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dhchristian

John's 7 visions and triangulating with other scriptures

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I am starting this post to gather my thoughts together on, seeing as the other one is gone off on a tangent. And I wanted to Gather together what I have in one cohesive Post. The Following is a list of John's seven "visions" that he saw, upon which his chronology will become self evident, and no need to put parenthesis in the text. 

1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 

2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5 

3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11 

4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14 

5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16

6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19 

7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end 

Of these seven visions each is chronological within the vision itself, so for example seal one will come first, and seal two second. But each vision is distinct from the others. Each has a different start point, some 2000 years ago, some not until the final week of Revelation. The First vision serves as an introduction and stops at the beginning of the final week, the Last vision as a conclusion and starts at the end of the final week. The Other five end at the Day of the LORD. 

Of those Middle five visions, There is overlap in chronology, so for example, Trumpet five can be followed by seal six and trumpet six, But never will trumpet 5 precede trumpet 4. 

The start time of the visions are as follows. Dates are approximates.

1 Pentecost, 30AD

2 Resurrection 30 AD

3 Start of the final week TBD

4 At the birth of Christ 4/3 BC

5 At the sixth Trumpet TBD 

6 At the fifth Trumpet TBD

7 At the end of the final week TBD

This all could have happened immediately after the resurrection of Christ, But the 2000 year church age was the mystery that was inserted into the timeline of events. Some of these things like the seals were opened immediately, but restrained as acknowledged by Paul writing For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)

Thus for example the church has had to deal with things like persecution (seal 5), and pestilence (seal 4... think black plague) and False apostles (seal 1... Nicolaitans, Those who rule over the Laity) throughout church History, But they have been restrained from overcoming the church. Seal 6 and seven were never opened, because the mystery of the church age was inserted therein. At the beginning of the final week The Antichrist/Beast will be Granted Power to make war and to overcome the saints, which begins the final week.

Continued Later....

BTW, You are welcome to comment, But I will not respond to your comments until after I am done presenting my full framework here.  

 

Edited by dhchristian

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Seal 6 and seven were never opened, because the mystery of the church age was inserted therein. At the beginning of the final week The Antichrist/Beast will be Granted Power to make war and to overcome the saints, which begins the final week.

The Doctrine of Immanence

Throughout the Epistles of the Apostles there is a what has come to be known as the doctrine of immanency. Some examples of this are as follows:

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. (Romans 13:11-12)

behold, the judge standeth before the door. (James 5:9b)

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.....For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:7,17)

This immanency in the apostles came from the fact that they all knew and understood the opening parts of the Olivet discourse. Like John said in Revelation, I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, (1:9A) These Opened seals were dealt with in the lives of the Apostles in the persecution they faced themselves, the famine, the wars, and rumors of wars, and their role in preaching the Gospel to the Uttermost parts of the World. Many have Observed these similarities in the opening of the Olivet discourse with the first five seals. (NOTE: Matthew is in BLACK text, Luke is in RED text, and Mark is in GREEN text. I Only included 1 verse from Mark as this is almost the same wording wise as Matthew.) 

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Underlined Above are what in effect are the first five seals of Revelation. All the Apostles knew that the next thing to happen was that the Abomination would occur which was followed by the Great tribulation and then their rescue after that tribulation. I am sure many thought the events leading up to 70 AD destruction of the Temple was this time, and many Christians fled Jerusalem because of this prophecy wisely so, But it was not until John Received his visions on the Isle of Patmos, that these events were clarified in the Body of Christ, which came circa 90AD.

Thus all the apostles knew before was that the main event that would be a trigger is the Abomination of Desolation, which would mark the beginning of a time of great tribulation After which they would be redeemed, the second coming of Christ. We, Now with hindsight can appreciate this and Know that His coming is immanent as well, And we too are sharing in their tribulation, And suffering for the name of Jesus, and will face Great tribulation before he comes. In the Wisdom of God, He chose not to reveal these things to the apostles, and the church until after the events of 70AD,because he Knew this would be used as Impetus by those early believers to flee Jerusalem, and Thus sparing the church to preach the Gospel throughout the World. But now we see another Abomination approaching that we must contend with before our redemption comes. This Second coming is Just as immanent as it was in the Apostles day and age, and has been throughout church History. 

