Book of Revelation......A fresh look

[angels4u]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Thanks brother, got rid of the Prostrate on the 19th, the Lymp-nodes were cancer free but while in there they saw my bladder had cancer just starting, so they got that whilst in there but they may want to do a little radiation to be safe in about a month. The Lymp-nodes are the important sign I think in that it spreads to other organs via the blood stream, so maybe God has plans for me further on earth. 

Here is where I think people get off track on Matt. 24, they see all this or much of it as the 70th week tribulation period, when if we follow the timelines it can't be that. The Disciples themselves are warned they will all die {save John of course} or be killed for Jesus. 

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

So any end time 70th week period of time before this verse just can't be factual. Jesus is giving them a run down of what he initially told them about, the temples destruction, I see that as the first false christ mention. Then he fives then the 2000 some odd year church age false prophet/preachers period through verse 14. 

In other words the very thing Jesus told them about to start with, he now warns them, hey, there will be false christs {this fulfills John 5:43} and the Pharisees, Jews knowing Rome was the Fourth Beast but forth their Political Messianic Saviors, not realizing the real Messiah was not just a political leader, but the Son of the Living God !! So Jesus warns them about this, no doubt they need to stay away from Jerusalem at this time, and they don't need to fall for the lie that the Messiah is come.  Then after that the Church Age tribulation which Christ promised the Saints they must go through, saying ye will always have tribulation. Jesus showed them there would be a period of time with many, many, many wars, much famine, many earthquakes and much pestilence {Black Plague}. That covers from Jesus till now and until the Rapture, its the Church Age Period. These are the beginning of sorrows, or as you say Birth pangs. 2000 years..........2000 years..........2000 years bring the Birth Pangs of the coming 70th week which will be the baby. The Birth Pangs are not the baby, they are just the sign the baby is near brother. Jesus even tells is the end is BY and BY.

The false preachers in verse 11 is the Robert Tilton types, the Jim Jones and the David Koresh types, and even Joseph Smith in my mind. Then in verse 12 we are told sin abounds, but he that endures {ones lifetime race, Paul said we must run the race until the end} until the end will be saved. Many people think this means the 70th week tribulation id doesn't, verse 14 says when the Gospel is preached unto the ends of the earth, THEN the end {70th week} will come. You see brother, verses 4-7 was 70 AD. And I think if Israel had accepted Christ, 70 AD would have been the End Times !!

 

God Bless brother, and happy Thanksgiving unto our God. We see darkly now, but one day we will see clearly. 

 

 

 

Quote

Thanks brother, got rid of the Prostrate on the 19th, the Lymp-nodes were cancer free but while in there they saw my bladder had cancer just starting, so they got that whilst in there but they may want to do a little radiation to be safe in about a month. The Lymp-nodes are the important sign I think in that it spreads to other organs via the blood stream, so maybe God has plans for me further on earth. 

Praying for you !

Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.

3 John 1:2 |

 

[Diaste]

Hey Joe.

I like this and I'm happy you brought it up. Should be a good one. I agree Rev isn't a strict chronology. There are chronological sections but a strict chronology would make no sense. I see the format as well. The narrative advances and then returns to give more detail. 

On 11/12/2019 at 7:41 PM, JoeCanada said:

Although Rev has a non-chronological section, the seals, trumpets and bowls are completely chronological. All the seals open before any of the trumpets, and then after the trumpets are blown, only then are the bowls poured out.

Well...(I'm going to take some editing liberties for clarity, to highlight what I feel are the essential facts)

The Sixth Seal:

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

The Seventh Trump:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

The Seventh Bowl of Wrath:

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake.Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each,a rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

Then there is the 7th Seal:

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

This certainly seems to show that while the three 7's are chronological in themselves, they occur in a concurrent/successive/simultaneous fashion. If we look at just the 6th seal and the 7th trump, we have to conclude these two occur very near in time, or in conjunction, or concurrent, but not simultaneous, even as they must happen together.

Clearly the 6th Seal is the wrath of God and the Lamb: "For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?" 

