Unpardonable?

[KJVOnly]

Lol

[Michael37]

On 12/21/2019 at 4:37 AM, Chris0699 said:

Bad theology? How so?

Taking your earlier Scripture in Hebrews 6 the salient point regarding apostates, (ie. those who have fallen away from their earlier position of enlightenment and enjoyment of the gift of salvation and partaking of the Holy Spirit), who have ceased "going on unto perfection". These are they who now align themselves with the very people who crucified Christ, having an all consuming desire to be rid of Him and His teachings, having no interest in following Him, and having no belief whatsoever in His deity, or in the gospel messages of Salvation, Reconciliation, Sanctification, and Hope, which are inspired by God to be accepted by faith so that His grace can be made available.

It's bad theology to assume apostates are seeking to return to their former position as believers in Christ. We can go on to discuss whether Bunyan in his Puritanism also presents the Calvinist theologies of "limited atonement" and "irresistable grace" which lend themselves to errors regarding the predestinated behaviour and outcomes of both pilgrims and apostates, but we would also have to admit to elements of Arminianism in what Bunyan has penned.      

Heb 6:1-12
(1)  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2)  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(3)  And this will we do, if God permit.
(4)  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5)  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6)  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(7)  For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
(8)  But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(9)  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(10)  For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
(11)  And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
(12)  That you be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

[Chris0699]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:06 PM, Michael37 said:

Taking your earlier Scripture in Hebrews 6 the salient point regarding apostates, (ie. those who have fallen away from their earlier position of enlightenment and enjoyment of the gift of salvation and partaking of the Holy Spirit), who have ceased "going on unto perfection". These are they who now align themselves with the very people who crucified Christ, having an all consuming desire to be rid of Him and His teachings, having no interest in following Him, and having no belief whatsoever in His deity, or in the gospel messages of Salvation, Reconciliation, Sanctification, and Hope, which are inspired by God to be accepted by faith so that His grace can be made available.

It's bad theology to assume apostates are seeking to return to their former position as believers in Christ. We can go on to discuss whether Bunyan in his Puritanism also presents the Calvinist theologies of "limited atonement" and "irresistable grace" which lend themselves to errors regarding the predestinated behaviour and outcomes of both pilgrims and apostates, but we would also have to admit to elements of Arminianism in what Bunyan has penned.      

Heb 6:1-12
(1)  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2)  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
(3)  And this will we do, if God permit.
(4)  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5)  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6)  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(7)  For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
(8)  But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(9)  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(10)  For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
(11)  And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
(12)  That you be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

I don't see issues with his theology. Calvinism seems biblical as far as I can understand.

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Chris0699 said:

I don't see issues with his theology. Calvinism seems biblical as far as I can understand.

It depends on what is meant by Calvinism. There is a difference between what Calvin believed and what Calvinism has become, which is why the comment "Calvin wasn't a Calvinist", is sometimes thrown into the mix. 

Calvin differentiated between what he called "common grace" and "effectual grace",  the former being that experienced by, or intended for, the whole human race without distinction between one person and another,(Matt 5:45) and the latter being what Calvinists suppose to be that irresistable grace which extends only to those whom God has chosen to redeem. 

Love Your Enemies(Matt 4:44-46)
44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same?…Berean Study Bible

Quote: Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even though we respond voluntarily.
Wayne Grudem (b. 1948) from Systematic Theology (pg. 699) (not to be confused with Alexander Cruden b.1699 d. 1770)

• John 6:37-39 and 44 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Quote

In essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives.  [Michael37]

 

[Chris0699]

It's my pride. I need to be humbled. I won't humble myself. Even knowing what is on the line.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Chris0699 said:

It's my pride. I need to be humbled. I won't humble myself. Even knowing what is on the line.

What makes you so sure you have a problem with pride? What are you so proud of?

