Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

It is therefore human reasoning. John shows us very clearly that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent. When Satan's wrath is at its peak (the number of murders per day at its highest), then God will send the vials of His wrath to shorten those days. 

Well, this is more myth on your part. Satan's wrath and mankind's wrath against the church and the Jews occur during the tribulation. We see this at the 5th seal when the souls under the altar cry out for vengeance, and are told to wait a little longer. So God's wrath doesn't begin until the trumpets, and ends with the vials. Satan is done at the end of the seals. 

But where are the days of GT among the trumpets and bowls? We can tell because the beheaded only BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15, so the days of GT BEGIN between the trumpets and the bowls. God will use the bowl judgments to shorten the days of GT.

There are no days of GT among the trumpets and bowls. They are God's wrath. Period. Satan's wrath is all natural stuff....wars, famine, pestilence, murders, etc. God's wrath is all supernatural. He alone will be glorified in that day.

Teh trumpets will cover the first 3.5 years, and added to that will be much of the second half of the week. But Jesus will have wrath when HE comes to Armageddon, so it is STILL God's wrath for the entire week and then after the week to His coming. 

Where in scripture does it show that the trumpets last 3.5 years? This is more conjecture on your part.

Look, when there is ONE VERSE (or two) in the old testament that some might imagine tells us some time of wrath will be one year, but we have MANY MANY verses in Revelation showing us the entire week in our future is His wrath, it is wisdom to go with the most resent Revelation. 

Since much of Revelation quotes the Old Testament......it would be in your favor to understand the OT. 

Where are these many, many verses in Rev that shows , specifically, that the entire week is His Wrath?

If you had read my post on Revelation, A Fresh Look, I pointed out how Rev 12-15:5 is an explanation of Rev 6-through 11. Same scenario, with Rev 12-15:5 explaining the earlier vision. 

Sorry, my friend, but if you miss the foundation, all the building will be off.  The foundation is chapters 4 & 5 that show us Jesus got the book and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.  Seals 1 - 5 are church age. Seal five is church age martyrs. You are jumping way way ahead of the Author.  What I wrote is not myth. Don't take my word for it: go read the first verses of chapter 15: the beheaded are JUST BEGINNING to show up in heaven. In other words, the days of GT are JUST STARTING in chapter 15! Where are the vials? In chapter 16! This is not myth, my friend, it is just reading and understanding the text. 

God's wrath doesn't begin until the trumpets, and ends with the vials.  No, it does not end with the vials, because JEsus STILL has wrath when He descends. Perhaps the FAther's wrath is appeased with the vials.  Congratulations on knowing every trumpet will come with His wrath. 

Satan is done at the end of the seals.   How can anyone be "dead on" in one point and be dead off in another?  Where do you think the Beast is getting his power and authority in chapter 15 where the beheaded are beginning to show up in heaven? OF COURSE from Satan. Satan is not "done" until He is locked in the pit in chapter 20. That is after the week has finished and after Jesus has come.

There are no days of GT among the trumpets and bowls. They are God's wrath. Period.  This is myth on your side here. Do you just not understand it is the IMAGE the Beast and FP will make and the mark they demand people receive that will CAUSE the days of GT?  You will find this in chapter 13. It is what puts people under GREAT PRESSURE: take the mark and eat, and drink, or refuse the mark and lose the head. It is going to be very hard days to live through.  Now, did you notice where God warns people NOT to take the mark? Is it in chapter 6 somewhere? Surely NOT! It is in chapter 14! This proves beyond any shadow of doubt that the days of GT have not started yet. When the beheaded begin to show up in the next chapter, we now have TWO WITNESSES that the days of GT are in chapter 15, NOT BEFORE. You would have people accepting the mark before Gdo warns them.  My friend, God is not going to be late!  It appears you have swallowed the pretrib doctrine completely. You should have recognized it as error right off. 

Satan's wrath is all natural stuff....wars, famine, pestilence, murders, etc.  John TELLS US how the beast is going to cause these days of GT: it will be forcing people to worship an image and taking a mark - after God has warned that taking this mark will doom them to eternity in fire and brimstone.  So again you nailed it: MURDERs: in this case murder by beheading. 

Where in scripture does it show that the trumpets last 3.5 years?  Sorry, my friend, but if you had any understanding of John's chronology, you would know this. However, you don't even know where the 70th week is outlined, so how can you know where the trumpet judgments start and end. I will give you an hint: the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week. Notice that that is the last trumpet and it is marking the middle - so all the previous trumpets are before the midpoint. 

Where are these many, many verses in Rev that shows , specifically, that the entire week is His Wrath?  Again, if you knew where the week was, this would be so easy to answer.  Please, allow me to illustrate: the week is marked by 7's: the week begins at the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial.  We see that God's wrath (the Father's wrath) begins at the 6th seal. Therefore all the trumpet judgments come with His wrath. Then we know the vials are FILLED with His wrath, so we know His wrath continues on from the trumpets to the vials. We also know that Jesus will have wrath at Armageddon, and Jesus is very much a part of God.  So we have wrath from chapter 6 all the way to chapter 19: the entire 70th week PLUS. 

