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Proverbs 31

Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

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I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

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14 minutes ago, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

I would petition pre-tribbers to read Luke 17 where Jesus talks about the "days of the son of man" and how they,  plural,  are likened unto the days of Noah.   Briefly out says that on the day that Jesus is revealed,  HALF are taken.   But when he comes with the kingdom,  ALL on earth will suffer his wrath.   These are paralleled in Matt 24 by the parousia/ coming and erchomai/ coming of Jesus.   

In 2 exact parallels,  Jesus likened the parousia/ rapture to lightening that shines from east to west and "One taken & One left".   He even gives us a precursory parallel to the days before either of the days of Jesus have taken place to be when many shall proclaim,  LO/see HERE,  or LO/there to be DURING the days of great tribulation.   

  
Mat 24:22-27 KJV    And except those days [of great tribulation]  should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, LO, HERE is Christ, or THERE; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Verse list:    
Luk 17:22-25 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS of the SON of MAN, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, SEE HERE; or, SEE THERE: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

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37 minutes ago, Proverbs 31 said:

His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

I used to be pre-trib too then transitioned to pre-wrath based on how Matthew 24 aligned with the seals.  Now, I think that post-trib is more likely.  The main thing is, as you mentioned, is to be ready come what may.

I think the reason that Jesus doesn't mention the plagues (trumpets / bowls) is that they are not signs for believers to look for.  They are judgments of those who take the mark and worship the image.  If we are here for the plagues, we will be kept from their effects, like the children of Israel were in Egypt, because we have the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts of our heart.

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I have decided that I am pre-heaven.. all the others failed me due to difficulties that all the various ideas have.

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1 hour ago, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

I am pre Wrath as well. You can find my views on the post about John's 7 visions in revelation on this section of the forum. (little different than yours) I am a premillennialist, dispensationalist, and a pre Wrather. I used to be pre trib, because that is all I knew. In 2007 the LORD had me begin studying his word, and His word alone to discover the Truth, No teachings of man to interfere with the teaching of the Holy Ghost.

Welcome to the site. 

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I am pre wrath view too. You know it only in Pentecostal and a lot of evangelical churchs that hold to pre trib. It's so plain in the word that we go through the trib. Corrie ten boom. Even called the pre trib false teaching. I think many will be offended when it hits the fan and the great trib begins. The antichrist will look good to them.

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10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:
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I would petition pre-tribbers to read Luke 17 where Jesus talks about the "days of the son of man" and how they,  plural,  are likened unto the days of Noah. 

I believe that you are completely missing the point. Yes, the days of the son of man are plural. One of the days of the son of man will be like the days of Noah, where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Another day of the son of man is like the days of Lot, where destruction comes the day Lot leaves Sodom.

Conclusion. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, which is before the seals are opened. The ark doors are shut 7 days before the flood. We see then that God opens the eyes of the Jews when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth will go through the tribulation, as they are the seed of the woman in Rev 12. They will be raptured pre wrath as we can see in Rev 6 and Matt 24. All eyes will see this coming of the Lord. No secret here. The woman, Israel goes through the wrath of God in a place of protection.(Those that flee as instructed, one third)
 

Quote

 

 Briefly out says that on the day that Jesus is revealed,  HALF are taken.   But when he comes with the kingdom,  ALL on earth will suffer his wrath.   These are paralleled in Matt 24 by the parousia/ coming and erchomai/ coming of Jesus.   

In 2 exact parallels,  Jesus likened the parousia/ rapture to lightening that shines from east to west and "One taken & One left".   He even gives us a precursory parallel to the days before either of the days of Jesus have taken place to be when many shall proclaim,  LO/see HERE,  or LO/there to be DURING the days of great tribulation.   

 

Again, the Church will be in heaven pre trib. Those that go through the tribulation and are raptured prewrath are the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. This can proven by the 144,000 first fruits which is a guarantee of a harvest of the 12 tribes. 
 

Quote

 

Mat 24:22-27 KJV    And except those days [of great tribulation]  should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, LO, HERE is Christ, or THERE; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Verse list:    
Luk 17:22-25 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS of the SON of MAN, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, SEE HERE; or, SEE THERE: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

 

There will be a secret rapture of the Church when He comes before the tribulation. The world will not see Him. Then there will be a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth as God keeps his promise to His people and regrafts them onto the olive tree. We see the gathering in Matt 24 and Rev 14. Only the woman, the nation of Israel go through the wrath of God. The ones that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up toward the end of the week, will go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

There is a difference between the seals - the tribulation, and the trumpets (and vials) - the wrath of God.

 

Edited by The Light

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Interesting viewpoint, ...may I ask a question, ...please understand, ...I'm NOT attacking you, ...I'll say it again to reiterate my point, ...I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU, ...okay, ...got it?

Did you bruise, beat up, maim "your" bride before you married her?

I don' t believe you did, ...I think you loved her, cherished her, went out of your way to please her,

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church (His Bride), and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

Here's the question, why would you think, since Jesus gave us this admonition to love our brides, ...why would He bruise, beat up, maim His Bride before He marries her?

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28 minutes ago, The Light said:

 

I think you grasp what Jesus is saying about the [2 different]  days of the Son of man, being likened unto the [2 important parts of the] days of Noah.   He equates the [2 days of the] rapture and his advent/ coming of the kingdom with the DAY that Noah entered ark and the DAY that the flood came.   Matthew and Luke equivocates the parousia/ coming with the day that Jesus is revealed;  and the erchomai/ coming with the arrival of the kingdom of god.   And in both gospels,  they both equate the parousia and his revealing with lightning that is visible from one end of the spectrum to the other [east to west].  And your advocation of a secret rapture is exactly what Jesus is warning against believing someone who tries to tell you differently.  In Luke 17 Jesus said that the days that are coming  [in which people try to convince that Jesus has secretly come]  would be BEFORE any of the days of the son of man have taken place. 

 But I understand why you believe that.   Jesus said that the reaction of the world to the period of time [between the rapture and the kingdom,] will be oblivious behavior to the impending destruction, that will come to everyone.   He said that the world will be acting like it didn't happen.   This is reiterated in the words of Peter. 

2Pe 3:4 KJV And saying, Where is the promise of his coming(parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

 

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39 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Interesting viewpoint, ...may I ask a question, ...please understand, ...I'm NOT attacking you, ...I'll say it again to reiterate my point, ...I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU, ...okay, ...got it?

Did you bruise, beat up, maim "your" bride before you married her?

I don' t believe you did, ...I think you loved her, cherished her, went out of your way to please her,

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church (His Bride), and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

Here's the question, why would you think, since Jesus gave us this admonition to love our brides, ...why would He bruise, beat up, maim His Bride before He marries her?

Let me give you 2 passages that demonstrates why your belief would thwart the "righteous judgment of God", and our call to experience Hupomone.  The righteous judgment of God is to ensure that only those that are worthy of the kingdom are taken in the rapture.   Do you think that everyone who currently calls themself a Christian is truly a Christian? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

  
Rom 2:2-11 KJV    But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by 'patient continuance' (HUPOMONE, G5281) in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.


2Th 1:4-10 KJV    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience (HUPOMONE, G5281) and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF  GOD, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

G5281, Original: ὑπομονή

Transliteration: hupomonē

Phonetic: hoop-om-on-ay'

Thayer Definition:

  1. steadfastness, constancy, endurance
    1. in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the GREATEST TRIALS AND SUFFERINGS
Edited by Da Puppers

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