Is God a God of grace first? or is grace the exception?

[Behold]

48 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

"Justification is by FAITH alone.....its not by faith (Believing) and Torah (Law Keeping)"

Well, I actually BELIEVE Paul: "...but the doers [fn]of the Law will be justified."  (Rom.2:13)

I actually BELIEVE James: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.  (Jas.2:24)

So, it appears you've contradicted Rom.2:13 and Jas.2:24.

 

We can't just pick-and-choose what we like.

Right?

 

 

RIGHT !!

You cant just post 2 verses and say....>"gotcha'.

That's not how we'll do it. ok?

Let me give you the context, to all of this you dont understand correctly,  so that you can actually understand the verses you posted.

First, Rom 2:13, is Paul laying the groundwork, by explaining that all this law keeping, IF it could save you, .. you would have to keep them all., and even IF you did, =  Paul then writes in Philippians that HE DID keep them all, ....you didnt, i didnt, but he did.......so, In Philippians 3, he continues with more explanation of Romans 2:13, by explaining that even tho He kept all the Law......Blamelessly......that this is "dung", as compared to "The Righteousness of Christ."

See, Bibleperson, the New Testament, is not one verse then the next verse, and that is the end of the explanation.......not at all.   The New Testament, is to be rightly divided and what God did when He gave it, was put a piece here, a piece there, and then you have to STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED< and doctrinally correct by being able to not just paste and cut 2 verses, but actually be able to assemble entire Epistles in a dot by dot linear way, so that the entire NT becomes one big connected Truth.

What you just did is try to post 2 verses, trying to contradict  70% of the NT that Paul wrote about Justification by Faith   So, dont do that.   As that is what heretics do, because they dont know any bible, and they think they do.

See, where you have a problem, is common......you dont have context in all of this im going to show you..... because you only have 2-4 verses or less, that prove to you, that keeping law, is salvation, as that is what you are accusing me of not teaching, by using another poster's stuff.

Listen, You cant just yank a verse out of any type of context, and then say....>"see here, gotcha'......+ You got nothing.  You missed the net with the ball.   You failed.

So, Roman 2:13, is not Paul teaching the Law + Grace for salvation as you think,,,,,, as if we kept the law to be saved, then Jesus DIDNT HAVE TO DIE, DID HE? ???

But he did, and that is because the Law has NO NONE NADA part, in our REDEMPTION< as this is only accomplished by the Cross.

At some point, actually read the Epistle to the Romans, and discovere that "the law was given to lead you to the CROSS".......NEVER NEVER NEVER was it given to be a 2nd part of the Blood Atonement.

Understand?

Romans 2:13, is a context that Paul is using to explain Philippians 3, and also Romans 9:31 and 32, when he explains to YOU, that Israel has not been able to be redeemed by God, BECAUSE THEY KEEP TRYING TO DO IT BY LAW KEEPING. Instead of by "Christ ALONE"...."Jesus is THE WAY"...>Not a 2nd Way, or a Part II, along with the TORAH........ Got that?      So, God rejects this that you are believing..    

And you have the "time of the Gentiles", when Israel is STILL 2000 yrs since the Cross, STILL running around keeping Law, and are LOST SINNERS........ while Gentiles are being BORN AGAIN BECAUSE OF GRACE AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS = ONLY.

Do you understand this?

------------------------

Now, to your Jame's concept.

   In this verse you borrowed from someone else's post to me...., James is talking to WHO and for what purpose.? ??????  That is the context that you have to understand to understand what James is talking about..... As without a context you just have a loose verse being twisted into a theological pretzel.

Now.......Look at the verse immediately written before the one you quoted..    JAMES WRITES........ "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,""

Did you ever read that one?  As that one is "contradicting" the verse you posted and its the same Apostle.   So, why dont you realize this?    Its because you dont understand any of this....is why.

ITs because you have been taught bits and pieces but not context or doctrine, fella.

So, what is the context of all these verses in James that are connected to the one you posted?    Its this.... James 2:18 "  But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.""

Do you see what he is saying?      He is saying this........."I will show YOU YOU YOU"............and who is the  You?   The YOU is the context of the Jms 2:24 verse that you posted that has hung you up.