But so is the 7th Trump the wrath of God, or at least an iteration the wrath of God and the Lamb is now here: 

"Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

So then if the 6th seal is the wrath of the Lamb and the One seated on the throne, and it is, then the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ and who have not taken the mark or worshiped the image, or the name and number of the beast, are translated to the side of the Savior at this time per 1 Cor 15:51 and 1 Thess 4:13, and are saved from the ensuing wrath poured out upon the enemies of God on the earth. 

According to Paul in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, the trump will sound at the time the believers are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. First Corinthians 15 is more specific in that it's the last trump sounding which signals the gathering is a mere moment away. Since the Gathering which comes at the end of the age is associated with the Return of Jesus, and said gathering occurs at the last Trump, and the only last Trump associated with the end of the age is the 7th Trump of Rev 11, the last in the only known series of Trumps specifically called such and associated with the end of the age and Jesus' Return, this 7th Trump must occur before wrath begins.

This then shows the 7th trump occurring between the 6th seal and the 7th seal. If that's the case, and the 7's are chronological in and of themselves, which they are, the previous 6 trumps all sounded before the 6th seal, or at least to the point in time where the 6th seal opened, or when the 6th seal prophecy came to pass. I don't know if the seals are opened over time or if they are all opened at once and the events prophesied begin to form and find their fulfillment over time, but it doesn't matter; the events must occur as stated in accordance with the evidence of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, Rev 6 and Rev 11.

It seems also that the 6th seal and 7th bowl have strikingly similar events associated with their occurrence. Unless there are two occurrences of the mountains and islands disappearing then the 6th seal and the 7th bowl contain the same events. This would have to mean the wrath of God occurs very quickly in a short period of time. 

The 7th Trump and the 7th bowl are also quite similar:

7th Trump:

 

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

The Seventh Bowl of Wrath:

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake... And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each,a rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

There is without doubt a march toward a culmination at a particular space/time moment.

It's a real possibility the Seals, Trumps and Bowls are successive in the depiction of the three 7's. All the Seals are depicted as opening before the Trumps are depicted as sounding, which are all sounded before the Bowls are poured out. But the events represented by the opening, sounding and pouring find fulfillment in conjunction, concurrence and even simultaneously.

You mentioned the relationship between some Seals and Matt 24 as the fulfillment of 'birth pangs' or the 'beginning of sorrows'. I agree with this but I don't believe it ends there. The first 3 Trumps have everything to do with the first 3 Seals. Imagine the chaos on earth after Trumps 1-3. This would drive nations to war over scarce resources of food and water. Economies would collapse and rationing would be the norm as the world looks for relief. The next step in this would be some form of economic control of the basic resources. 

This must be in some form or another as the 6th Seal and 7th Trump are interrelated in time, events and the destiny of billions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sister]

When the 6th seal is opened it only gives a glimpse of the end of that stage,  not the lead up to it.  It shows us that the Lord has come, but has not striked yet. 

The 7th seal - gives all the details of the trumpets, showing the lead up to that scene above.  This is why it shows the 7 angels coming out, because it's filling in the story. 

The angels only come out once but it looks like another 7 come out again when we get to Rev 15.  But they are the same angels, and it's just giving more detail, for all the details are in the 7th seal - the revealing of what actually happens in the 6th seal from the first angel to the last.

 

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hey Joe.

I like this and I'm happy you brought it up. Should be a good one. I agree Rev isn't a strict chronology. There are chronological sections but a strict chronology would make no sense. I see the format as well. The narrative advances and then returns to give more detail. 

Well...(I'm going to take some editing liberties for clarity, to highlight what I feel are the essential facts)

The Sixth Seal:

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

The Seventh Trump:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Then the temple of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple. And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

The Seventh Bowl of Wrath:

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake.Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found. And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each,a rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

Then there is the 7th Seal:

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

This certainly seems to show that while the three 7's are chronological in themselves, they occur in a concurrent/successive/simultaneous fashion. If we look at just the 6th seal and the 7th trump, we have to conclude these two occur very near in time, or in conjunction, or concurrent, but not simultaneous, even as they must happen together.

Clearly the 6th Seal is the wrath of God and the Lamb: "For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?" 

But so is the 7th Trump the wrath of God, or at least an iteration the wrath of God and the Lamb is now here: 

"Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

So then if the 6th seal is the wrath of the Lamb and the One seated on the throne, and it is, then the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ and who have not taken the mark or worshiped the image, or the name and number of the beast, are translated to the side of the Savior at this time per 1 Cor 15:51 and 1 Thess 4:13, and are saved from the ensuing wrath poured out upon the enemies of God on the earth. 

