A Future Seven Years?

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste

But there are many who believe that Jesus referred to TWO things as the question delineates. These things=70 A.D., sign of thy coming/end of the world=self explanatory.

In that case there would be three things: the first two and the end of the world.

It's like a court case, the questions are related to a single case with many aspects, which questions leaders to the truth of the event.

[Uriah]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Every translation I read says that the Messiah is cut off after the 69th (7 + 62) week.  The 70th week comes after the 69th.  How far into the 70th week before He is cut off is irrelevant to the point that His death (atonement for iniquity) takes place during the 70th week.

Last Daze

I agree that those six elements had to be accomplished within 70 weeks. NOT AFTER 69 weeks in an un-designated time space. The six elements do not include the 70 A.D. scenario either. Some folks think He ONLY accomplished the atonement for iniquity while ignoring other things in the N.T. that show the fulfillment of the rest

Finish the transgression-

Isaiah 53:8- He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off  from the land of the living; for the transgressions of my people He was stricken.                                                       

Hebrews 9:15- And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Make an end of sins-

John 1:29- The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!                                                                                                           Romans 6:10-  For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.                                                                                                                                              Hebrews 9:26-  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.                  Hebrews 9:28 - Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.                                                              Hebrews 10:16-17-  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them, then He adds, Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Reconciliation for Iniquities- 

Isaiah 53:5- But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.                                          Romans 5:10-11 -For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Corinthians 5:18-19-Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Everlasting Righteousness- 

1 Peter 2:24 - Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness–by whose stripes you were healed.                                                                                                    Romans 3:21-22 -But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.    1Corinthians 1:30 - But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God–and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

Seal up Vision and Prophecy-  

Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.   

Anoint the Most Holy-  

Mark 1:23-24 - Now there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are–the Holy One of God!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Acts 10:38 - How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Uriah
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[Uriah]

22 minutes ago, Diaste said:

In that case there would be three things: the first two and the end of the world.

It's like a court case, the questions are related to a single case with many aspects, which questions leaders to the truth of the event.

Ok, I guess. I was taking that as being included.

 

[Last Daze]

11 minutes ago, Uriah said:

I agree that those six elements had to be accomplished within 70 weeks. NOT AFTER 69 weeks in an un-designated time space. The six elements do not include the 70 A.D. scenario either. Some folks think He ONLY accomplished the atonement for iniquity while ignoring other things in the N.T. that show the fulfillment of the rest

Hey Uriah,

I agree.  The reason that I focus in on atonement for iniquity is that there's no debating how that took place and when.  The rest of the conditions are somewhat debatable.  The purpose of the OP is to show that people should not be looking for some future 7 year time frame because the 70th week is at a minimum, partially fulfilled.  I've heard good arguments for both partial fulfillment and complete fulfillment of the 70th week.  I just wanted to caution people about looking for something that's never given as a sign to look for.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/11/2019 at 1:18 PM, Last Daze said:

Most who study prophecy are familiar with the seventy sevens found in Daniel 9.  Rather than delve into who the "he" is of v27 and engage in various word and grammar studies, try taking a look at the prophecy from more of a general overview.  Here are some bullet points, rationale, and a conclusion:

• A specific time frame was given for certain things to be accomplished. v24
• The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is central to those things being accomplished.
• The Messiah is cut off after the 69th week of the prophecy.

If the 70th week is still future then the Messiah's death, which is central to accomplishing the prophecy, falls outside of the time frame given for those certain things to be accomplished.  That makes zero sense to me.  If Jesus' death is central to the fulfilling of that prophecy, it must fall within the time constraints of that prophecy.  It had to have taken place during the 70th week or why even bother to give a time frame?  Now, whether the 70th week is partially or completely fulfilled is another discussion entirely.

Not so brother, and Jesus is not CENTRAL to the Prophecy per se, any more than the Wall is CENTRAL to the Prophecy, they are BOTH Markers !! 

Marker #1 is the Wall that fulfills that Prophecy of 7 x 7. {Was the Wall 49 years plus 1/2 a week ? No of course not}

Marker #2 is Jesus's Sacrifice, that fulfills that Prophecy of the 62 x 7.

Marker #3 is the Agreement {Covenant} between the AC and the MANY, that fulfills that time line of the 1 x 7, where we see Israel repent 1335 days before the Second Coming, but during the 70th week. 