See, you didnt READ IT ALL.. You just ran with the usual online heretic stuff that people teach, where they take that ONE  verse out of context, out of James.

So look at all the verses, fella......ALL. as you can't get the context with just one.

James says... "ill show YOU my faith, by my WORKS"..

And who is YOU?  If you dont understand the YOU, then you have no context of understanding.... to even begin to understand the rest of the verse, which is your issue... And not just yours.

Listen. the YOU< is those people standing there.   He is talking to Believers........probably backslidden, or similar.  And he is telling them,  "faith is by grace"< but the fruit of faith is WORKS.

Its not the works that is FAITH.........its the doing that proves you have a living faith, that is not a "DEAD FAITH", that he talks about also.......Do you know that verse?

So, here is the understanding for you........James is talking to a group of cold believers, and he is telling them that the proof that their faith isn't cold, (dead), is that they do works..

Or as he says to them......I'LL SHOW YOU, YOU, YOU............NOT GOD...........GOT THAT?    HE SAYS, "ill show YOU, standing here, my faith, BY my works".

And why?   Because you will "know them ..THE BORN AGAIN.....BY, WHAT?.....BY THEIR WORKS, BY THEIR FRUIT".

SO, That is all there is to what James is teaching.

He is teaching about showing LIVING WORKS before others, ......... THE "you" in the verse, fella...........that proves their faith is not cold, hard, dead, useless, backslidden.

Thats all it is.

Your one  verse, that you yanked out of context...... is not related to losing salvation or any other heretical idea, that is similar.

 

 

Blessings,

Edited December 13, 2019 by Behold

[BibleGuy]

38 minutes ago, Behold said:

 

RIGHT !!

You cant just post 2 verses and say....>"gotcha'.

That's not how we'll do it. ok?

Let me give you the context, to all of this you dont understand correctly,  so that you can actually understand the verses you posted.

First, Rom 2:13, is Paul laying the groundwork, by explaining that all this law keeping, IF it could save you, .. you would have to keep them all., and even IF you did, =  Paul then writes in Philippians that HE DID keep them all, ....you didnt, i didnt, but he did.......so, In Philippians 3, he continues with more explanation of Romans 2:13, by explaining that even tho He kept all the Law......Blamelessly......that this is "dung", as compared to "The Righteousness of Christ."

See, Bibleperson, the New Testament, is not one verse then the next verse, and that is the end of the explanation.......not at all.   The New Testament, is to be rightly divided and what God did when He gave it, was put a piece here, a piece there, and then you have to STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED< and doctrinally correct by being able to not just paste and cut 2 verses, but actually be able to assemble entire Epistles in a dot by dot linear way, so that the entire NT becomes one big connected Truth.

What you just did is try to post 2 verses, trying to contradict  70% of the NT that Paul wrote about Justification by Faith   So, dont do that.   As that is what heretics do, because they dont know any bible, and they think they do.

See, where you have a problem, is common......you dont have context in all of this im going to show you..... because you only have 2-4 verses or less, that prove to you, that keeping law, is salvation, as that is what you are accusing me of not teaching, by using another poster's stuff.

Listen, You cant just yank a verse out of any type of context, and then say....>"see here, gotcha'......+ You got nothing.  You missed the net with the ball.   You failed.

So, Roman 2:13, is not Paul teaching the Law + Grace for salvation as you think,,,,,, as if we kept the law to be saved, then Jesus DIDNT HAVE TO DIE, DID HE? ???

But he did, and that is because the Law has NO NONE NADA part, in our REDEMPTION< as this is only accomplished by the Cross.

At some point, actually read the Epistle to the Romans, and discovere that "the law was given to lead you to the CROSS".......NEVER NEVER NEVER was it given to be a 2nd part of the Blood Atonement.

Understand?

Romans 2:13, is a context that Paul is using to explain Philippians 3, and also Romans 9:31 and 32, when he explains to YOU, that Israel has not been able to be redeemed by God, BECAUSE THEY KEEP TRYING TO DO IT BY LAW KEEPING. Instead of by "Christ ALONE"...."Jesus is THE WAY"...>Not a 2nd Way, or a Part II, along with the TORAH........ Got that?      So, God rejects this that you are believing..    