According to Paul in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, the trump will sound at the time the believers are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. First Corinthians 15 is more specific in that it's the last trump sounding which signals the gathering is a mere moment away. Since the Gathering which comes at the end of the age is associated with the Return of Jesus, and said gathering occurs at the last Trump, and the only last Trump associated with the end of the age is the 7th Trump of Rev 11, the last in the only known series of Trumps specifically called such and associated with the end of the age and Jesus' Return, this 7th Trump must occur before wrath begins.

This then shows the 7th trump occurring between the 6th seal and the 7th seal. If that's the case, and the 7's are chronological in and of themselves, which they are, the previous 6 trumps all sounded before the 6th seal, or at least to the point in time where the 6th seal opened, or when the 6th seal prophecy came to pass. I don't know if the seals are opened over time or if they are all opened at once and the events prophesied begin to form and find their fulfillment over time, but it doesn't matter; the events must occur as stated in accordance with the evidence of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, Rev 6 and Rev 11.

It seems also that the 6th seal and 7th bowl have strikingly similar events associated with their occurrence. Unless there are two occurrences of the mountains and islands disappearing then the 6th seal and the 7th bowl contain the same events. This would have to mean the wrath of God occurs very quickly in a short period of time. 

The 7th Trump and the 7th bowl are also quite similar:

7th Trump:

 

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

The Seventh Bowl of Wrath:

And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake... And huge hailstones, about a hundred pounds each,a rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous.

There is without doubt a march toward a culmination at a particular space/time moment.

It's a real possibility the Seals, Trumps and Bowls are successive in the depiction of the three 7's. All the Seals are depicted as opening before the Trumps are depicted as sounding, which are all sounded before the Bowls are poured out. But the events represented by the opening, sounding and pouring find fulfillment in conjunction, concurrence and even simultaneously.

You mentioned the relationship between some Seals and Matt 24 as the fulfillment of 'birth pangs' or the 'beginning of sorrows'. I agree with this but I don't believe it ends there. The first 3 Trumps have everything to do with the first 3 Seals. Imagine the chaos on earth after Trumps 1-3. This would drive nations to war over scarce resources of food and water. Economies would collapse and rationing would be the norm as the world looks for relief. The next step in this would be some form of economic control of the basic resources. 

This must be in some form or another as the 6th Seal and 7th Trump are interrelated in time, events and the destiny of billions.

Hi Diaste,

Let's say that you and I are going on a journey. We're going from California to New York. Where do we begin? We pull out a road map. You've got one for the State of California, showing different cities and how to get to each one. I've got one for New York, showing the same thing. We look at each other and say " that's not going to help us get there. We need a road map that shows us all the highways from California to New York." We pull into a gas station and purchase a USA road map that will help us get there.

In the same way, we need a "map" to guide us through to the end times. It's not much help to look at Paul's epistles, for they only show us the "city" maps. Revelation is a bigger map, but it still only shows us the "state or county maps". We need a bigger map.

Jesus gives us the full map, the road map to the end times and His glorious return.  It's the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:1-31.........the parables that follow, through to Matthew 26.

If we were to take Matthew 24 and lay it side-by-side with Revelation 6, we can see 13 comparisons. If we look at Matt 24, we see these 13 signs and the order they occur in,  and then if we compare with Rev 6-8, we see the exact same signs in the exact same order. This is our road map to the end times. It was given by Jesus. 

So let's look at them:

Matt 24:4-5......."See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name saying, 'I am the Christ". In Luke's version, He tells us they will say 'I am he'.....(they will claim to be the historic Jesus)

Rev 6......The rider of the white horse brings deception in the form of false messiahs, the white horse being symbolic of them pretending to be Jesus. Conquering is spiritual overcoming, deception.......not by military means.

-------------------

Matt 24:6.....'Wars and rumors of war', and from Luke....'a time of chaos'.

