Just because Parousia is used less in scripture, does not make this word exclusive to the rapture. I Mean, to be honest, this point is not worth an in depth study, as common sense will tell you the truth.

That being said, I do not disagree with you on the day of Christ and the Day of the Lord being distinct events. I Just do not agree with you on how and what the day of Christ is like. Suffice it to say, the day of Christ is the in the middle of the week. Jesus not only comes to rapture the church, But to execute the wrath of the Lamb. What is the Wrath of the Lamb? Try using triangulation from What i have said, and you will find out.   

 

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6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

With a wrong DATA POINT people go down rabbit holes. 

No offense, You are down a very deep one yourself. We will discover the Truth very soon, and I promise I won't rub it in then. :consoling2:

Thank you for your input on this, It has given me the confidence to write a book about this now. The More I see the counter arguments, the more I Know only a book format can expound on this further. I Don't know if I will have time to finish it before he comes, But you never Know. 

God Bless. 

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