John's 7 visions and triangulating with other scriptures

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The Truth is that you do not recognize that your faith is in your own understanding and imagination, and you have made this your god. I am not trying to get you to follow my theory or to dictate what you should believe, I am trying to get you to see and admit that you are wrong. You are using Jesus as an excuse not to correct yourself, this is known as denial. You have been taught some amazing things by the Holy Ghost, I will attest to that but your faith is still in your own carnal mind and imagination which interprets what you are shown to its own ends. This is the same thing that Balaam did. He was shown the truth and he pronounced the truth, but used his carnal mind to come up with a scheme to his own gain. That gain for you is putting yourself on the pedestal of a teacher who can look down others and dictate to them what they should believe. This by definition is Nicolaitanism. I am trying to get you to see this more so than accept my timeline. I Know the timeline will sort itself out in the end. Think of me as the talking donkey is if that makes you feel better.

I know this is difficult for you to understand, for I guess you did it some other way. GOD pushed me into studying Revelation. I did not want to. My older brother had been trying to get to into Revelation for years. I was obedient but at first not really willing. I BECAME willing as I began reading Revelation. Now get this part: I told God I would read it, but I would come with an empty slate, forgetting everything I had ever heard about it - and if I was to learn anything, He must teach me. So for three years I read Revelation, over and over, over and over, making NO EFFORT to understand anything. I mediated on it when I was not reading it. I was waiting. I was also spending a lot of time praying in the Spirit - you know - that step backwards for you.  Finally He began to teach me. How? He SPOKE WORDS. 

Now you find that His words disagree with your theory, so you imagine I am mistaken. You imagine I must have heard from another spirit. OF COURSE you base this on your theory being right!  I understand. RM has the same thoughts. 

I am trying to get you to see and admit that you are wrong.   OF COURSE behind this is your knowing your theory is RIGHT, so mine must be wrong. What if it is YOUR theory that is wrong?

You are using Jesus as an excuse not to correct yourself, this is known as denial.  You are trying to get me to deny it was really Jesus who taught me. And this only because you are sure your theory is truth. The truth is, "I know whom I have believed and and am persuaded" that He taught me truth.  What if it is YOUR theory that is wrong? 

You have been taught some amazing things by the Holy Ghost, I will attest to that So why do you think what you disagree with had to come from some other spirit? It is only because you believe YOUR theory is truth. What if it is YOUR theory that is wrong? 

your faith is still in your own carnal mind and imagination which interprets what you are shown to its own ends.  Myth.  You just want to put me down because I won't believe your theories. 

That gain for you is putting yourself on the pedestal of a teacher who can look down others and dictate to them what they should believe.  It MUST be that you feel "looked down upon." That is between you and God. I am here to teach. That is all.  You are free to believe or not; it is up to you. 

Sorry if I disappoint you, but I have no feelings for you good or bad. I accept you as a brother in the Lord. I just disagree with your theories. In fact, most of them.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

How interesting you quoted the angel telling people to worship God, while I was talking about the 3rd angel's message about the danger of taking the mark and being doomed to fire and brimstone forever.  I would say that was a nice sidestep on your part but still leaves your theory in a quandary: God gives the warning not to take the mark AFTER the days of GT are finished. 

CONTEXT. I quoted the verse for context, to show you what the message of the three angels are, a proclamation of Judgment. Let me try this again. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,.

123 Angels fly overhead and Proclaiming judgment is all this passage is. The Proclamation comes BEFORE the actions taken. And this passage is squarely pointing to the coming of the LORD Jesus in the clouds where he destroys the beasts kingdom, and pronounces judgment upon Him.

I Could make the exact same argument against you stating why is this angel saying Babylon is fallen, when the beast has yet to rise to power according to your theory. Do You see this? Probably not. No Such Problem in my timeline. If You note also your theory has a structure problem here as well, because shouldn't message 2 come After message 3? Again, I have no such problem, and again you will probably just add some parenthesis here to resolve it in your head. What are you up to now, some 30 or 40 sets of parenthesis? 

