A Future Seven Years?

[Sister]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Sister,

A couple of questions:

First, let's look at this scripture....

And he will make (Heb. GABAR, meaning “strengthen”) a firm covenant with the many for one week. (Dan. 9:27)

• If it’s the Mosaic Covenant, why is it allowed to extend 3 1/2 years beyond the death of Messiah? And how and why is it strengthened? 
• If it’s the New Covenant in Jesus’s blood, how is it strengthened prior to Jesus’s death (which is the event that inaugurates the Covenant?)  And why is it strengthened only for 7 years when this is an everlasting covenant?

Hi Joe Canada

It would be good to just concentrate on the prophecy first so you can see where I am coming from. 

That final 3 1/2 years beyond the death of the Messiah is still part of that same week.   The Messiah was killed in the midst of the week.

 Daniel 9:27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Daniel 9:26   And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

threescore and two weeks = 62 weeks

plus the 7 weeks = 69 weeks

 

7 weeks it took for the commandment of the temple to be built until it was finished.  From laying the first foundation to it's finish.

It's not a 7 day week - it's a stage.  If we want to know how long it took for the temple to be built we go here;

 John 2:20   Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

There's your 7 weeks.

 

So after the 7 weeks of building the temple.....add another 62 weeks.  But the Messiah was cut off "after" the 62 weeks, not "in" the 62 weeks.  Which means he was killed in the next week, and in the midst of that week.

7weeks + 62 weeks + one week = 70 weeks.

The apostles were sent to preach Christ in that same week he died.  That week ended with Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed in 70AD.  All this happened in the same 70th week.

The prophecy is fulfilled.  That temple was built so that the Messiah would come and preach in it.  Instead of being heard and believed, he was killed.  That temple did not stand for the truth now, but for abominations.  This prophecy "ended" with a flood (war).  So from the commandment to build the 2nd temple - with Christ appearing in that temple, to the temple's destruction took 70 weeks.  (70 stages which God calls weeks.).  And the result of that 70 weeks being completed/fulfilled ....desolations are determined until the Coming.

 

So read it like this now;

Daniel 9:25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, (pause).....and threescore and two weeks: the street (the way to the kingdom) shall be built again, (Christ preaches the new Covenant) and the wall (the truth which divides), even in troublous times. (even despite Israel's leaders scheming against Christ, the foundation was laid.)

All this happened in 69 weeks.  The next week was the crucifixion, week 70 (in the midst of the week).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

By using "stage",  you are saying it is "an unspecified length of time", are you not?

I have never heard this before.

But it means, if I understand this, that we have SHAUVIM - sevens, weeks of years, going along smoothly and mathematically perfect, until MESSIAH comes. Then the last shauvim stretches into a STAGE - and is not seven years, but lasts from crucifixion until the Temple destruction in 70 AD?

I kind of don't get it. We have STAGES that are all 7 years long, except the last one is from about 33 AD til 70 AD ?

A 37 year stage when all before it were 7  years...

As far as this Christ being cut off in the midst of the 70th week, when the Bible says he is cut off after 69 weeks, I don't get that either.

Cut off means killed, right?

If MESSIAH is killed after 69 weeks - it doesn't mean He is killed after 69.5 shauvim, but 69 like it says.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Buddy D. Mouse
Mistake

[JoeCanada]

3 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi Joe Canada

It would be good to just concentrate on the prophecy first so you can see where I am coming from. 

That final 3 1/2 years beyond the death of the Messiah is still part of that same week.   The Messiah was killed in the midst of the week.

 Daniel 9:27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Daniel 9:26   And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

threescore and two weeks = 62 weeks

plus the 7 weeks = 69 weeks

 

7 weeks it took for the commandment of the temple to be built until it was finished.  From laying the first foundation to it's finish.

It's not a 7 day week - it's a stage.  If we want to know how long it took for the temple to be built we go here;

 John 2:20   Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

There's your 7 weeks.

 

So after the 7 weeks of building the temple.....add another 62 weeks.  But the Messiah was cut off "after" the 62 weeks, not "in" the 62 weeks.  Which means he was killed in the next week, and in the midst of that week.

7weeks + 62 weeks + one week = 70 weeks.

The apostles were sent to preach Christ in that same week he died.  That week ended with Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed in 70AD.  All this happened in the same 70th week.

The prophecy is fulfilled.  That temple was built so that the Messiah would come and preach in it.  Instead of being heard and believed, he was killed.  That temple did not stand for the truth now, but for abominations.  This prophecy "ended" with a flood (war).  So from the commandment to build the 2nd temple - with Christ appearing in that temple, to the temple's destruction took 70 weeks.  (70 stages which God calls weeks.).  And the result of that 70 weeks being completed/fulfilled ....desolations are determined until the Coming.

 

So read it like this now;

Daniel 9:25   Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, (pause).....and threescore and two weeks: the street (the way to the kingdom) shall be built again, (Christ preaches the new Covenant) and the wall (the truth which divides), even in troublous times. (even despite Israel's leaders scheming against Christ, the foundation was laid.)