As Saul, Paul was a proud Pharisee until God intervened. Paul thought he had it all worked out until he met the Lord Himself. There is a plan for you to meet the Lord Jesus Christ one way or the other. (See below)

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 Act 9:1-9
(1)  And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
(2)  And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
(3)  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
(4)  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?
(5)  And he said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting: it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.
(6)  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what will you have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told you what you must do.
(7)  And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
(8)  And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
(9)  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

[Chris0699]

4 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

What makes you so sure you have a problem with pride? What are you so proud of?

As Saul, Paul was a proud Pharisee until God intervened. Paul thought he had it all worked out until he met the Lord Himself. There is a plan for you to meet the Lord Jesus Christ one way or the other. (See below)

Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 Act 9:1-9
(1)  And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
(2)  And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
(3)  And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
(4)  And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why do you persecut me?
(5)  And he said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting: it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.
(6)  And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what will you have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told you what you must do.
(7)  And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
(8)  And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
(9)  And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

I don't really know. Sermon after sermon, all kinds of Bible reading, and I will not repent or bow the knee to Him as Lord. I don't know the exact reason. I think it will take a Saul-like experience to change me at this point. But those are rare. Saul did not know who Jesus was or why He came, that's why he found mercy. But I know better.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Chris0699

[Michael37]

13 minutes ago, Chris0699 said:

I don't really know. Sermon after sermon, all kinds of Bible reading, and I will not repent or bow the knee to Him as Lord. I don't know the exact reason. I think it will take a Saul-like experience. But those are rare. Saul did not know who Jesus was or why He came, that's why he found mercy. But I know better.

Even genuine Christians struggle with pride. Since faith comes from willingly hearing the Word of God I like to make mention of relevant Scripture to those I am in conversation with.

Do Not Love the World
15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world— the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life— is not from the Father but from the world. 17The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.…Berean Study Bible 

I have a work colleague who was raised by Christian parents, attended meetings, and still does where his 90+ mother fellowships when they have the monthly lunch, and was water baptised as a teenager, but refuses to confess Christ as His Saviour and doesn't believe anyone goes to hell for anything. The problem with him seems to be bitterness. It has wreaked havoc in his life but instead of repenting and acknowledging his sin he resents having such a rough time. God has called me to be a constant witness to him which I have been for about 8 years now, always with prayer and agape, or unconditional love, and on that score we are really good friends, just with different perspectives.

[Chris0699]

9 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Even genuine Christians struggle with pride. Since faith comes from willingly hearing the Word of God I like to make mention of relevant Scripture to those I am in conversation with.

Do Not Love the World
15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world— the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life— is not from the Father but from the world. 17The world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God remains forever.…Berean Study Bible 

I have a work colleague who was raised by Christian parents, attended meetings, and still does where his 90+ mother fellowships when they have the monthly lunch, and was water baptised as a teenager, but refuses to confess Christ as His Saviour and doesn't believe anyone goes to hell for anything. The problem with him seems to be bitterness. It has wreaked havoc in his life but instead of repenting and acknowledging his sin he resents having such a rough time. God has called me to be a constant witness to him which I have been for about 8 years now, always with prayer and agape, or unconditional love, and on that score we are really good friends, just with different perspectives.

Well, I hope your friend will repent, and it's good that you've stuck with him.

[CaptWalker]

Well i'm sorry if i'm repeating what someone else has already said but didn't have time to read through all the comments...

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Because they said, HE HATH AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT." {Mark-3:29-30}

IDK, maybe i'm the exception, but to me anyway it seems pretty clear cut that the "blaspheming" was when the scribes and Pharisees basically accused Christ of casting out demons by the power of Satan, period. And unless you are doing the same thing now by ascribing miracles to someone having an unGodly/evil "power source" within, then i don't see how you could also be guilty of this?? But I do also believe the power of Satan is real and can be used by certain people to perform incredible acts, and even God Himself may help bring it to pass in allowing these so called "miracles" to occur, kind of like a precursor to 2ndThess-2:9-11.

Edited January 3, 2020 by CaptWalker