And you have the "time of the Gentiles", when Israel is STILL 2000 yrs since the Cross, STILL running around keeping Law, and are LOST SINNERS........ while Gentiles are being BORN AGAIN BECAUSE OF GRACE AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS = ONLY.

Do you understand this?

------------------------

Now, to your Jame's concept.

   In this verse you borrowed from someone else's post to me...., James is talking to WHO and for what purpose.? ??????  That is the context that you have to understand to understand what James is talking about..... As without a context you just have a loose verse being twisted into a theological pretzel.

Now.......Look at the verse immediately written before the one you quoted..    JAMES WRITES........ "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,""

Did you ever read that one?  As that one is "contradicting" the verse you posted and its the same Apostle.   So, why dont you realize this?    Its because you dont understand any of this....is why.

ITs because you have been taught bits and pieces but not context or doctrine, fella.

So, what is the context of all these verses in James that are connected to the one you posted?    Its this.... James 2:18 "  But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.""

Do you see what he is saying?      He is saying this........."I will show YOU YOU YOU"............and who is the  You?   The YOU is the context of the Jms 2:24 verse that you posted that has hung you up.

See, you didnt READ IT ALL.. You just ran with the usual online heretic stuff that people teach, where they take that ONE  verse out of context, out of James.

So look at all the verses, fella......ALL. as you can't get the context with just one.

James says... "ill show YOU my faith, by my WORKS"..

And who is YOU?  If you dont understand the YOU, then you have no context of understanding.... to even begin to understand the rest of the verse, which is your issue... And not just yours.

Listen. the YOU< is those people standing there.   He is talking to Believers........probably backslidden, or similar.  And he is telling them,  "faith is by grace"< but the fruit of faith is WORKS.

Its not the works that is FAITH.........its the doing that proves you have a living faith, that is not a "DEAD FAITH", that he talks about also.......Do you know that verse?

So, here is the understanding for you........James is talking to a group of cold believers, and he is telling them that the proof that their faith isn't cold, (dead), is that they do works..

Or as he says to them......I'LL SHOW YOU, YOU, YOU............NOT GOD...........GOT THAT?    HE SAYS, "ill show YOU, standing here, my faith, BY my works".

And why?   Because you will "know them ..THE BORN AGAIN.....BY, WHAT?.....BY THEIR WORKS, BY THEIR FRUIT".

SO, That is all there is to what James is teaching.

He is teaching about showing LIVING WORKS before others, ......... THE "you" in the verse, fella...........that proves their faith is not cold, hard, dead, useless, backslidden.

Thats all it is.

Your one  verse, that you yanked out of context...... is not related to losing salvation or any other heretical idea, that is similar.

 

 

Blessings,

" IF it could save you, .. you would have to keep them all.,"

Paul didn't say IF....you just made that up.

AND, Paul goes ON to confirm the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom.2:27).

AND, Paul requires the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation to obey ALL Torah (1Cor.7:19).

AND, Paul requires that the Corinthians obey Paul's Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).  Remember?  Paul CONDONED a sacrifice to prove he "walked orderly according to the law" (Ac.21).  So IMITATE that model, as Paul requires (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

"you didnt, i didnt,"

Says who?  Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) and says it's easy (Mt.11:30).  So you've not proven we can't (or don't) walk in obedience to presently observable Torah portions.

 

"that this is "dung", as compared to "The Righteousness of Christ.""

Of COURSE it's 'dung' without faith....that's why Paul requires TORAH (2Ti.3:16) AND faith (Gal.3:11).  BOTH.  TOGETHER.

After all, righteousness is something you DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

 

" but actually be able to assemble entire Epistles in a dot by dot linear way, so that the entire NT becomes one big connected Truth."

Agreed!  Torah is truth (Ps.119:142); Paul applies this to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16;1Cor.13:6).  So OBEY Torah, as required by Paul.

 

" trying to contradict  70% of the NT that Paul wrote about Justification by Faith  "

Paul never said "JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ONLY".....that's NOT Bible.