Many In the church associate the doctrine of immanence with the Pre-trib rapture, But as you can see this doctrine as applied to the Early apostolic church before the siege and destruction of Jerusalem clearly showed They understood that the Return of Christ to restore all things would not happen until after the Great tribulation. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-17)

   

 

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Birth pangs versus Conception: The difference between tribulation and Great Tribulation

Having established in the first two comments above, what the early church understood of the end times, Pre-Revelation, We have established one of our navigational points. Their basis being the Olivet discourse. The chronology that is found there can be simplified by saying Birth pangs, leading to the abomination of desolation/ Great tribulation leading to the believers rescue and redemption. If all we had was the Olivet discourse, then 70 AD looks like a supreme candidate for the A of D and the Great tribulation, But we are given a second point of Navigation, and that being the Revelation given to John, which was given on the Island of Patmos around 90 AD well after the events of 70AD. Within that new Revelation we can still see this same structure, But with more details added to it, which Points to a yet future fulfillment of these events. So While the Olivet discourse has both a nearness to the events, and a distance to the events, That could be read like the Preterists and Amillennialists interpret end times, Revelation adds the futurist element to this, and clearly states that these events are pre-millennial, and yet to have their fulfillment.

I Mentioned in the previous post how the birthpangs in the Olivet discourse match the first five seals given by John in Revelation. Well he also gives us a sixth seal that matches the events that come after the Abomination of desolation and Great tribulation. So now, in a simplified manner we can state this timeline as seals 1-5, followed by and culminating in an event (A of D) followed by a time of Great tribulation, followed by our sixth seal redemption. The seals in revelation are easy to find but where is the A of D and the Great tribulation?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (rev. 7:14)

In this verse we see the term Great tribulation and this is event occurs during the sixth seal looking back, meaning the Great tribulation precedes the sixth seal.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev. 13:5-7)

Here we see both an abomination of desolation and a time of 42 months to make War on the saints and to over come them. Because revelation 13 comes after revelation 7, many have come up with all kinds of timelines that place these events after the sixth seal events, But what this in effect does is negate the chronology of the Olivet discourse. You see, Birth pangs lead to the time of Birth, and the great tribulation which is involved in child birth. When the first five seals were opened at the time of the early church, they were the tribulation which john in revelation aligned himself with, But they are not the great tribulation of Giving Birth. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (rev. 1:9) Some in the past have asserted that the great tribulation was in 70 AD, But John would have stated that here, but instead he called what he experienced and the church up until that time as merely tribulation. All of those birth pangs at the time of birth will be magnified in a great tribulation Known as Child Birth. The Great tribulation is the time we as the church give Birth, meaning those 5 seals of pangs are intensified in that final time of great tribulation. This Birth and Joy following the sorrow of Labor is found throughout scripture here is a sampling. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16) Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. (Isa 51:11) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. (John 16:21) Fear took hold upon them there, and pain, as of a woman in travail. (Psalm48;6) Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. (Isa 54:1) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thess. 5:3)

As You can see, the simplicity of Revelation is as simple as child birth. Birth pangs, and tribulation, lead to great tribulation and birth, which leads to Joy and redemption. None of this happened in 70AD, And John makes it clear that this is yet to come, We in the church age are partakers in those birthpangs Some of us, perhaps in this generation will be partakers in the Birth itself, But Know this that Joy follows that Great tribulation of Birth. The fact that there are antagonists involved in the great tribulation does not take away form this simplicity of revelation. Any Human on earth can understand this timeline of revelation, and there is no need for doctorate studies of theology to understand this. In fact those things can confuse the simplicity of events. 

 

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On 11/14/2019 at 8:45 AM, dhchristian said:

I am starting this post to gather my thoughts together on, seeing as the other one is gone off on a tangent. And I wanted to Gather together what I have in one cohesive Post. The Following is a list of John's seven "visions" that he saw, upon which his chronology will become self evident, and no need to put parenthesis in the text. 