Rev 6.....Rider of the red horse.....he will take peace from the earth and cause terrible bloodshed.......given a great sword (possibly nuclear weapons)

-------------------

Matt 24:7.....famines, earthquakes (seismos, possibly from nuclear war)

Rev 6.....Rider of the black horse who we hear quoting a price for wheat and barley...a days wage to buy a loaf of bread....widespread famine

--------------------

Jesus then pauses, and termed these 3 initial signs as 'the beginning of birth pains"

It is this...."Beginning of birth pangs"....that we should pay attention to.

Since Jesus was talking to His disciples, who were Jewish, He used this term so that they would understand the meaning of it.

Basically, the Jews referred to these "birth pangs"......as literally, "the birth pangs of the Messiah". They are the birth pangs that Israel (personified as a woman) experiences which culminate in the "birth", or coming into the world, of the Messiah.

In other words,  Israel will experience great distress and tribulation, (represented as birth pangs) before the coming of the Messiah into the world. The second coming.

Most scholars believe these 3 signs occur during the first half of the Tribulation. So do I.

Jesus then tells us, all Christians including Jewish believers in Israel, to watch for the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by the Prophet Daniel. (Matt 24:9, 15) This is when God grants the  antichrist authority for 42 months, as seen in Rev 13:5. The parallel sign is in Rev 6, the rider of the green horse who is given authority over 1/4 of the earth. This is the beginning of the 'Great Tribulation'. The parallel sign in Revelation is the opening of the 5th seal, the souls under the altar. They cry out to God to avenge their blood.

Matt 24: 29-31.....After the Trib, the sun is darkened, the moon won't give light, stars fall from the sky, powers of heaven shaken, and Jesus comes.

Rev 6:12..... sun became black as sackcloth, moon became like blood, stars fall to the earth. and Jesus comes seated on His Throne., He blows a Great Trumpet, and sends His angels to gather His elect....resurrection and rapture.

So, within the first six seals of Rev and the signs Jesus gives in Matt 24, there are 13 signs that are exactly the same and in the same order.

It is then that the angels are summoned and given 7 trumpets. These trumpets are blown by angels.

The trumpet that Jesus blows, the last trumpet, is a series of trumpets that are blown on Yom Teruah, the Feast of Blowing of the Trumpets.  The last trumpet blast on that day (tekiah gadolah literally "great sound of a trumpet) is the one that Jesus will blow to herald His return and for the resurrection and rapture. There were three trumpet blasts on mo'edim....(feasts of the Lord). The first trumpet was blown on Pentecost (Shavuot) and the last trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah. The Jubilee trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur of Jubilee years to announce the Jubilee.

Now, let's look at the seals, trumpets and bowls and why they must be consecutive and not concurrent.

Look at this graphic:

Reason	Implication
Rev. 15:1 claims the 7 Bowls are the last aspect of God’s Wrath.	If the 7 Bowls are the “last” aspect of God’s Wrath, another aspect (the Trumpet Judgments) must precede them
Rev. 8:1 clearly shows that the 7 Trumpets are given to the angels after the seventh seal is broken	If the 7 Trumpets are blown after the seventh seal, the Seals obviously precede the Trumpet Judgments
Silence occurs after the seventh seal is broken. In Zeph. 1:7, silence is shown to precede the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath)	If silence must precede the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath), all of the Seals must precede God’s Wrath as well. By extension, the Seals must precede the Trumpets and Bowls which are God’s Wrath
Each of the septets (Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls) are progressively worse than the preceding	This implies a progressive worsening order of events
At the fifth seal, the martyrs under the altar are told to wait for God’s avenging of their murder	By extension, God’s Wrath (the Trumpets and Bowls) cannot have occurred before the fifth seal
The Celestial Earthly Disturbance Event occurs at the sixth seal. In Joel 2:30-31 we are told this precedes the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath)	By extension, God’s Wrath (the Trumpets and Bowls) cannot have occurred before the sixth seal.
In Rev. 7:3, God instructs his angels to not damage the earth or the seas or the trees prior to sealing the 144,000	The first three trumpets damage the earth, the sea, and the trees. By extension the Trumpet Judgments must follow this sealing event

 

This is overwhelming evidence that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are consecutive and not concurrent.

Let's look at another one:

 

Timing of Thundering, Lightning, Voices, and Earthquakes.................Revelation....................Specifics...............