Paul requires justification by LAW (Rom.2:13) AND FAITH (Rom.5:1) AND GRACE (Rom.3:24) AND the Spirit (1Cor.6;11) AND the Name of Christ (1Cor.6:11) AND works (says James 2:24).

ALL.

TOGETHER.

We don't just pick-and-choose.

 

" As that is what heretics do, because they dont know any bible, and they think they do."

HERESY includes the false teaching of false prophets (2Pe.2:1) who OPPOSE Torah (Dt.13:1-5).

That's why we do NOT oppose Torah.  We REQUIRE all Torah, just like Jesus (Mt.5:19).

You DO believe Mt.5:19...right?

 

""faith is by grace"< but the fruit of faith is WORKS."

FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).  Jesus was not joking.

FAITH is of Torah (Dt.32:20).

Faith is of Torah (Ps.119:30,86,138).

Those who receive GRACE are the HUMBLE (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).   HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

So yes!  The fruit of faith is WORKS.....what kind of works?   TORAH-OBEDIENT WORKS (2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Mt.5:19).

 

"And why?   Because you will "know them ..THE BORN AGAIN.....BY, WHAT?.....BY THEIR WORKS, BY THEIR FRUIT"."

True.  And Jesus goes on to say that religious people who OPPOSE Torah will be cast away (Mt.7:21-23).

That's another good reason to obey Torah...thanks!

 

"Your one  verse, that you yanked out of context...... i"

To the contrary....Torah applies to us from Exodus all the way to Revelation.

You DO believe Jesus' words right?  Matthew 5:19

 

blessings...

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[Alive]

The main theme of the bible from Genesis to Revelation is the relationship of righteousness from God’s perspective toward His creation—man.

He requires it.

He went through great effort to prove to man that he has no righteousness of his own and provided the Law as a means to lead man to that realization.

THe law was an instrument that shed light on man’s lack of righteousness and inability to reach that perfect and complete sinlessness required by God.

God’s remedy was a substitution. Christ fulfilled the law perfectly and more. He was sinless. The Lamb pure without spot or blemish.

He became the ‘forever sacrifice’. Once for all—so that there is no need for a priest to continually offer sacrifices for the people. One perfect eternal sacrifice that perfectly satisfies God’s need/desire for righteousness.

When we are placed ‘in Christ’ by the Father by the gift of faith that Righteousness becomes ours.

“We are the righteousness of God ‘In Christ”.

When God looks at us, He sees Christ.

This is a once for all done deal and much more.

Christ’s history became our history. We were ‘In Him’ on the cross, when He rose and when He ascended.

Just as Christ died….we died, we resurrected and we ascended. Salvation is essentially 'relocation'. He took us from the first Adam and moved us to the Second Adam--Christ. All that Christ is becomes effectually ours from the Father's perspective. How can this be improved?

God moved on from the economy of the principle of law to a NEW principle of Life.

A substitution of Christ’s righteousness for our filthy rags.

A gift of righteousness that can’t be added to or improved. It can’t be augmented. Any attempt to do so is an insult to the Father’s gift.

All of these things are very clearly spelled out by Paul and much more. Read his letters with these things in mind while keeping in mind the Torah and its inadequacy.

 

The word ‘end’ in this verse can be properly understood as ‘goal’.

 

Rom. 10:3 For not knowing about ^aGod’s righteousness and ^bseeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. ⁴ For ^aChrist is the ¹end of the law for righteousness to ^beveryone who believes.

 

 

[BibleGuy]

27 minutes ago, Alive said:

The main theme of the bible from Genesis to Revelation is the relationship of righteousness from God’s perspective toward His creation—man.

He requires it.

He went through great effort to prove to man that he has no righteousness of his own and provided the Law as a means to lead man to that realization.

THe law was an instrument that shed light on man’s lack of righteousness and inability to reach that perfect and complete sinlessness required by God.

God’s remedy was a substitution. Christ fulfilled the law perfectly and more. He was sinless. The Lamb pure without spot or blemish.

He became the ‘forever sacrifice’. Once for all—so that there is no need for a priest to continually offer sacrifices for the people. One perfect eternal sacrifice that perfectly satisfies God’s need/desire for righteousness.