[dhchristian]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

These events are synonymous with the the sixth seal and the sixth trumpet.  For the readers: notice closely DH's use of "synonymous" meaning the 6th trumpet is at the same time as the 6th seal. What he is suggesting is simply impossible. The trumpets are written INSIDE the book, and the book cannot be opened until all the seals are opened first, exactly as John as written it: the 6th seal near the end of chapter 6, and the 7th trumpet much later in chapter 7. The truth here is, NO trumpet can be at the same time as ANY seal. This theory will be proven wrong for the simple fact it is ignoring chronology and is rearranging what John wrote.

The Book is the deed to the earth (Your words not mine) there is a specific time when this deed switches over, and that is the seventh trumpet.. Rev 11:15

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

You are using Jesus as an excuse not to correct yourself, this is known as denial.  You are trying to get me to deny it was really Jesus who taught me. And this only because you are sure your theory is truth. The truth is, "I know whom I have believed and and am persuaded" that He taught me truth.  What if it is YOUR theory that is wrong? 

You have been taught some amazing things by the Holy Ghost, I will attest to that So why do you think what you disagree with had to come from some other spirit? It is only because you believe YOUR theory is truth. What if it is YOUR theory that is wrong? 

your faith is still in your own carnal mind and imagination which interprets what you are shown to its own ends.  Myth.  You just want to put me down because I won't believe your theories. 

That gain for you is putting yourself on the pedestal of a teacher who can look down others and dictate to them what they should believe.  It MUST be that you feel "looked down upon." That is between you and God. I am here to teach. That is all.  You are free to believe or not; it is up to you.

Ask yourself this, in our discussions and debates here, How many parenthesis have you had to add to your theory to make it work? This is a rhetorical question for yourself, and I am expecting you to answer this on this forum, but as a self reflection Question.

Now ask yourself How many things have I complimented and agreed with you on in your understanding? In Fact I praised you on your explanation of when and how the seals began to be opened as your understanding enlightened my understanding on this.

Now ask yourself what have you praised me on in my understanding that has done the same for you?

Again, these are rhetorical questions for you to answer honestly to yourself In the Hopes that you will see how you view what I am saying here. You have not even given me the time of day as the old saying denotes. The Only thing you have learned is how to add parenthesis at your convenience whenever a contradiction in your theory is pointed out. then take the time to read this post I did some time back...

 

   God Bless.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

  6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here is truth: the days of GT Jesus spoke of comes AFTER the abomination. You know this. What you miss is that it is the abomination that DIVIDES the week.  But since one error leads to another, you don't read Daniel 9:27 as dividing in half, so that error has led to many more. From Strong's, that word, "chetsiy," is used in the KJV 3915 times as "the middle of the night " ("half") - the point in time that divides the darkness into two halves. (Can we trust Strong's?)  It comes from the root "Chatsah" which Strong's tells us means "to divide, cut in two, cut short, live half (of one's life)."

been over this with you already, midst of can be translated as half the week, as many versions do, both are grammatically correct, one is scripturally correct. Jesus places the abomination at the beginning of the end so I trust his words on this. Other scriptures such a s 2 thess. 2 verify this that the man of sin declares himself God thus revealing himself to be the Antichrist "first" Irregardless of whether you interpret the falling away as the departing. The first event is the AoD. As for Antiochus he declared himself god first at the start of the 2300 days hence he was nicknamed Ephimanes which means lunatic. Declaring yourself God is the abomination and is the reason why the Jews were so quick to Stone Christ when he said "before Abraham was, I Am". 

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the HALF THE WEEK of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the exact middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Please tells us which makes the most sense. 

and he has master covenant to the many-ones seven one and half of the seven he shall cause cease sacrifice...
And he shall confirm the covenant with man for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice...

This is from an interlinear: The bolded and larger print in the top line is the direct translation of "Chetsiy:" and half of

So you are saying this means he causes the sacrifice to cease for HALF THE WEEK?  Hmmm. If he STOPS the sacrifices at the midpoint, are then not then stopped for half the week?  I don't see much difference. You think the first half, I think the second half. 

the man of sin declares himself God thus revealing himself to be the Antichrist "first"  Let's look and see what is "first."

except there come a falling away first  What is first is the falling away or departing.  So you are wrong yet again. This is not that difficult: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining that revealing is "taken out of the way" or has departed.  Let's look further:

 

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

What do these verses tell us? First, verse 6:  something is withholding or restraining or holding back the man of sin so that he will be revealed at the right time. Next, WE NOW (after reading what Paul has just written) KNOW what is restraining. 