1 The vision of the churches (ages) Approx. Rev 1-3 

2 The vision of the seals Rev. 4-8:5 

3 The vision of the Trumpets Rev 8:6-11 

4 The vision of the characters Rev 12-14 

5 The vision of the Bowls of wrath Rev 15-16

6 the vision of the battles Rev. 17-19 

7 The vision of the Millennium and eternity Rev. 20-end 

Of these seven visions each is chronological within the vision itself, so for example seal one will come first, and seal two second. But each vision is distinct from the others. Each has a different start point, some 2000 years ago, some not until the final week of Revelation. The First vision serves as an introduction and stops at the beginning of the final week, the Last vision as a conclusion and starts at the end of the final week. The Other five end at the Day of the LORD. 

Of those Middle five visions, There is overlap in chronology, so for example, Trumpet five can be followed by seal six and trumpet six, But never will trumpet 5 precede trumpet 4. 

The start time of the visions are as follows. Dates are approximates.

1 Pentecost, 30AD

2 Resurrection 30 AD

3 Start of the final week TBD

4 At the birth of Christ 4/3 BC

5 At the sixth Trumpet TBD 

6 At the fifth Trumpet TBD

7 At the end of the final week TBD

This all could have happened immediately after the resurrection of Christ, But the 2000 year church age was the mystery that was inserted into the timeline of events. Some of these things like the seals were opened immediately, but restrained as acknowledged by Paul writing For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)

Thus for example the church has had to deal with things like persecution (seal 5), and pestilence (seal 4... think black plague) and False apostles (seal 1... Nicolaitans, Those who rule over the Laity) throughout church History, But they have been restrained from overcoming the church. Seal 6 and seven were never opened, because the mystery of the church age was inserted therein. At the beginning of the final week The Antichrist/Beast will be Granted Power to make war and to overcome the saints, which begins the final week.

Continued Later....

BTW, You are welcome to comment, But I will not respond to your comments until after I am done presenting my full framework here.  

 

For the readers: are there any verses proving each of these is a DIFFERENT vision? I think it is all one long vision.

It seems now that DH believes that seals 6 & 7 are future. I agree on that.  I think the church has been waiting at the 5th seal - martyrs of the church age - since the early church. 

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On 11/14/2019 at 11:53 AM, dhchristian said:

The Doctrine of Immanence

Throughout the Epistles of the Apostles there is a what has come to be known as the doctrine of immanency. Some examples of this are as follows:

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. (Romans 13:11-12)

behold, the judge standeth before the door. (James 5:9b)

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.....For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:7,17)

This immanency in the apostles came from the fact that they all knew and understood the opening parts of the Olivet discourse. Like John said in Revelation, I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, (1:9A) These Opened seals were dealt with in the lives of the Apostles in the persecution they faced themselves, the famine, the wars, and rumors of wars, and their role in preaching the Gospel to the Uttermost parts of the World. Many have Observed these similarities in the opening of the Olivet discourse with the first five seals. (NOTE: Matthew is in BLACK text, Luke is in RED text, and Mark is in GREEN text. I Only included 1 verse from Mark as this is almost the same wording wise as Matthew.) 

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Underlined Above are what in effect are the first five seals of Revelation. All the Apostles knew that the next thing to happen was that the Abomination would occur which was followed by the Great tribulation and then their rescue after that tribulation. I am sure many thought the events leading up to 70 AD destruction of the Temple was this time, and many Christians fled Jerusalem because of this prophecy wisely so, But it was not until John Received his visions on the Isle of Patmos, that these events were clarified in the Body of Christ, which came circa 90AD.

Thus all the apostles knew before was that the main event that would be a trigger is the Abomination of Desolation, which would mark the beginning of a time of great tribulation After which they would be redeemed, the second coming of Christ. We, Now with hindsight can appreciate this and Know that His coming is immanent as well, And we too are sharing in their tribulation, And suffering for the name of Jesus, and will face Great tribulation before he comes. In the Wisdom of God, He chose not to reveal these things to the apostles, and the church until after the events of 70AD,because he Knew this would be used as Impetus by those early believers to flee Jerusalem, and Thus sparing the church to preach the Gospel throughout the World. But now we see another Abomination approaching that we must contend with before our redemption comes. This Second coming is Just as immanent as it was in the Apostles day and age, and has been throughout church History. 