When we are placed ‘in Christ’ by the Father by the gift of faith that Righteousness becomes ours.

“We are the righteousness of God ‘In Christ”.

When God looks at us, He sees Christ.

This is a once for all done deal and much more.

Christ’s history became our history. We were ‘In Him’ on the cross, when He rose and when He ascended.

Just as Christ died….we died, we resurrected and we ascended. Salvation is essentially 'relocation'. He took us from the first Adam and moved us to the Second Adam--Christ. All that Christ is becomes effectually ours from the Father's perspective. How can this be improved?

God moved on from the economy of the principle of law to a NEW principle of Life.

A substitution of Christ’s righteousness for our filthy rags.

A gift of righteousness that can’t be added to or improved. It can’t be augmented. Any attempt to do so is an insult to the Father’s gift.

All of these things are very clearly spelled out by Paul and much more. Read his letters with these things in mind while keeping in mind the Torah and its inadequacy.

 

The word ‘end’ in this verse can be properly understood as ‘goal’.

 

Rom. 10:3 For not knowing about ^aGod’s righteousness and ^bseeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. ⁴ For ^aChrist is the ¹end of the law for righteousness to ^beveryone who believes.

 

 

"He went through great effort to prove to man that he has no righteousness of his own"

If that were true, then we would not be commanded to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS....

But we ARE commanded to DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

We DO righteousness in obedience to Torah (2Ti.3:16).

We DO righteousness as an expression of our love (Dt.6).  Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to us (Mt.22:37).

 

"THe law was an instrument that shed light on man’s lack of righteousness and inability to reach that perfect and complete sinlessness required by God.

God’s remedy was a substitution. Christ fulfilled the law perfectly and more. He was sinless. The Lamb pure without spot or blemish.

He became the ‘forever sacrifice’. Once for all"

Very true!

 

"so that there is no need for a priest to continually offer sacrifices for the people. "

Very false!  Jesus comes to RESTORE sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac.21) to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21), thus confirming that Paul condones sacrifices when properly performed; and Paul requires that WE likewise condone sacrifices (given 1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul says the SHADOW CONTINUES (PRESENT tense, Col.2:17).  The shadow is not terminated or canceled or abolished or replaced.

THOUSANDS of Christians were zealous for ALL TORAH (thus including sacrifices, Ac.21:20).

Some Christians are even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7

Jesus REQUIRES sacrifices for people of all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7).

Jesus commands sacrifices (Mt. 5:24).

Jesus requires all sacrifices (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

The prophets PROMISE us that sacrifices will return (Mal.3:4;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

 

So don't worry.....we Israelites WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt.30:1-8).  Moses was not lying.  And that includes sacrifices.

 

" “We are the righteousness of God ‘In Christ”.

When God looks at us, He sees Christ.

This is a once for all done deal and much more.

Christ’s history became our history. We were ‘In Him’ on the cross, when He rose and when He ascended.

Just as Christ died….we died, we resurrected and we ascended. Salvation is essentially 'relocation'. He took us from the first Adam and moved us to the Second Adam--Christ. All that Christ is becomes effectually ours from the Father's perspective. How can this be improved? "

 

You're right!  You CAN'T improve upon the once-for-all sacrifice which alone takes our sins away.

BUT!

That's no excuse to ignore the PRO-SACRIFICE Biblical data (Mal.3:4;Ac.21;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;Ac.6:7;Mk.11:17;Is.56:7;Mt.5:24;Mt.5:19;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

So it's BOTH.

JESUS' blood alone takes away our sins.

AND!

Jesus comes to RESTORE those very sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"God moved on from the economy of the principle of law to a NEW principle of Life."

PROFOUNDLY false.  The SAME TORAH ("תּוֹרָה", Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant.

LAW and LIFE go TOGETHER (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;Dt.30:15-19;32:47;Jn.6:63+Mt.5:19;Jn.1:14+Jn.14:6).

The Spirit of life leads us to obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27;Rom.8:7+Rom.8:13).