Everybody thinks {I should say some people, because most see the 70th week as future, but its far too many people in reality} that Jesus is CENTRAL to the Prophecy, well of course his blood is central to repentance, but its not the Blood of Christ that is the Covenant, that is where they all go wrong, that is why they get off kilter. The Covenant or AGREEMENTS between the AC and the MANY is the 3rd Marker, and that happens during the End Times/70th week.

Its really simple, all one has to do is think to himself, has Israel REPENTED YET ? The answer is no, so the Prophecy can't have been fulfilled yet.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Every translation I read says that the Messiah is cut off after the 69th (7 + 62) week.  The 70th week comes after the 69th.  How far into the 70th week before He is cut off is irrelevant to the point that His death (atonement for iniquity) takes place during the 70th week.

Or what length of time is there between the the end of the 69th Week and the Beginning of the 70th Week.  The original Prophecy states 7 Sevens, 62 Sevens, and then a One Seven.  Nothing about 69 1/2 Sevens and a future 1/2 Seven.  All Sevens are full and whole.  So immediately after the 69th Week the Messiah was cut off.  Was the end of the 69th Week at His Triumphal Entry or the Crucifixion.  Just some more info to consider.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Ok, I guess. I was taking that as being included.

 

Yes, but the Temple question isn't a part of the answer. I don't think it's possible to know if 'when shall these things be' is in reference to 70 AD or the Third Temple, or both perhaps. Jesus goes on to talk about the end of the age and doesn't mention when, 'There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.'

What I'm saying is His answer refers to the end of the age and His coming. Beginning of sorrows prior to the A of D then GT and His return in glory.

We all seem to agree the A of D is at the midpoint and the events after that well documented, so 3.5 years.

If then a single generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled then the generation that sees the A of D will also see the beginning of sorrows, which makes that time frame associated with the A of D, GT and the 2nd coming, or the first half of the week.

Daniel 9:26-27

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

I do not see it as possible this speaks to what Jesus did. The direct antecedent to the first part of v 27 is the prince of the people who will come. 

Jesus is the guarantor of an everlasting covenant, not 7 years. In v 27 it seems the covenant is broken, Jesus isn't going to break the covenant, it's forever.

The Temple is desecrated and if this was a Jesus covenant for 7 years it seems more than unlikely he would break the covenant then desecrate the symbol of that covenant.

"...until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him." The 'he' and 'him' from v 26-27 certainly cannot be Jesus as this passage refers to the 'end' twice and Jesus is triumphant at the end, not destroyed.

Is this a prophecy beyond the 70 years of desolation Daniel speaks about at the beginning? Yes. I fact I see no relief from that for the Jews. Most of what Daniel saw in the visions and the heard in the meetings with the divine throughout the entire book concern the end and the tyranny of the coming king and his kingdom. 

So is there a week left to fulfill? Strangely, this seeming unfathomable notion is a very real possibility. 

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yes, but the Temple question isn't a part of the answer. I don't think it's possible to know if 'when shall these things be' is in reference to 70 AD or the Third Temple, or both perhaps. Jesus goes on to talk about the end of the age and doesn't mention when, 'There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.'

What I'm saying is His answer refers to the end of the age and His coming. Beginning of sorrows prior to the A of D then GT and His return in glory.

We all seem to agree the A of D is at the midpoint and the events after that well documented, so 3.5 years.

If then a single generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled then the generation that sees the A of D will also see the beginning of sorrows, which makes that time frame associated with the A of D, GT and the 2nd coming, or the first half of the week.

Daniel 9:26-27

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

I do not see it as possible this speaks to what Jesus did. The direct antecedent to the first part of v 27 is the prince of the people who will come. 

Jesus is the guarantor of an everlasting covenant, not 7 years. In v 27 it seems the covenant is broken, Jesus isn't going to break the covenant, it's forever.

The Temple is desecrated and if this was a Jesus covenant for 7 years it seems more than unlikely he would break the covenant then desecrate the symbol of that covenant.

"...until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him." The 'he' and 'him' from v 26-27 certainly cannot be Jesus as this passage refers to the 'end' twice and Jesus is triumphant at the end, not destroyed.

Is this a prophecy beyond the 70 years of desolation Daniel speaks about at the beginning? Yes. I fact I see no relief from that for the Jews. Most of what Daniel saw in the visions and the heard in the meetings with the divine throughout the entire book concern the end and the tyranny of the coming king and his kingdom. 

So is there a week left to fulfill? Strangely, this seeming unfathomable notion is a very real possibility. 