Prior to the Seals                                                                                        Rev. 4:5                        Lightning, “peals of thunder,” and seven lamps burning before the throne

Prior to the Trumpets                                                                                Rev. 8:5                         Lightning, “peals of thunder,” and an earthquake

Prior to the Bowls                                                                                      Rev. 11:19                       Lightning, “peals of thunder,” an earthquake, and a hailstorm

After the Bowls                                                                                           Rev. 16:18                      Lightning, sounds, “peals of thunder,” an earthquake that levels all the cities of                                                                                                                                                               earth, and 100 lb. hailstones

 

Here we see that with each successive transition, something new is added........earthquakes, hailstorms, sounds. The intensity of the events increase as well. The final earthquake levels all the cities of the world, and bombards them with 100 lb hailstones.  

So although judgments may seem similar in the various groupings of seven, they are not the same events. 

God continually desires for all people to repent and only gradually increases the severity of His judgments.......allowing for a change of heart.

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

Matt 24:4-5......."See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name saying, 'I am the Christ". In Luke's version, He tells us they will say 'I am he'.....(they will claim to be the historic Jesus)

Rev 6......The rider of the white horse brings deception in the form of false messiahs, the white horse being symbolic of them pretending to be Jesus. Conquering is spiritual overcoming, deception.......not by military means.

-------------------

Matt 24:6.....'Wars and rumors of war', and from Luke....'a time of chaos'.

Rev 6.....Rider of the red horse.....he will take peace from the earth and cause terrible bloodshed.......given a great sword (possibly nuclear weapons)

-------------------

Matt 24:7.....famines, earthquakes (seismos, possibly from nuclear war)

Rev 6.....Rider of the black horse who we hear quoting a price for wheat and barley...a days wage to buy a loaf of bread....widespread famine

Yes. This is quite apparent.

 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

In other words,  Israel will experience great distress and tribulation, (represented as birth pangs) before the coming of the Messiah into the world. The second coming.

 

This appears to be the remnants of dispensationalism. Placing the burden on someone other than ourselves as if we are not a part of this. Paul told us there is no Jew or Greek. Jesus said the time of testing was coming on the whole world. The conclusion here is inaccurate at best.

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 

The trumpet that Jesus blows, the last trumpet, is a series of trumpets that are blown on Yom Teruah, the Feast of Blowing of the Trumpets.  The last trumpet blast on that day (tekiah gadolah literally "great sound of a trumpet) is the one that Jesus will blow to herald His return and for the resurrection and rapture. There were three trumpet blasts on mo'edim....(feasts of the Lord). The first trumpet was blown on Pentecost (Shavuot) and the last trumpet was blown on Yom Teruah. The Jubilee trumpet was blown on Yom Kippur of Jubilee years to announce the Jubilee.

This is inaccurate as well. You can bet Paul didn't refer to a past fulfilled bit of liturgy when he went about teaching freedom from the law. I would be hard pressed to believe Paul had this in mind in light of all his other teachings on freedom and liberty in Christ. But let's say he did. The last trump would be unclear.

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first [day] of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation."

This is all that is written in scripture about this memorial. It's not a feast, it's a call to remembrance with no specified first or last Trump. Talmudic tradition has things to say about it but man's tradition is a poor example of the truth that is Jesus Christ. 

They only actual last trump so specified and associated with the end of the age and the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ is the 7th Trump of Revelation. It's the last in the only specified series concerning His coming. The 'last trump' simply cannot refer to anything else. 

 

 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Now, let's look at the seals, trumpets and bowls and why they must be consecutive and not concurrent.

Look at this graphic:

Reason	Implication
Rev. 15:1 claims the 7 Bowls are the last aspect of God’s Wrath.	If the 7 Bowls are the “last” aspect of God’s Wrath, another aspect (the Trumpet Judgments) must precede them
Rev. 8:1 clearly shows that the 7 Trumpets are given to the angels after the seventh seal is broken	If the 7 Trumpets are blown after the seventh seal, the Seals obviously precede the Trumpet Judgments
Silence occurs after the seventh seal is broken. In Zeph. 1:7, silence is shown to precede the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath)	If silence must precede the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath), all of the Seals must precede God’s Wrath as well. By extension, the Seals must precede the Trumpets and Bowls which are God’s Wrath
Each of the septets (Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls) are progressively worse than the preceding	This implies a progressive worsening order of events
At the fifth seal, the martyrs under the altar are told to wait for God’s avenging of their murder	By extension, God’s Wrath (the Trumpets and Bowls) cannot have occurred before the fifth seal
The Celestial Earthly Disturbance Event occurs at the sixth seal. In Joel 2:30-31 we are told this precedes the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath)	By extension, God’s Wrath (the Trumpets and Bowls) cannot have occurred before the sixth seal.
In Rev. 7:3, God instructs his angels to not damage the earth or the seas or the trees prior to sealing the 144,000	The first three trumpets damage the earth, the sea, and the trees. By extension the Trumpet Judgments must follow this sealing event

