A Future Seven Years?

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

But the timing would be off. At the end of the 42 months the beast is defeated and thrown in the pit. A concurrent schedule would not allow for the beast to rise up and kill the witnesses after 42 months as it's over and the beast is gone. 

I can't liken the plagues of the seals and trumps and bowls to the power of the witnesses. It's possible the beginning of sorrows is the time of the witnesses and the obvious chaos depicted is a direct result of their ministry. The witnesses are given carte blanche and the trumps and bowls are more specific in effect, timing, and appear to be a one off where the witnesses "strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish." 

But if there was a first half called the beginning of sorrows and the witnesses arrived at the onset they could be the ones causing the wars, economic instability leading to economic control, and death as depicted in seals 2-4. Though I think those three seals are more conceptual in nature, creating other conditions, removing stability and allowing mankind to act in the sinful nature.

Accurate or not I see the beast rise, not in full power but enough to create a false peace with Israel, the witnesses appear to oppose the beast and warn the Jews and torment the earth, at the end of the 42 months of their prophesy the beast ascends the Temple, declares he is god, kills the witnesses, and forces the world to worship him or die, then continues unopposed in enormous power till Jesus destroys him at the end of the second 42 months.

You have to look at where in the unfolding of events the two witnesses are mentioned - just before the final woe.  Timelines are always heavily nuanced when you get down into the details.  Suffice it to say that at this point in time we see things differently.  I expect that we'll all make adjustments as time goes on.

A seven year peace treaty or time frame is never given as a sign for us to look for so I would caution against leaning on it too heavily.  I personally don't expect it at all but I realize that everyone has their own views of things.  The signs in Matthew 24 and the seals in Revelation describe the same events and are what we should seek to understand and look for.

• Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.  Matthew 24:32-33

[JoeCanada]

Hi all.

I pulled this from....Gospelintheendtimes.com. It puts together where the Two Witnesses minister and how long they minister.

There are numerous clues within Rev. 11 and if we assemble them together, they should give us a better idea which theory is more likely.

Aspect of Ministry of Two Witnesses	Ministry During the First Half of 70th Week	Ministry from 3rd Year till 6th Year of 70th Week	Ministry During the Last Half of 70th Week
Do They Witness to the Jews?	Yes	Yes	No
Do They Witness to the Gentiles?	No	Yes	Yes
Is Their Resurrection Timed With Primary Resurrection? (Rev. 11:11-12)	No	Yes	No
Is Their Ministry and the drought associated with it timed with the Famine of the third year of the 70th Week? (Rev. 11:6)	Yes	Yes	No
Does their ministry coincide with the plagues of the second half of the 70th Week? (Rev. 11: 6)	No	Maybe?	Yes
Will the Nations be in a celebratory mood upon the death of the Witnesses? (Rev. 11:10)	Maybe?	Yes	No
Will the Nations be able to say “Peace and Safety” upon the death of the Witnesses? (1 Thess. 5:1-3)	No	Yes	No
Is an Earthquake foretold as part of the other events surrounding their resurrection? (Rev. 11:13)	No	Yes	No

 

Now with that said, let’s look individually at each clue:

Will They Witness to the Jews?

The Two Witnesses minister in Jerusalem. In order to witness to the Jews, the Jews will have to be in Jerusalem during the time the Witnesses are ministering. A ministry during the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week is required because the Jews are mostly killed or taken into captivity during the second half of the “Week.” Both of the first two options have a portion of the ministry during the first half of the “Week”.

Will They Witness to the Gentiles?

Using the exact same logic, it will be necessary for a portion of their ministry to be during the second half of the 70th Week in order for them to minister to the Gentiles who trample Jerusalem for this 42 month period. This makes a ministry solely during the first half of the 70th Week less likely.

The ministry of the Two Witnesses includes the calling down of plagues (some of which mirror the plagues of Egypt). Doesn’t it make more sense that these plagues will be upon the Gentiles (just as they were in Egypt)? If so then the Two Witnesses must be witnessing during the second half of Daniel’s 70th Week since that is the only time the Gentiles are present in Jerusalem.