Hi Diaste

I may have to answer in more than one post. I'll try to get it all done in this one but I don't like making long posts or those that cover too many subjects. For now I am trying my luck with a text file that I found by Dominick McCausland- very easy to follow, and important. 

Gospel Comparison.docx

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Quote

Yes, but the Temple question isn't a part of the answer. I don't think it's possible to know if 'when shall these things be' is in reference to 70 AD or the Third Temple, or both perhaps. Jesus goes on to talk about the end of the age and doesn't mention when, 'There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.'

This happened in 70 A.D. People certainly saw the city surrounded with armies, however Jesus also said that the AoD would be seen "in the Holy Place"-this did NOT happen. THAT is for the future. The file I posted helps it to be seen clearer. I don't think there will be a third temple before Jesus returns. The Jews who have overseen the preparations have quoted Zechariah saying the BRANCH -the Messiah- will build it! They are NOT going to build a temple for an anti-Christ do desecrate. They would NEVER allow anyone but the high priest to enter the Holy Place. Oh, and then God will destroy His temple for the "Ezekiel" Temple? Or have two Temples. Not.

Quote

What I'm saying is His answer refers to the end of the age and His coming. Beginning of sorrows prior to the A of D then GT and His return in glory.

Yes but He makes a difference between the two by saying "but before these things..." (paraph.)

Quote

We all seem to agree the A of D is at the midpoint and the events after that well documented, so 3.5 years.

 I understand your meaning here, but I believe the 70 weeks is past and there is yet another 3.5 year period yet to come for the GT.

Quote

If then a single generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled then the generation that sees the A of D will also see the beginning of sorrows, which makes that time frame associated with the A of D, GT and the 2nd coming, or the first half of the week

The generation that would not pass in His reference was the one to see the Temple destroyed.

Daniel 9:26-27

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. 27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.”

Quote

I do not see it as possible this speaks to what Jesus did. The direct antecedent to the first part of v 27 is the prince of the people who will come.

In this verse Gabriel is alternating between different characters/events in a future timeline.

Quote

Quote

Jesus is the guarantor of an everlasting covenant, not 7 years. In v 27 it seems the covenant is broken, Jesus isn't going to break the covenant, it's forever.

Nobody is saying Jesus was making a 7 yr. covenant. What it means is that for the last 7 (yr. period) Jesus is confirming the covenant, yet He is cut off in the midst of it.

The Temple is desecrated and if this was a Jesus covenant for 7 years it seems more than unlikely he would break the covenant then desecrate the symbol of that covenant.

Quote

"...until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him." The 'he' and 'him' from v 26-27 certainly cannot be Jesus as this passage refers to the 'end' twice and Jesus is triumphant at the end, not destroyed.

So this makes my point. Upon whom was it poured out upon? Nero? Some other Roman? Jerusalem? Israel? ...The desolator? (alternate translation) It sounds like the AC, which it IS yet future. Its not a preteristic passage either. They cannot identify who "that determined" punishment was poured out upon no matter how they try. In V 26 it refers to Jesus and 70 A.D, thus proving that Gabriel is moving through a timeline.

 

Quote

Is this a prophecy beyond the 70 years of desolation Daniel speaks about at the beginning? Yes. I fact I see no relief from that for the Jews. Most of what Daniel saw in the visions and the heard in the meetings with the divine throughout the entire book concern the end and the tyranny of the coming king and his kingdom.

Not sure I understand this. The 70 yrs ended and they returned and rebuilt. Yes, Daniel saw the kingdoms of the region but he also heard far beyond, even to the resurrection.

Quote

So is there a week left to fulfill? Strangely, this seeming unfathomable notion is a very real possibility. 

Again, I don't see another week, but a 3.5 yr. period, perhaps slightly longer if you consider two mentionings in Rev. to start at different times making them offset by a few months while overlapping for most of it.

Gospel Comparison.docx

Edited November 16, 2019 by Uriah
Upload doc.

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Everybody thinks {I should say some people, because most see the 70th week as future, but its far too many people in reality} that Jesus is CENTRAL to the Prophecy, well of course his blood is central to repentance, but its not the Blood of Christ that is the Covenant, that is where they all go wrong, that is why they get off kilter.

The death of Christ, His shed blood, is what provides atonement for sin.  Atonement for sin is one of the things that is declared to be accomplished during the 70 weeks.  The death of Christ occurs after the 69th week.  It MUST fall within the 70th week if it is to fulfill the conditions of the prophecy.  What purpose does the time frame serve if the things in verse 24 can be accomplished at any time outside of the 70 weeks?