Verse 7: the spirit of antichrist is already at work in Paul's day but the one restraining will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way so there will by no more restraining. 

Verse 8. And then: WHEN? After the restraining force has been taken out of the way; THEN the wicked will be revealed. 

So what have we learned? The man of sin is simply NOT going to be revealed until the restraining one is taken out of the way.

Now, lets examine verse 3:

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Notice these words: "be revealed." What happens when he "be revealed?" Paul tells us "he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." That is what He is going to do once he "be revealed."  I counted 34 English translations that have it as "IS revealed." 

Wait! Paul said he CANNOT be revealed until the restraining force is taken out of the way! Exactly! This means that somewhere in verse 3 that restraining force HAS BEEN removed. And then the man of sin IS revealed.  The ONLY word in verse three-A that can possibly something "taken out of the way" is "apostasia." This has been translated as the very significant departing. So when Paul wrote NOW you know, the reason we now know is that HE TOLD US. The theme of the passage is the gathering. We know that a moment after the gathering the church will depart. 

What Paul is really telling us is that the church - as the restraining force - must be taken out of the way FIRST - and then the man of sin will be revealed. In Revelation we see the church departing at the 6th seal, and the man of sin being revealed at the 7th trumpet sounding - and those in Judea fleeing moments after.  I find this amazing: you and I read the same verse and come up with totally different conclusions. OF COURSE you will blame that on me. 

The truth then is that if one triangulates using wrong points, their conclusion will be wrong. 

The first event is the AoD  Wrong! it is the departing that comes first. Don't take my word for it, go back and read it.

Declaring yourself God is the abomination  I am so glad to see this! Yes, it is truth. Paul tells us that is exactly what the man of sin will do, after entering the temple. Now notice what Jesus says:

 

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

First, did you notice the parenthesis? I guarantee they are not in the Greek!  Notice: the moment they see the abomination they are to flee. And where do we see this fleeing? 

Rev. 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is why I have been saying all along that this verse in TIMING has to be only seconds after the abomination event.  I think the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven when the abomination takes place on earth. 

Not only is declaring one's self to be GOD is an abomination, doing it in a Jewish temple is an abomination. And doing in IN THE TEMPLE will fulfil this verse:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I think we both can agree, after the abomination (think chapter 11) the daily sacrifices must cease. The temple will need to be cleansed. For Antiochus it took 2300 days (or some think 1150). In our future, perhaps a little over 1260 days. 

What have we seen? The abomination must be very close to 12:6. I say in chapter 11. Now, what else did Jesus say?

 

⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation...

THEN WHEN? After the abomination. It is clear as day: the days of GT that Jesus spoke of MUST come after the fleeing that comes a moment after the abomination - the very reason they are fleeing. 

Notice the next verse:

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

God is going to use the vials of His wrath to shorten those days: and where are the vials? In chapter 16. this chapter is AFTER the seals in chapter 6.  (We are looking at the forest now, not a tree.)

Read these verses carefully:

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Do you notice that Matthew did not write THEN? No, he wrote WHEN. That is a HUGE difference. You are imaging that he wrote THEN as in right after verse 14.  In other words, there is TIME between verse 14 and verse 15. The time in Revelation between the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet. 

The gospel (the everlasting gospel) gets preached to all nations by the angels in Rev. 14: they cover all nations and all ethnic groups on their own language. And then the end will come. What end? The end of the 70th week and Jesus return as seen in Rev. 19.

I guess you have not noticed this, but after the event of verse 14, the "end" having come, the 70th week finished and then Jesus having returned -  the next event then is not the abomination: it is chapter 20 in Revelation!  You see, in verse 14 Matthew finished the Jewish age! The week has FINISHED. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

The Book is the deed to the earth (Your words not mine) there is a specific time when this deed switches over, and that is the seventh trumpet.. Rev 11:15

I agree: at the 7th trumpet. I agree on what the book is also. As you said, the book is the deed that gets transferred at the 7th trumpet. But what STARTED the trumpets? It was the final seal on this book opened that allowed the BOOK to be opened. Make no mistake, the 7th trumpet shows us the book opened. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

CONTEXT. I quoted the verse for context, to show you what the message of the three angels are, a proclamation of Judgment. Let me try this again. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,.