Is Their Resurrection During the Primary Resurrection?

This is an incredibly important but little understood point. Hebrew harvests have 3 components, a first fruits, a primary harvest, and a gleanings harvest. In order for there to be three and only three resurrections (not seven like many Pre-Tribulation Rapture theorists propose), the Two Witnesses must be resurrected during the primary harvest resurrection.

If you are Pre-Wrath in your thinking, this means the Two Witnesses must be resurrected prior to the Second Coming by definition. This eliminates a ministry for them solely in second half of the “Week.”

If you are Post Trib. in your thinking, I still think a solely second half of the “Week” ministry doesn’t work. If, in that scenario, Jesus physically returns to the earth on the 1260th day and if the Two Witnesses are resurrected 3 1/2 days after the 1260 days, then their resurrection takes place after the physical return of Jesus. Obviously this makes no sense.

If the ministry of the Witnesses is during the first half of the 70th Week either they have a separate resurrection just for themselves or the 3 1/2 days their bodies lay in the streets is actually 3 1/2 years. This would also only work under a Post Trib. Rapture theory.

Only a ministry that extends from the 3rd year to the end of the 6th year makes sense in terms of Resurrection timing.

Does the Drought of the Two Witnesses corespond with the Famine of the Third Year?

Scripture tells us no rain falls during the ministry of the Witnesses.  It is most likely that a famine strikes in the third year.  Even if this is controversial, nearly all commentators believe the famine is part of the “Beginning of the Birth Pangs” period and happens in the first half of the “Week.” This makes it much more likely for the ministry of the Witnesses to take place during some portion of the first half of the 70th Week.

Plagues

We know the witnesses cause other plagues as well. All of these would most likely take place AFTER the invasion of Israel at the midpoint when it is being trampled by Gentiles. This makes a solely first half of the 70th Week ministry very unlikely.

Will the Nations be in a Celebratory Mood upon the Death of the Witnesses?

We know the Nations celebrate and give each other gifts upon the death of the Witnesses. It is unlikely that the gentile nations will celebrate if the Witnesses die at the midpoint because the gentiles won’t have experienced the ministry of the witnesses. Why celebrate their deaths?

It is also unlikely the nations will celebrate at the end of the 1260 days. At this point Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are gathering the nations to fight against Christ when he returns. The nations have also just experienced/are experiencing the pouring out of the Bowls of Wrath. They have bigger problems than the death of the witnesses, let alone having time to give gifts.

The only timing that makes sense from a celebratory point of view is at the end of the sixth year of the “Week” as we will see below.

Will the Nations say “Peace and Safety” after the Death of the Witnesses?

If the Witnesses have a ministry during the last half of the 70th Week, the Bowls will be in the process of being poured out and the nations will be gathering to fight against Jesus at his return. This is not a time when anyone would say “peace and safety”. 

If the Witnesses have a ministry during the first half of the 70th Week, the Antichrist wars against Egypt and the western nations will be ongoing. Additionally the Great Tribulation will have just begun. No one would say peace and safety at that point.

Only a ministry that ends prior to the Resurrection/Rapture at the end of the sixth year could result in the Nations saying “peace and safety” after the death of the Witnesses.

Is an Earthquake Prophesied to Occur in Conjunction with Other Events Surrounding the Resurrection of the Witnesses?

We know from Rev. 11:13 that an earthquake occurs upon the Resurrection of the Witnesses. Might this earthquake be part of the any of the other earthquakes that are prophesied to occur during the 70th Week? It might be. If earthquakes are prophesied at the same time as Resurrection of the Witnesses (such as at the seventh seal or the seventh bowl) this would support that timing for the the ministry of the Two Witnesses.

An earthquake is prophesied at the opening of the seventh seal (Rev. 8:5). This is consistent with a Ministry ending at the end of the sixth year. An earthquake is prophesied at the 7th Bowl as well, but this occurs at the battle of Armageddon at day 1260. If the witnesses are resurrected 3 1/2 days after this (consistent with a ministry of the last half of the 70th Week) then the earthquake will already have taken place.