I pointed out how Rev 12-15:5 is an explanation of Rev 6-through 11.   You may well have pointed out your THEORY about this, but I don't buy your theory: it does not fit the text.  No, not at ALL. The truth is, you have very little understanding of John's Chronology, if any at all.

[iamlamad]

14 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

And so where does Jesus talk about,  or mention this final war anywhere in the gospels?

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

I don't think you will find Armageddon in the gospels. But then, we don't need to because we have the Old Testament prophets and we have Revelation. 

[Diaste]

On 11/24/2019 at 6:35 PM, The Light said:

There will be a secret rapture of the Church when He comes before the tribulation. The world will not see Him.

And this is not implied anywhere in scripture. It is explicitly stated that 'every eye' will see him when he returns.

[Diaste]

On 11/24/2019 at 8:09 PM, JustPassingThru said:

Friend, I'm not the least bit interested in discussing pre-wrath with you...,

My question is, ...why do "you" think Jesus would beat up His Bride before the marriage, ...when you have done the exact opposite and loved you bride before your marriage? 

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

It's not a question about the Rapture of the Church...

It's a question about the "character" of Jesus...

False premise here. You equate unequal things to get to this point. It's clear from scripture persecution is at the hands of the dragon, not the Lord; "

But woe to the earth and the sea;

with great fury the devil has come down to you,

knowing he has only a short time.”

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."(Only the true Bride does this)

It's sad you use the Lord in this way. First in loaded rhetorical device, then as an instrument to shame others. 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, OneLight said:

I completely agree, yet many will continue to debate the issue out of pride with big type, all caps, colored verses, you name it, to push their pet theology.

Not sure anyone of us can see the heart of man. I find such disparaging commentary more desperate than investigative. 

Perhaps shaming tactics should be left to atheists.

 

[The Light]

20 hours ago, OneLight said:

I completely agree, yet many will continue to debate the issue out of pride with big type, all caps, colored verses, you name it, to push their pet theology.

Some will continue to debate, as there are issues that most don't agree on. Over time through this debate their views can gradually change because they took the time to read what others have to say. I see it all the time - They say, I used to be pre trib etc etc, but now etc etc. So, some will debate and others will cut and run when they have no scriptural answers. When they are challenged, they act like they know it all, but really they have no answers. Iron sharpens iron, but what happens to hay.

 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Some will continue to debate, as there are issues that most don't agree on. Over time through this debate their views can gradually change because they took the time to read what others have to say. I see it all the time - They say, I used to be pre trib etc etc, but now etc etc. So, some will debate and others will cut and run when they have no scriptural answers. When they are challenged, they act like they know it all, but really they have no answers. Iron sharpens iron, but what happens to hay.

I am all for a discussion as they are designed to provide another view a person may not of thought of before.  Debates are designed to stand firm in a theory and persuade the readers their opponent is wrong and they are right.  I notice a huge difference between a discussion and a debate.  It was through a discussion that made me go back and search the scripture to see if what I was being shown was the truth or not. 

The reasons why those who "cut and run" do so may very.  Some may not like the attitude of those participating.  Some will just see what is being said as so far out in left field they can't make any sense of anything being presented.  These two are probably tied for the number one reason people ignore the topic.  Some have heard it so many time they can probably come pretty close to telling you blow by blow how this will go down.  Very few will not care enough about the subject enough to want to even consider what is being said.

[Dennis1209]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:12 AM, dhchristian said:

I am pre Wrath as well. You can find my views on the post about John's 7 visions in revelation on this section of the forum. (little different than yours) I am a premillennialist, dispensationalist, and a pre Wrather. I used to be pre trib, because that is all I knew. In 2007 the LORD had me begin studying his word, and His word alone to discover the Truth, No teachings of man to interfere with the teaching of the Holy Ghost.

Welcome to the site. 

I'll put my head on the chopping block.

I believe the tribulation is a seven year period, it officially starts when the Man of Sin officially confirms a covenant with Israel and the many. The whole tribulation is the wrath of God and can be subdivided into; the wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and the greater wrath of God [the last 3-1/2 years being the greater wrath of God]. We are not appointed to the wrath of God, which is the entire seven year tribulation. On earth, we are indeed appointed to tribulation, but not "the" tribulation IMO. John 16:33 (KJV) These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

The purpose of the tribulation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ. To bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth; to bring Israel back and believe on the One whom they pierced; to punish and bring an end to the gentile world kingdom.

In addition; if one believes in the 'doctrine of imminency', that Christ could return at any moment, even in Paul's lifetime by the inclusion of the pronoun "we" with the Rapture and Resurrection. What does one do with this widely accepted doctrine?