123 Angels fly overhead and Proclaiming judgment is all this passage is. The Proclamation comes BEFORE the actions taken. And this passage is squarely pointing to the coming of the LORD Jesus in the clouds where he destroys the beasts kingdom, and pronounces judgment upon Him.

I Could make the exact same argument against you stating why is this angel saying Babylon is fallen, when the beast has yet to rise to power according to your theory. Do You see this? Probably not. No Such Problem in my timeline. If You note also your theory has a structure problem here as well, because shouldn't message 2 come After message 3? Again, I have no such problem, and again you will probably just add some parenthesis here to resolve it in your head. What are you up to now, some 30 or 40 sets of parenthesis? 

I think the angel is prophesying. It is not fully accomplished until chapters 17 & 18. Yes, these messages are all warnings of judgment. But it just makes GOOD SENSE that the warning not to take the mark MUST come before the mark is being enforced. In my theory, that happens. In your theory, the days of GT are long over, and the warning from God not to take the mark came after the fact. Sorry, I much prefer my theory here. 

And you missed it again: the beast rises (the world now knows he is the beast after his abomination) in chapter 13. But by chapter 14 it is possible the False Prophet had not yet shown up. The image not yet built and the mark not established. 

The Proclamation comes BEFORE the actions taken.  I agree: the proclamation that if you take the mark you will be doomed MUST come before anyone actually takes the mark. This proves that in John's timeline the days of GT are FUTURE, not PAST. 

shouldn't message 2 come After message 3?  All three messages are for that time frame, just before the days of GT. It does not matter which message comes first. I see your point. No parentheses indicated here by the text. 

I will admit my memory is shorter than I wished, but I am trying to remember anything you have "added" to my thinking and I come up with nothing. Sorry about that. There have been very few points that we agree on. It seems we disagree at almost every point. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Look, I am neither denying, nor discrediting what you say you heard from Him. I am saying how you processed those words are in error. What He Told me and showed me is very similar to what you claim. He showed me the Day of the Lord is marked by sevens (Not in those words) Then he proceeded to show me a painting being painted. I did not understand this fully, and I am still figuring the nuances out but I know a painting begins by painting the background with Broad strokes, and then details are filled in. So when I first was given this I tried to process all this with the presumed timeline I was taught by well meaning teachers (Dispensationalist, Pre tribbers, primarily) Many of whom I still respect and listen to this day, But I had to throw all these preconceived ideas away before He could begin to teach me. I Had no pet doctrines that i was holding to I Just wanted to Know the truth, Where he lead I would follow. Where I see you at is that you have yet to do this and start again. Instead you are trying to make the revelation fit your understanding and timeline. You cannot do this and learn the Whole Truth from Him. Those preconceptions will always lead you back to original timeline. It's called circular reasoning.  

I have already explained this. I threw everything I knew or even thought I knew out the window, so to speak, before I started reading Revelation in ernest. I told God if I was to know anything, He would have to teach me. He did teach me. And for the most part, you disagree. In other words, my understanding and timeline CAME FROM HIM. He went line upon line, step by step.

First, find the exact midpoint, clearly marked. 

Then find the entire 70th week clearly marked.

Then understand the REAL message of chapters 4 & 5 including 12. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

But what STARTED the trumpets?

The start of the final week.... I Placed in my OP that the exact time is TBD. I Will go out on a limb and tell you what I think, though I have not researched this yet. I Believe the two witnesses starting their ministry is the first trumpet.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I think the angel is prophesying.

I Guess a proclamation of judgment is a prophecy in a sense. 

Just now, iamlamad said:

the days of GT are long over

No, I am placing the proclamation within days before the Beast  kingdom is destroyed, the two witnesses are resurrected, and the rapture occurs. AKA the day of Christ.

What you are saying is that These angels warn the world not to take the mark of the beast, which contradicts what Paul wrote about the strong delusion. I think many of those people who hear that proclamation will be stunned when they hear it, being so fooled by the strong delusion.

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:9-12)

I Believe the following will be their reaction when the proclamation is made, and they realize they believed the lie...

 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:16-17)

Sounds to me like People realizing they have fallen for a lie, and there is nothing they can do about it?