Many In the church associate the doctrine of immanence with the Pre-trib rapture, But as you can see this doctrine as applied to the Early apostolic church before the siege and destruction of Jerusalem clearly showed They understood that the Return of Christ to restore all things would not happen until after the Great tribulation. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-17)

For  the readers: since DH is not going to answer:

It seems that now DH agrees with me: that the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.  

I think Revelation was written over 20 years AFTER 70 AD. The early church had the books of Thessalonians long before they had Revelation.  Therefore it makes sense that they believed in Paul's rapture before the Day of the Lord way back then. 

The church has ALWAYS believed in the doctrine of imminence. 

It is true that looking forward in time, often people see only the mountain peaks of prophecy, but don't see4 what is in the valleys between. The disciples asked Jesus if He was going to start His earthly kingdom then, right after His resurrection. That is what they KNEW was ahead from Old Testament prophecies. What they did NOT know was that Israel was going to reject Him as their Messiah and God would turn to raise up the Gentile church - up to and including the pretrib rapture that will bring in the fulness of the Gentiles.  They saw only the future physical kingdom. But that was before Paul's letters were written! 

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On 11/16/2019 at 10:03 AM, dhchristian said:

Birth pangs versus Conception: The difference between tribulation and Great Tribulation

Having established in the first two comments above, what the early church understood of the end times, Pre-Revelation, We have established one of our navigational points. Their basis being the Olivet discourse. The chronology that is found there can be simplified by saying Birth pangs, leading to the abomination of desolation/ Great tribulation leading to the believers rescue and redemption. If all we had was the Olivet discourse, then 70 AD looks like a supreme candidate for the A of D and the Great tribulation, But we are given a second point of Navigation, and that being the Revelation given to John, which was given on the Island of Patmos around 90 AD well after the events of 70AD. Within that new Revelation we can still see this same structure, But with more details added to it, which Points to a yet future fulfillment of these events. So While the Olivet discourse has both a nearness to the events, and a distance to the events, That could be read like the Preterists and Amillennialists interpret end times, Revelation adds the futurist element to this, and clearly states that these events are pre-millennial, and yet to have their fulfillment.

I Mentioned in the previous post how the birthpangs in the Olivet discourse match the first five seals given by John in Revelation. Well he also gives us a sixth seal that matches the events that come after the Abomination of desolation and Great tribulation. So now, in a simplified manner we can state this timeline as seals 1-5, followed by and culminating in an event (A of D) followed by a time of Great tribulation, followed by our sixth seal redemption. The seals in revelation are easy to find but where is the A of D and the Great tribulation?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (rev. 7:14)

In this verse we see the term Great tribulation and this is event occurs during the sixth seal looking back, meaning the Great tribulation precedes the sixth seal.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev. 13:5-7)

Here we see both an abomination of desolation and a time of 42 months to make War on the saints and to over come them. Because revelation 13 comes after revelation 7, many have come up with all kinds of timelines that place these events after the sixth seal events, But what this in effect does is negate the chronology of the Olivet discourse. You see, Birth pangs lead to the time of Birth, and the great tribulation which is involved in child birth. When the first five seals were opened at the time of the early church, they were the tribulation which john in revelation aligned himself with, But they are not the great tribulation of Giving Birth. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (rev. 1:9) Some in the past have asserted that the great tribulation was in 70 AD, But John would have stated that here, but instead he called what he experienced and the church up until that time as merely tribulation. All of those birth pangs at the time of birth will be magnified in a great tribulation Known as Child Birth. The Great tribulation is the time we as the church give Birth, meaning those 5 seals of pangs are intensified in that final time of great tribulation. This Birth and Joy following the sorrow of Labor is found throughout scripture here is a sampling. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16) Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away. (Isa 51:11) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. (John 16:21) Fear took hold upon them there, and pain, as of a woman in travail. (Psalm48;6) Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. (Isa 54:1) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thess. 5:3)

As You can see, the simplicity of Revelation is as simple as child birth. Birth pangs, and tribulation, lead to great tribulation and birth, which leads to Joy and redemption. None of this happened in 70AD, And John makes it clear that this is yet to come, We in the church age are partakers in those birthpangs Some of us, perhaps in this generation will be partakers in the Birth itself, But Know this that Joy follows that Great tribulation of Birth. The fact that there are antagonists involved in the great tribulation does not take away form this simplicity of revelation. Any Human on earth can understand this timeline of revelation, and there is no need for doctorate studies of theology to understand this. In fact those things can confuse the simplicity of events. 