 

"A gift of righteousness that can’t be added to or improved. It can’t be augmented. Any attempt to do so is an insult to the Father’s gift."

We don't obey to IMPROVE the gift of righteousness.....we obey to properly MANIFEST that righteousness we have received.

Thus, Torah must REBUKE you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah must CORRECT you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah must TRAIN you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah must TEACH you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah-upholding righteousness must be exhibited GREATER than that of the corrupted Pharisees, lest you not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah and righteousness go TOGETHER (Ps.119:3).  Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

 

"All of these things are very clearly spelled out by Paul and much more. "

True!

Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  DO GOOD (Gal.6:10) entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  Seek and desire the SPIRITUAL thus entails OBEYING TORAH (1Cor.14:1).

Torah is of faith (Mt.23:23).  So FAITH is a Torah-obedient fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah is our joy (Ps.119:162).  So Torah-obedient JOY is a fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Love for Torah brings peace (Ps.119:165).  So Torah-obedient peace is a fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  So Torah-obedient goodness is a fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Paul says we are justified by Torah (Rom.2:13), and Paul even affirms the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom.2:27).

Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the word of faith Paul preaches in Christ (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul says that the New Covenant consists of Torah being obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11:1) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33).

Paul says that even believing GENTILES are not excluded from the covenants (Eph.2:12) which are given as Torah (e.g., Jer.31:33).

Paul says that even believing GENTILES are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12); Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), meaning OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

And on and on and on and on......

 

So thanks for bringing up Paul!

These are encouraging words....

 

"while keeping in mind the Torah and its inadequacy."

True.  Torah without faith is TOTALLY INADEQUATE.

So be justified by Torah (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2;24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"The word ‘end’ in this verse can be properly understood as ‘goal’."

True!  The goal of Torah is CHRIST (given Dt.18;15;Col.2:17;Jn.1:14).

And Christ points us straight back to the law! (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Paul confirms the perpetuity of Torah, going on in Romans 10 to apply Dt.30:14 (TORAH!) to YOU in Rom.10:8, showing that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the very substance of the faith that Paul preaches.

 

blessings...

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by BibleGuy
1Jn.3:10 reference added

[Blood Bought 1953]

16 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

"He went through great effort to prove to man that he has no righteousness of his own"

If that were true, then we would not be commanded to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS....

But we ARE commanded to DO righteousness (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

We DO righteousness in obedience to Torah (2Ti.3:16).

We DO righteousness as an expression of our love (Dt.6).  Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to us (Mt.22:37).

 

"THe law was an instrument that shed light on man’s lack of righteousness and inability to reach that perfect and complete sinlessness required by God.

God’s remedy was a substitution. Christ fulfilled the law perfectly and more. He was sinless. The Lamb pure without spot or blemish.

He became the ‘forever sacrifice’. Once for all"

Very true!

 

"so that there is no need for a priest to continually offer sacrifices for the people. "

Very false!  Jesus comes to RESTORE sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

Paul CONDONED sacrifices (Ac.21) to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21), thus confirming that Paul condones sacrifices when properly performed; and Paul requires that WE likewise condone sacrifices (given 1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul says the SHADOW CONTINUES (PRESENT tense, Col.2:17).  The shadow is not terminated or canceled or abolished or replaced.

THOUSANDS of Christians were zealous for ALL TORAH (thus including sacrifices, Ac.21:20).

Some Christians are even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7

Jesus REQUIRES sacrifices for people of all nations (Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7).

Jesus commands sacrifices (Mt. 5:24).

Jesus requires all sacrifices (Mt.5:19) for all disciples of all nations (given Mt.28:19-20).

The prophets PROMISE us that sacrifices will return (Mal.3:4;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

 

So don't worry.....we Israelites WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt.30:1-8).  Moses was not lying.  And that includes sacrifices.

 

" “We are the righteousness of God ‘In Christ”.

When God looks at us, He sees Christ.

This is a once for all done deal and much more.

Christ’s history became our history. We were ‘In Him’ on the cross, when He rose and when He ascended.