Only a ministry from the third year until the end of the sixth year is supported by the occurrence of other earthquakes prophesied to coincide with other events.

Summary

Looking at all the clues in Rev. 11, it appears it is most likely that the Two Witnesses minster from about the middle of the third year of Daniel’s 70th Week until 3 1/2 days before the Resurrection at the end of the sixth year. I’m not dogmatic about this timing but it makes complete sense and brings all the scriptures we know about this time into the best harmony.

[Sister]

On 11/13/2019 at 9:14 AM, Last Daze said:

I was pretty sure that that's what you meant but it was a distinction that I felt needed to be made since atonement for iniquity is one of the things that takes place during the seventy sevens.  And if atonement for iniquity occurred at Christ's death, during which of the 70 weeks did it occur?

Atonement was made on the cross, on the 70th week and in the midst of that week to be exact. 

Jesus apostles finished that 70th week after his death and resurrection in preaching the gospel.  The apostles were eye-witnesses that our Lord rose from the dead and testimonies had to be given to show that Israel made a big mistake.

The atonement for iniquity was Jesus dying on the cross.  Whether Israel accepted Jesus or not doesn't change the prophecy because the invitation for salvation went out regardless to have sins wiped clean.  That invitation was rejected except for the few.  When the apostles ministry was completed, the final week was ended.

Prophecy fulfilled.

[JoeCanada]

47 minutes ago, Sister said:

Atonement was made on the cross, on the 70th week and in the midst of that week to be exact. 

Jesus apostles finished that 70th week after his death and resurrection in preaching the gospel.  The apostles were eye-witnesses that our Lord rose from the dead and testimonies had to be given to show that Israel made a big mistake.

The atonement for iniquity was Jesus dying on the cross.  Whether Israel accepted Jesus or not doesn't change the prophecy because the invitation for salvation went out regardless to have sins wiped clean.  That invitation was rejected except for the few.  When the apostles ministry was completed, the final week was ended.

Prophecy fulfilled.

Hi Sister,

A couple of questions:

First, let's look at this scripture....

And he will make (Heb. GABAR, meaning “strengthen”) a firm covenant with the many for one week. (Dan. 9:27)

• If it’s the Mosaic Covenant, why is it allowed to extend 3 1/2 years beyond the death of Messiah? And how and why is it strengthened? 
• If it’s the New Covenant in Jesus’s blood, how is it strengthened prior to Jesus’s death (which is the event that inaugurates the Covenant?)  And why is it strengthened only for 7 years when this is an everlasting covenant?

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Atonement was made on the cross, on the 70th week and in the midst of that week to be exact. 

Jesus apostles finished that 70th week after his death and resurrection in preaching the gospel.  The apostles were eye-witnesses that our Lord rose from the dead and testimonies had to be given to show that Israel made a big mistake.

The atonement for iniquity was Jesus dying on the cross.  Whether Israel accepted Jesus or not doesn't change the prophecy because the invitation for salvation went out regardless to have sins wiped clean.  That invitation was rejected except for the few.  When the apostles ministry was completed, the final week was ended.

Prophecy fulfilled.

This is quite possibly correct. There are just so many ideas on this and so many books about it all. It is staggering. Since I do not think my opinion will matter either way, I tend to caution people to not put their faith in a supposed prophesy explanation because it may be inaccurate. Rather, our Christian efforts might be better spent elsewhere. 

[Uriah]

33 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Sister,

A couple of questions:

First, let's look at this scripture....

And he will make (Heb. GABAR, meaning “strengthen”) a firm covenant with the many for one week. (Dan. 9:27)

• If it’s the Mosaic Covenant, why is it allowed to extend 3 1/2 years beyond the death of Messiah? And how and why is it strengthened? 
• If it’s the New Covenant in Jesus’s blood, how is it strengthened prior to Jesus’s death (which is the event that inaugurates the Covenant?)  And why is it strengthened only for 7 years when this is an everlasting covenant?