 

For the readers: here is where DH and I disagree completely. I don't think the "great tribulation" in Rev. 7 is referring to the days of GT that Jesus spoke of - days of GT greater than any before or any after. WHY do I believe that? Many reasons: first, Jesus said the days of GT HE was speaking of would come AFTER the abomination. We can determine the time of the abomination as at the 7th trumpet using Dan. 9:27, What Jesus said about fleeing at the abomination, and then Rev. 12:6 when that fleeing begins. 

Then we can study REv. 13 and find out what events will CAUSE the days of GT Jesus spoke of. They will be the image and mark, and forcing people to bow to the image and receive this mark.  We find God's warning about the mark in chapter 14, proving to those who understand logic, that the mark will not be enforced until AFTER chapter 14.  

Then the third reason is simple: John shows the beheaded beginning to show up in chapter 15. 

Understanding these points, then the only way to imagine the days of GT Jesus spoke of as in the seals would be to tear out each verse in revelation, put them all in a hat, and draw out each verse in turn and create a chronology by chance. If chance showed the beheaded showing up in heaven (15:2)  before the great crowd (7:14) then one could guess which came first by chance. 

I think a better way is to just take Revelation in the order given - as it is written. 

Any Human on earth can understand this timeline of revelation  Agreed: if they just believe it as written!

Here is John's simple chronology:

1st 5 seals: history to us now

5th seal: NOW while martyrs are still being added to those at the 5th seal

Rapture then 6th seal - great earthquake - - cosmic signs

Intermission: between 6th and 7th seal:
     sealing of 144,000
     Church seen in heaven, after the rapture:

These two events MUST happen (God rearranging the setting for the next act: the 70th week starting with the 7th seal) before the 7th seal can be opened to  start the 70th week. 

7th seal: the 70th week BEGINS with the 30 minutes of silence

First six trumpets, first 1260 days of 70th week

7th trumpet sounds: marks the exact midpoint of the week.
    Abomination takes place
    Remnant flees into wilderness     (6:2)
    Satan is cast down from the heavens (chapter 12)
    Satan goes first after woman, then after the remnant of the church  (chapter 12)

God warns people of taking the mark (chapter 14)

Beast sets up image and mark (soon after abomination)

VIALS poured out:  After an indeterminate time, God starts pouring out the vials of His wrath, called plagues. They are designed to stop the beasts from their persecution, and "shorten" those days.

7th vial "marks" the end of the 70th week
     Total destruction of the world system as we know it.
     Cities around the globe destroyed, as the world's worst earthquake takes place.
Earthquake? Probably when the old testament saints are resurrected!

Wedding in heaven. 

Jesus and church get on white horses!
As Jesus splits the sky, as lightning shining from east to west, He sends out His angels:

This follows John's text - same order. 

Edited by iamlamad

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The Fall Feasts, and the Birth Pangs, and Conception.

It is said that the second coming of Christ will fulfill the fall feasts. These fall feasts begin a month before Rosh Hashanah, On Elul 1 which marks the beginning of the 40 days of Teshuvah (Repentance) This forty days is divided into the 30 days of Elul, and the 10 days of Awe, leading up to the Day of atonement, which is then followed by the feast of tabernacles beginning on the full moon of Tishri. The simple outline of these feast days is as follows: A time of sorrows followed by a shorter time of Great sorrow, followed by a season of Joy that lasts Eight days. This simple outline is the same one used by Jesus on the Mount of Olives When he explained the end of the Age to the Disciples. Simply Put Birth pangs and tribulation followed by Great tribulation, followed by The joy of His Return. The following link has some charts on these Fall Holy Days so that you can visualize this. https://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Sukkot/sukkot.html

As  shadow of things to come, the Holy Days of the Torah will have their fulfillment in end times. Much Like Christ Died on Passover was raised on the firstfruits, He is the unleavened bread, and the Holy Ghost came upon the believers at Pentecost, So too will these Feasts be fulfilled in that Order. Any Timeline that negates this ordering is likely in error. 