 

This is overwhelming evidence that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are consecutive and not concurrent.

It's actually underwhelming as only the bowls are called the Wrath of God.

7th Trump

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art {5625;3801"0>, and wast, and art to come ; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which"

The verb 'is come' means arrival, falls, to come, entered, expected, or next. This cannot be construed as wrath having come before this as is the contention of your chart above. 

13 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Let's look at another one:

 

Timing of Thundering, Lightning, Voices, and Earthquakes.................Revelation....................Specifics...............

Prior to the Seals                                                                                        Rev. 4:5                        Lightning, “peals of thunder,” and seven lamps burning before the throne

Prior to the Trumpets                                                                                Rev. 8:5                         Lightning, “peals of thunder,” and an earthquake

Prior to the Bowls                                                                                      Rev. 11:19                       Lightning, “peals of thunder,” an earthquake, and a hailstorm

After the Bowls                                                                                           Rev. 16:18                      Lightning, sounds, “peals of thunder,” an earthquake that levels all the cities of                                                                                                                                                               earth, and 100 lb. hailstones

 

Here we see that with each successive transition, something new is added........earthquakes, hailstorms, sounds. The intensity of the events increase as well. The final earthquake levels all the cities of the world, and bombards them with 100 lb hailstones.  

So although judgments may seem similar in the various groupings of seven, they are not the same events. 

God continually desires for all people to repent and only gradually increases the severity of His judgments.......allowing for a change of heart.

 

This really proves the point of similar events, not dissimilar ones. There is an assumption you make, a lot of people make, that these cannot be the same occurrences from Rev 11 and Rev 16. I think that comes from linear thinking. I mentioned this earlier but it bears repeating. Just because we see events depicted does not mean the event occurs in the same instant as the description. 

For instance, the 7th seal is opened, wrath is coming in the wake by the mechanism of pouring out the bowls. What we are seeing in the

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." in Rev 11 is the coming wrath and the prediction by prophetic vision of that wrath being poured out culminating in

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

This must be true as there is an event often missed in Rev 16: "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." which is the same event as depicted in Rev 6 and caused by the greatest earthquake ever known, "and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

How is it that at the 6th Seal coming of Jesus all the mountains and islands moved from there places only to have the mountains and islands disappear a second time? Were they gone then replaced and moved again? A great calamity it would take to move the mountains and islands from their places. So then what? Some quick remodeling to put them all back only to have islands flee and mountains disappear? And this isn't some islands and mountains, it's all of them.

So no, Trumps are not wrath, Lev 23:24 has nothing to do with the last trump, and the 6th seal is the return of Jesus in conjunction with the 7th Trump which actually is the herald of the gathering and the beginning of the bowls of wrath.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 11/14/2019 at 12:18 AM, dhchristian said:

1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 

2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5 

3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11 

4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14 

5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16

6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19 

7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end 

Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this. (Rev. 1:19 ESV) 

Hi dh, 

I've heard this many times before...."The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 "

What do you mean by "church ages?"

What significance do these letters to the churches have by being in Revelation?

[dhchristian]

Just now, JoeCanada said:

Hi dh, 

I've heard this many times before...."The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 "

What do you mean by "church ages?"

What significance do these letters to the churches have by being in Revelation?

Hi Joe,

The church ages is nothing new, I think A.W. Pink ( a Calvinist) was one of the first to see this though his understanding was incomplete because it was written around WW1 and it has progressed even further.