Hi Joe

Hope you don't mind me interjecting here. By strengthening "the covenant" it actually makes it new. Nowhere can you find that there is anything indicating that it is strengthened for only 7 yrs. It isn't strengthened for a week, it is saying its what He DOES for one week.

Jer. 31:33- But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb. 10- 16- This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

And of course we know Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, in which there is covenant. So the writer of Hebrews sees the law of sacrifices being done away with but not the law of righteousness. Instead there is a righteousness by faith instead of works, an everlasting righteousness as listed as one of the six components in Daniel. No nee for continual sacrifices, because of His atonement for iniquity.             Ch 9

[Buddy D. Mouse]

I feel the entire 70 weeks ran CONCURRENTLY, from about 444 BC until the stoning of Stephen. Nowhere else in the Bible where lengths of time are given is there any "GAP" - like this ongoing gap of 2000 years required by some eschatologies. That being said, there is still the case of dual/multiple fulfillment of prophecy, like "a virgin shall conceive" meaning ALMA, woman of marriage-able age, as well as PARTHENOS, (actual virgin) the Septuagint word, applying to . JESUS.

There is a 42 month period in Revelation, POSSIBLY 2, maybe just one, but this does not mean the period(s) is part of the 70 weeks - it's already OVER.

Revelation has many things that are SIMILAR to OT prophecies, but not EXACTLY the same. 4 horsemen are similar to Zechariah' s 4 horsemen, but not identical. Living creatures in Revelation are SIMILAR to Ezekiel' s beings, but number of wings is different.

DATE-SETTING is wrong, almost everyone agrees to that except for date-setters themselves, but it is almost like REVERSE-DATE-SETTING to say "Christ cannot return for 3 1/2 years or 7 years" - no, it could be later today. I am not PRE-trib, but return is an ANY MOMENT thing.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Buddy D. Mouse
Typo

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Episcopius said:

I feel the entire 70 weeks ran CONCURRENTLY, from about 444 BC until the stoning of Stephen. Nowhere else in the Bible where lengths of time are given is there any "GAP" -

Hi Episcoplus

You will soon see people posting a reference to Jesus reading in the synagogue and closing the scroll...for the rest of the passage regarding vengeance to be fulfilled prior to His second coming.

To this I say let HIM be the one to make the "gap" and let not men impose one to fit a pet doctrine.

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Well, Uriah, I wonder how closing the scroll at the point He did can impact interpretation of 70 weeks, but we will see.

I don't know how it got started that Messiah was cut off in the MIDST of the week when what it says is that He was cut off after 69 weeks. But then again, people could say " well, 69 and a half weeks is AFTER 69 weeks!" And I roll my eyes.

But book of Daniel has seemingly LIMITLESS interpretations. Really liberal scholars say there was no real Daniel, that the book was written in Macabeean Times, Daniel himself based on a Dan'el from Canaanite/Ugaritic mythology, that it is literally ANNOINTED ONE rather than MESSIAH, and refers to Onias III, a high priest, and on and on. Daniel is in THE WRITINGS, not THE PROPHETS, but Jesus Himself refers to THE PROPHET DANIEL...

 

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Episcopius said:

Well, Uriah, I wonder how closing the scroll at the point He did can impact interpretation of 70 weeks, but we will see.

I don't know how it got started that Messiah was cut off in the MIDST of the week when what it says is that He was cut off after 69 weeks. But then again, people could say " well, 69 and a half weeks is AFTER 69 weeks!" And I roll my eyes.

But book of Daniel has seemingly LIMITLESS interpretations. Really liberal scholars say there was no real Daniel, that the book was written in Macabeean Times, Daniel himself based on a Dan'el from Canaanite/Ugaritic mythology, that it is literally ANNOINTED ONE rather than MESSIAH, and refers to Onias III, a high priest, and on and on. Daniel is in THE WRITINGS, not THE PROPHETS, but Jesus Himself refers to THE PROPHET DANIEL...

 

Good stuff Episcoplus

I have been sticking with the idea of the Messiah being cut off AFTER 69 weeks-in the midst of the 70th week.