This then gives us a second point of navigation in developing a timeline for the end times, That follows exactly the Order as given by Jesus on the mount of Olives. Of course there will be naysayers who say this only applies to Israel, so this is to address this claim. Paul, In Romans, an Epistle addressed to gentile believers predominantly living in Rome, Writes about this Birthing process. He writes: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:18-23)

Thus Paul Himself confirms this time of Labor pains that all believers are in, and a coming time of travail, followed by the redemption of our bodies. He also confirms this in 2 Thess. 2 stating that the redemption of our bodies and our gathering to be with him will come after the Man of Sin declares himself God, and the Falling away occurs, then and only then will Christ return. At which time he will consume the Beast with the breath of his mouth and the brightness of His coming Meaning the beast rules before Christ comes. He also acknowledges the tribulation of these days compared with the restraint being removed on the Mystery of Iniquity which foretells of the great tribulation. 

So many people in the prophecy community have learned their pet doctrines that they cannot let go of, things such as differentiating between the saints and the tribulation saints, or The Pre-trib Rapture, or the Mortal wound that they cannot see the simple structure of end time events unfolding as a representation of child birth, Complete with birth pangs, giving birth, and the Joy that follows this time of Great tribulation. I Have given you here Two witnesses of this chronology, Both prophetic, One from the Old testament and one from the new. The time of Great tribulation will be a time of great testing, and many in the church will fall away, But if you remember that Great Joy follows that time, then You will endure... The endurance of the saints dictates this. As I have written before here, the restoration of Jerusalem is dependent on the fulness of the gentiles.... This should make a whole lot more sense now in relation to the full term of the pregnancy.

I Am going to stop here for now, as the naysayers are out again, and they do not have the ears to hear what Spirit has shown me.

God Bless.

 

 

 

Edited by dhchristian

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It seems that now DH agrees with me: that the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. 

For the record I have agreed with you on this since you posted this, but disagree with your interpretation of the seals. Jesus is not the rider on the white horse of seal one, this is the Usurper. He is the god of this world (little g) throughout this time But is restrained. Those first five seals will be unrestrained immediately at the start of the great tribulation. 

But of course you are welcome to parenthesize away at your leisure, if it helps you feel superior to everyone else. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor. 1;26-29)

 

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52 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

For the record I have agreed with you on this since you posted this, but disagree with your interpretation of the seals. Jesus is not the rider on the white horse of seal one, this is the Usurper. He is the god of this world (little g) throughout this time But is restrained. Those first five seals will be unrestrained immediately at the start of the great tribulation. 

But of course you are welcome to parenthesize away at your leisure, if it helps you feel superior to everyone else. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:That no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor. 1;26-29)

 

I am just trying to understand you. You think the first seal is church age, but also think it is the Beast of Rev. 13? I wonder, how old is he now? Perhaps around 2000 years old? Or do you think the first seal was just 20 or 30 years ago in the church age? Or perhaps you are thinking of a SPIRIT of Antichrist, not the man. Yes, for that I could agree, every evil spirit is a spirit of Antichrist. 

Sorry, no parenthesis here - or is one needed. One only needs to understand the context of the first seal - Jesus ascending and sending the holy Spirit down pinpoints the time of the first seal to as soon as Jesus ascended and took the book. 

Jesus is OPENING the seals, not riding the white horse. The white horse is the represent the CHURCH with the gospel.

What do you do with this verse then, that shows the red, the black and the pale riders ride together, leaving out the white horse and rider?

If these 4 are all associated with the Beast of chapter 13, then you have a bigger problem: they are all limited to 1/4 of the earth. Yet, chapter 13 tells us Satan gives the beast authority over the entire world. 