So not only were these churches in existence when Revelation was written, They also forecast ages within the church over the course of time. So for example the church of Thyatira, and the Jezebel associated with it is the idolatry of the RC church during the time of Marianism was at its max before the counter reformation. Protestantism and the reformation became what is known as the Sardis age, which was followed by Philadelphia which is the fundamentalism of the 18th to 19th century, which has been followed by the post modern church which began with the Graf and Wellhausen, and involves the Pentecostal movement, which grew into the prosperity and emergent churches we have today.

For some reason I cannot find the Link to the A.W. Pink writings, But here is a link to that explains these ages.... I do not I disagree with the conclusion made by this writer at the end, RE: the rider on the White Horse, and see Philadelphia as fundamentalism in general, not just Wesleyanism. 

https://www.revelationendtime.com/church-ages    

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I've heard this many times before...."The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 "

What do you mean by "church ages?"

What significance do these letters to the churches have by being in Revelation?

The chronology in Revelation matches what Jesus gave us in Matthew 24.

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

The most basic understanding of the seven churches is that they represent the gospel of the kingdom being preached worldwide.  Whether they also represent a chronology of dominant church characteristics or regional inclinations is in my opinion an exercise in creative interpretation. 

I see it as more likely that the seven letters to the seven churches are meant to be a collection of "If the shoe fits, wear it" exhortations / corrections.

After the time of the seven letters (preaching of the gospel worldwide), then the seals will be opened (the end will come).

[missmuffet]

There are so many interpretations of the book of Revelation it can make your head spin. I have seen some scary interpretations and I have seen some funny interpretations. The key to understanding the book of Revelation is consistent hermeneutics.  I have gotten an excellent Bible study on the book of Revelation by a reputable and trustworthy Bible teacher I think that is the safest way to study Revelation. 

[Revelation Man]

On 11/28/2019 at 7:28 AM, Diaste said:

This then shows the 7th trump occurring between the 6th seal and the 7th seal. If that's the case, and the 7's are chronological in and of themselves, which they are, the previous 6 trumps all sounded before the 6th seal, or at least to the point in time where the 6th seal opened, or when the 6th seal prophecy came to pass. I don't know if the seals are opened over time or if they are all opened at once and the events prophesied begin to form and find their fulfillment over time, but it doesn't matter; the events must occur as stated in accordance with the evidence of 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4, Rev 6 and Rev 11.

It seems also that the 6th seal and 7th bowl have strikingly similar events associated with their occurrence. Unless there are two occurrences of the mountains and islands disappearing then the 6th seal and the 7th bowl contain the same events. This would have to mean the wrath of God occurs very quickly in a short period of time. 

The 7th Trump and the 7th bowl are also quite similar:

7th Trump:

All of the Seals, Trumps and Vials are Gods Wrath. The 7th Trump by the way is the 3rd Woe, which means the 3rd Woe is all 7 Vials. Rev. 8:13 tells us the Last Three Trumps are the THREE WOES, it says that explicitly. All 7 of the Seals are opened on the same day {the 1260 event of Dan. 12:7}. People think wrongly on this, like I did until a couple of months ago, its not OPEN A SEAL, wait for it to come to pass, then OPEN ANOTHER SEAL, its Open a Seal and tell that coming 42 month story about the Beasts CONQUERING......Minutes later {maybe seconds later} OPEN ANOTHER SEAL, and tell the coming 42 month story about the Beasts Wars or the taking away of the Peace, minutes later another Seal is opened and we get the News of the coming Beasts Famine that covers 42 months, then we get the Fourth Seals News of the coming Deaths/Sickness over a 42 month period of time. Seconds or Minutes later we get the coming 42 months of his MARTYRS. Then seconds later we get the Famous 6th Seal being opened, which ANNOUNCES Gods Wrath is at hand, which INCLUDES the coming 42 Months of tyranny the Anti-Christ Beast is going to bring forth over the next 42 months !! Then the 7th Seal is God allowing the Trumps to go forth. 

So ALL the Seals are the Lambs Wrath !! As are the Trumps, as are the Vials. The 5th Trump is the 1st Woe, the 6th Trump is the 2nd Woe and the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials. 

All of the Seal, Trumpet sand Vials are in order. In them we get the 42 month reign of the Beast over a 1260 day period, ending with the 7th Vial {a part of the 3rd Woe} where Jesus shows up.