All this happened in 69 weeks.  The next week was the crucifixion, week 70 (in the midst of the week).

 

Hi Sister,

The Greek Septuagint Old Testament indicates the 70th Shabua extends to the "end of time"

"And one week shall establish the covenant with many; and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink offering shall be taken away: and on the Temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation".........Dan 9:27 LXX

This was the Old Testament text of the early church.  We cannot - and should not - ignore the Septuagint version. It precludes an historic fulfillment of the 70 Shabua. 

Everyone is in agreement that the 7 Shabuim ( weeks of years) and the 62 Shabuim, added together constitute the 483 year countdown to Messiah the Prince. 

So then, how is it that the  70th  Shabua, the last week, 7 years, gets stretched all the way to the...."week ended with Jerusalem and the temple being destroyed in 70AD. "???  ...........That would account for somewhere around 40 (+-) years. How do you reconcile that? 

Where do the 483 years end? At the birth of the Messiah?...... at His Baptism?.....at the beginning of His ministry?.........on Palm Sunday?.......

 

[JoeCanada]

9 minutes ago, Episcopius said:

By using "stage",  you are saying it is "an unspecified length of time", are you not?

I have never heard this before.

But it means, if I understand this, that we have SHAUVIM - sevens, weeks of years, going along smoothly and mathematically perfect, until MESSIAH comes. Then the last shauvim stretches into a STAGE - and is not seven years, but lasts from crucifixion until the Temple destruction in 70 AD?

I kind of don't get it. We have STAGES that are all 7 years long, except the last one is from about 33 AD til 70 AD ?

A 37 year stage when all before it were 7  years...

As far as this Christ being cut off in the midst of the 70th week, when the Bible says he is cut off after 69 weeks, I don't get that either.

Cut off means killed, right?

If MESSIAH is killed after 69 weeks - it doesn't mean He is killed after 69.5 shauvim, but 69 like it says.

Hey Episcopius,

I guess we both had the same thoughts. I posted mine just as you posted yours......

Well, it's good to know we are  on the same page.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The signs in Matthew 24 and the seals in Revelation describe the same events and are what we should seek to understand and look for.

Agree. 

Jesus is coming. We need to be watching.

[Diaste]

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

This has to be a truth in regards to this:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Then everything between these two statements has to be associated with the Return of Jesus. It's true then that the generation that shall not pass must be one in which the events and conditions Jesus relates in Matt 24:4-33 is future. All of it. Then if it's true the A of D is at some time in the middle of the week as Daniel has said, then what of Matt 24:4-14? 

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

This can only be true if the witnesses are contemporary to the events described. So then Matt 24:4-12 has to be an unprecedented time, near in time to the Return of Jesus, or neither 'shall not pass till all is fulfilled' and 'enduring to the end' could not be true. So why cannot the events from Matt 24:4-12 be the half of the week before what we all know is the last half of the week after the A of D?

[Buddy D. Mouse]

"Spiritualizing" STREET and WALL IN THE 70 weeks prophecy may be insightful, but let's not forget, in Nehemiah' s time the STREET and WALL were physical realities, Jews returning from Exile worked on that WALL with a tool in one hand and a sword in the other hand, as enemies were attacking them as they built the wall. It was a wall definitely rebuilt in "troubling times".

[Buddy D. Mouse]

" There be some standing here who will not taste death til they see the Son of Man come in His power" could be both Stephen, who saw Jesus "standing at the right hand of God" right before he "tasted death" (at his stoning), and John, who saw, in vision, Jesus come in power.

Eschatology is not easy, EVERY Christian viewpoint is PLAUSIBLE, people are not just "pulling things out of the Air" for their views, but interpretations vary widely.

I think the 70 weeks ran CONCURRENTLY from 444 BC when Nehemiah went back with a letter from the Medo-Persian king authorizing to cut timber for WALLS, and the stoning of Stephen, the Jews final dramatic rejection of the Messiah.

Somehow there is a yet-future 42 month period, maybe two of them, but that doesn't mean they or it is part of the 70 Shauvim, that's over. The future "time, Times, and half a time" are like a dual/multiple fulfillment, like Abomination of Desolation(s). There was one when Antiochus Epiphanes slaughtered a pig on the altar, even before Jesus came, around 167 BC. But Jesus told followers to watch for an Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. And they DID watch, and fled to Pella and elsewhere, during the Roman Jewish War from 66-70 AD. 

[Buddy D. Mouse]

John wrote that "there are already many antichrists" in his time, but most Christians believe there is a yet-future End Time AntiChrist still to come.

There are Two Witnesses that Christians do not agree on as far as identity. Early Church Fathers pegged Elijah and Enoch as the 2 Witnesses, two men that never died. Popular end time books have them as Elijah and Moses - which fits the their MIRACLES better...

I don't know who 2 Witnesses are, I don't know about this middle of the Week stuff...

Does anybody know how much time it was between Crucifixion and Stoning of Stephen? I don't.

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Buddy D. Mouse
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[Last Daze]

The fact that Jesus' ~3.5 year ministry focused heavily on new covenant teaching figures in significantly too.