Yet another problem; Jesus opened the first 5 seals, but they were delayed action until our future. Sorry, that does not seem to be what John wrote. 

I read from the "experts" - that is the commentators - that suggest this crown given speaks of ultimate victory. (I have not as yet researched it.)  If this is the Beast before he is revealed, the beast will certainly not have ultimate victory; he gets thrown into the lake of fire. On the other hand, the church WILL have ultimate victory. 

By the way, I don't have "feelings" over any posts.  I just understand these scriptures, so post what I believe. I suspect you do the same.

By the way again, try to find even one word that portrays any kind of evil on the first seal. I have not found even one. 

Edited by iamlamad

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22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am just trying to understand you. You think the first seal is church age, but also think it is the Beast of Rev. 13? I wonder, how old is he now? Perhaps around 2000 years old? Or do you think the first seal was just 20 or 30 years ago in the church age? Or perhaps you are thinking of a SPIRIT of Antichrist, not the man. Yes, for that I could agree, every evil spirit is a spirit of Antichrist. 

The apostolic church had to deal with false Prophets and false apostles and false Christs right from the get go. John even said, Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (I John 2:18)

Not to mention all the false teachers and apostle Paul spoke of, and James and Jude and Peter. Once Satan realized the mistake he made in crucifying the LORD, he went out and about to Usurp authority in the church to replace Christ as the head of the church, The all in all. This has been going on since Pentecost. Satan was limited by Christ.. "The Gates of hell shall not prevail against My church"... So he went out to riding on a white Horse as a Wolf in sheep's clothing  with a Bow, but no arrows, Not as a military conqueror but as a mediator Between God and man, thus usurping this Authority from Christ Jesus. These are the Nicolaitans that John wrote of in revelation as well, which means those who rule over the Laity, and those who are truly Born again have been dealing with these antichrists (plural) ever since then in the form of man made institutional churches. This Rider on the white Horse of the first seal is the final one of these, will become THE antichrist. You can see this in the following passage as well.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:5-7)  

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus is OPENING the seals

Yes, Jesus is opening them, But The adversary is allowed to accomplish the wicked deeds therein. A seal is a hedge of protection, Just like in the story of Job. At first Satan was allowed to take away all he had materially, but the then a hedge was removed and he suffered Boils and wanted to die... We will be tested that way as well, and many will fall away. 

53 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What do you do with this verse then, that shows the red, the black and the pale riders ride together, leaving out the white horse and rider?

If these 4 are all associated with the Beast of chapter 13, then you have a bigger problem: they are all limited to 1/4 of the earth. Yet, chapter 13 tells us Satan gives the beast authority over the entire world. 

Actually, that is a problem with your theory, not mine. I say the seals are restrained, You said they were opened in the first century in totality, meaning the sixth seal is next. Something that is restrained is limited, say to 1/4 of the earth.... The Great tribulation is a Worldwide tribulation as is indicated By Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Yet another problem; Jesus opened the first 5 seals, but they were delayed action until our future. Sorry, that does not seem to be what John wrote. 

I read from the "experts" - that is the commentators - that suggest this crown given speaks of ultimate victory. (I have not as yet researched it.)  If this is the Beast before he is revealed, the beast will certainly not have ultimate victory; he gets thrown into the lake of fire. On the other hand, the church WILL have ultimate victory. 

By the way, I don't have "feelings" over any posts.  I just understand these scriptures, so post what I believe. I suspect you do the same.

By the way again, try to find even one word that portrays any kind of evil on the first seal. I have not found even one. 

You are losing me here. I think I already explained this, John limited the seals to 1/4of the earth, the Beast will be given over the whole earth, You think if you refuse the mark of the beast you will be eating well, or if you refuse the MOB you will get health care, or you will not be put to death by the sword? The tribulation is 1/4, the great tribulation is totality Just like the birthpangs are not the same as the pains of giving birth. Simple analogy that everyone who is human can understand. 

By the way again, try to find even one word that portrays any kind of evil on the first seal. I have not found even one. Already did above Went out to conquer (Usurp) Conquer = nikaō, From which we get Nicolaitans, Who Jesus Hates. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. (Rev. 2:6) Notice this written to the first church of the seven. 

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