Of course I could use a lot of cyber ink and scripture supporting my pretribulation view, but that's already been done by many with this view and normally doesn't change ones convictions. As with many other views; such as the 'gap theory', I've prayed, kept an open mind and heavily studied both [or more] sides of the debate, and reached my own conclusions and belief's. I've learned not to be dogmatic in my hermeneutic and prophetic views.

The traditional Jewish wedding, customs, traditions and expectations in Jesus' day are precisely outlined in our Bibles, and elsewhere in historical autographs such as Flavis Josephus. Everything from the betrothal through the bride groom going unexpectedly to fetch his bride unannounced. This tradition and process exactly mirrors the Rapture and Resurrection by the bride groom [Jesus] for His bride [the church]. Nowhere in this shadow, type and example does the bride get a black eye, abused, beat up or killed. 

It appears to me this Jewish marriage process reflects the order and sequence of the Lords return for His bride. There is zero spousal abuse mentioned in the traditional Jewish wedding customs. 

[JustPassingThru]

@Dennis1209

Exactly brother!!!

You just left out one thing Jesus told us about those waiting for His return for His Church...

But and if that servant say in his heart, My Lord delayeth His coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens,   Luke 12;45

Now there are two heads on the chopping block...

Lord bless

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Even if the 2nd part, the 2nd day of the son of man,  is very weak,  unverified correlation between the gospels account and the revelation of John,  you agree then that the first day of the son of man refers to the rapture.   So lets see where Jesus places this first day.  
Luk 17:22-24 KJV    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Here Jesus said that before any of those days take place (before the first day,  when the rapture takes place), Jesus used the phrase that men will be saying in those days:  See here, or See there.   As I have already pointed this is the exact equivalent to the same phrase,  Lo here, or Lo there.   He said,  don't follow them because my coming,  on that day,  the day of the rapture,  will be like lightning n that shines from east to west. 

Both Matthew and Mark have this same phrase in their accounts of the Olivet Discourse. 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:23-27 KJV    Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mar 13:21-24 KJV    And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark concludes this segment of the discourse by saying,  "in those days".  He is connecting it to the days of false prophets and Christs saying,  "Lo,  here, Lo there".  He then says that the celestial signs will also take place in THOSE days of "LO".  And Matthew follows as well with the celestial signs.  So we know that they are in complete agreement.   But Matthew brings us back to the visible event of the rapture, lightning shining from east to west.   So,  we have Matthew,  Mark and Luke all saying that those days of LO will precede the rapture... before any day of the son of man has taken place.   And thus,  the rapture is during those days,  according to Mark and Luke.   Your theory of when the rapture takes place,  relative to the great tribulation,  just doesn't hold water. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

He said,  don't follow them because my coming,  on that day,  the day of the rapture,  will be like lightning n that shines from east to west.  

Why would would anyone write such a thing?  Can you find "like lightning that shines from east to west" or an equivalent phrase in 1 thes. 4 or 5, a passage on the rapture, or in 1 Cor. 15: another passage on the rapture?  I have never found it. 

What you are missing: there remains TWO MORE comings of the Lord, not just one. In the NEXT coming, which would be His SECOND coming, He comes only to the clouds. He will not be seen as lightning: He may not be seen AT ALL. There is no scripture saying He will be seen. OF COURSE those caught up will see Him, but the rest of the world may not. 

Next, He will come yet again (3rd coming)  as seen in Rev. 19 and THEN He will come as lightning flashes from east to west.   

Therefore we will never come to agree on this if you believe He is coming only once more. 

the 2nd day of the son of man,  I have never heard anyone ever say this before. What would this mean? The day after Armageddon?

The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.  What does Jesus mean here? They were seeing him EVERY day. But He knew He was going back to heaven and they would NOT see him then. 

And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. Here He has jumped to the end of the age. He is telling them His coming will be VERY visible, so don't be deceived by anyone saying He is here or He is there. If they have not seen Him come as lighting, HE IS NOT YET COME.

Here Jesus said that before any of those days take place (before the first day,  when the rapture takes place),  I don't think Jesus is telling us that the "first day" of "one of the days of the Son of Man" is referring the the rapture. I think you are guessing. Can you find a scripture that might tie these two things together? He ends up saying, "so shall also the Son of man be in his day," which will be His coming for Armageddon.  Every day thereafter will be one of His days. He is not leaving. 

 But Matthew brings us back to the visible event of the rapture, lightning shining from east to west.   When anyone starts out in error, they will just get farther and farther from the truth. At the rapture He will be hidden in a cloud! You are forcing two comings into one. It won't work. Therefore this statement of yours is bogus. 

 And thus,  the rapture is during those days,  according to Mark and Luke.   Your theory of when the rapture takes place,  relative to the great tribulation,  just doesn't hold water.   Rather, it is your argument that holds no water. Your starting assumptions were wrong.