Just as Christ died….we died, we resurrected and we ascended. Salvation is essentially 'relocation'. He took us from the first Adam and moved us to the Second Adam--Christ. All that Christ is becomes effectually ours from the Father's perspective. How can this be improved? "

 

You're right!  You CAN'T improve upon the once-for-all sacrifice which alone takes our sins away.

BUT!

That's no excuse to ignore the PRO-SACRIFICE Biblical data (Mal.3:4;Ac.21;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;Ac.6:7;Mk.11:17;Is.56:7;Mt.5:24;Mt.5:19;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

So it's BOTH.

JESUS' blood alone takes away our sins.

AND!

Jesus comes to RESTORE those very sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4).

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"God moved on from the economy of the principle of law to a NEW principle of Life."

PROFOUNDLY false.  The SAME TORAH ("תּוֹרָה", Jer.31:33) passes into the NEW Covenant.

LAW and LIFE go TOGETHER (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;Dt.30:15-19;32:47;Jn.6:63+Mt.5:19;Jn.1:14+Jn.14:6).

The Spirit of life leads us to obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27;Rom.8:7+Rom.8:13).

 

"A gift of righteousness that can’t be added to or improved. It can’t be augmented. Any attempt to do so is an insult to the Father’s gift."

We don't obey to IMPROVE the gift of righteousness.....we obey to properly MANIFEST that righteousness we have received.

Thus, Torah must REBUKE you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah must CORRECT you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah must TRAIN you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah must TEACH you in righteousness (2Ti.3:16).

Torah-upholding righteousness must be exhibited GREATER than that of the corrupted Pharisees, lest you not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah and righteousness go TOGETHER (Ps.119:3).  Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).

 

"All of these things are very clearly spelled out by Paul and much more. "

True!

Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  DO GOOD (Gal.6:10) entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS thus entails OBEYING TORAH.

Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  Seek and desire the SPIRITUAL thus entails OBEYING TORAH (1Cor.14:1).

Torah is of faith (Mt.23:23).  So FAITH is a Torah-obedient fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah is our joy (Ps.119:162).  So Torah-obedient JOY is a fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Love for Torah brings peace (Ps.119:165).  So Torah-obedient peace is a fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  So Torah-obedient goodness is a fruit we should bear (Gal.5:22-23).

Paul says we are justified by Torah (Rom.2:13), and Paul even affirms the legitimacy of Torah-obedient Gentiles (Rom.2:27).

Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the word of faith Paul preaches in Christ (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

Paul says that the New Covenant consists of Torah being obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11:1) which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33).

Paul says that even believing GENTILES are not excluded from the covenants (Eph.2:12) which are given as Torah (e.g., Jer.31:33).

Paul says that even believing GENTILES are not excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12); Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

Paul says STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34), meaning OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

And on and on and on and on......

 

So thanks for bringing up Paul!

These are encouraging words....

 

"while keeping in mind the Torah and its inadequacy."

True.  Torah without faith is TOTALLY INADEQUATE.

So be justified by Torah (Rom.2:13) and faith (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Not law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (Jas.2;24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"The word ‘end’ in this verse can be properly understood as ‘goal’."

True!  The goal of Torah is CHRIST (given Dt.18;15;Col.2:17;Jn.1:14).

And Christ points us straight back to the law! (Mt.4:4;5:19-20,48;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Paul confirms the perpetuity of Torah, going on in Romans 10 to apply Dt.30:14 (TORAH!) to YOU in Rom.10:8, showing that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the very substance of the faith that Paul preaches.

 

blessings...

 

 

Am I the only one who quit reading these long-winded worthless posts a long time ago?

[BibleGuy]

30 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Am I the only one who quit reading these long-winded worthless posts a long time ago?

Why is it worthless?

The Kingdom of Heaven is of GREAT VALUE (Mt.13:46)

And you enter that Kingdom IF you obey Torah better than the Pharisees (Mt.5:20).

Agreed?

[Prycejosh1987]

Joseph prince is a hyper grace preacher. He turns to grace for almost everything. 

To have grace implemented we need to sacrifice. Grace is a well lit room with everything in it, that has a door, and only going through that door will lead a person into the room. Jesus is the door, and sacrifice and carrying the cross of following Jesus is the way to get to that door.