Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[OneLight]

10 minutes ago, The Light said:

By comparing the coming of the Lord in Matt 24 to Rev 6 we can tell that a rapture happens at the 6th seal. Since we know that those that love God are not appointed to wrath we can safely conclude that a rapture occurs before any trumpets are blown by angels.

How do you compare Matthew 24 with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54?

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Your blinded by your "personal revelation from Jesus".  Now you have interchanged the apocalypse for the rapture. 

Luk 17:30 KJV Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed/apokalupto.

Do any of the following verses NOT apply to you and I as members   of the church? 

Rom 8:18-19 KJV    For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
2Th 1:7 KJV    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1Pe 1:7 KJV    That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:13 KJV    Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 4:13 KJV    But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

So how did Jesus describe the DAY that he is revealed? 

 
Luk 17:31-36 KJV    In THAT DAY , he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in THAT NIGHT there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I have explained this already.   Can everyone be destroyed before half are taken and half are left?   Apparently you think so.   Turning back to Matthew we see this same passage about ONE taken and ONE left. 

Verse list:    
Mat 24:37-41 KJV    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming/ parousia of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming/ parousia of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Here we have the 2nd & 3rd usages of parousia by Jesus/ Matthew in the O.D.  The first one, is the one that I showed takes place first [before any of the days of the son of man have taken place] when Jesus says that his coming,  his parousia,  will be like lightning.   If you believe that everyone can be destroyed before half are taken,  just keep on ignoring the scriptures.   I have presented 3 scriptures that agree, and you have presented none.  I'll take God's revelation over yours. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

This is easily understood: there are TWO TIMES at least where "one is taken and one is left." It will be true for the pretrib rapture and it will be true for the parable of the tares. 

This does not in any case tell us that half are taking. IF, and again I say IF we are talking about the parable of the tares and two are in a field, and IF one is on God's side and IF the other on the devil's side, THEN one will be taken and one left. What if BOTH in the field are sinners? Then BOTH would be taken. What is both in the field are righteous? Then both would be left behind. 

What you are missing: You cannot build correct doctrine on three verses! Especially when Revelation is a much more complete writing on the subject.  And for the rapture, ONLY PAUL talked about it, except John in chapter 14.  Paul shows us ONE coming, pretrib. REvelation shows us another coming POST trib. What am I saying? Your argument has holes. 

as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming/ parousia of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away

Notice the FOR: I made it big so you would not miss it. It is the KEY WORD in this verse. Why? Because it tells us WHY JEsus brought up Noah. He is pointing out the suddenness of their destruction. It is going to be just as sudden at Armageddon: they will wake up that day thinking it will be a day just like the day before, but JESUS will come and they will be dead. 

in the day when the Son of man is revealed  What day is that? It is His Revelation 19 coming. 

Rom 8:18-19  "Sons of God."  Did you know? A denomination started or at least a strong movement called "the Manifest Sons,"  because they read into this verse something God never met. There is not going to be some "super" Christians that take over the world for Jesus.  The truth is, when we are raptured we get back the glory that Adam lost. Yes, of course this verse applies to us.

2Th 1:7  Our "rest" will not be complete until judgment is completed. Yes, it applies to us. We come back WITH Himi. 

1Pe 1:7  Everyone's works will be tried by fire. If our works are only earthly, they will burn. This goes for Jew and Gentile alike. Of course it applies to the church. The fire will not be prejudice!  Do you know exactly WHEN this fire will come? If so, please enlighten us. 

1 Pet. 1:13 WHEN is Jesus revealed? It will be at His coming to Armageddon: the church will come WITH HIM so of course it applies to us. 

1 Pet. 4:13 When Jesus glory is revealed, at His Rev. 19 coming, WE COME WITH HIm. So of course this applies to the church. 

Luk 17:31-36  I think this verse is telling us that the parable of the tares will be carried out when Jesus comes - as in Rev. 19. 

I am sorry, but I just see verses with no real argument on your side. Remind me please, what are you trying to prove? I STILL see two comings: one FOR His saints and one more WiTH His saints.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

I believe the only real truth about the rapture can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - at the last trumpet.  All else is no more then man trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to come up with the closest picture possible.  If we were meant to know, God would of told us in the first place.  It's best to live each day for Christ and let the events unfold as they will.  Why gamble?

He DID tell us...through Paul. He tells us that the rapture must come before wrath - but JUST before - as if the rapture will trigger the DAY of His wrath. Then John shows us that is at the 6th seal. The rapture is therefore pinpointed: the church has been waiting at the 5th seal (Martyrs of the church age) for almost 2000 years.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Adding Parenthesis is adding to the text. Rearranging prophecy is just studying it. Old testament prophecies jump from 1st advent to second advent, to near fulfillment in the course of a paragraph, and takes Spiritual discernment and instruction to understand rightly. The same is True of Revelation.

So I strongly disagree with your last assessment. 

Disagree all you want. Does that make it OK?  Will God damn those that added punctuation? Will God damn those that added verse numbers and chapters? OF COURSE NOT: these things are NOT CHANGING the text. Rearranging does.

[dhchristian]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Disagree all you want. Does that make it OK?  Will God damn those that added punctuation? Will God damn those that added verse numbers and chapters? OF COURSE NOT: these things are NOT CHANGING the text. Rearranging does.

Did you ever study the Old testament prophecies that point to the messiah? The One's used by the apostles themselves to verify Jesus' testimony? If You did, you will see that they rearranged prophecy. Jesus Himself Quoting Isaiah 61 stops at a certain point, because that has a future fulfillment. Micah 5 speaks of Jesus being born in Bethlehem and then speaks of the second advent and the birth, and then proceeds to speak of near fulfillment of prophecy in chapter 6. There are literally hundreds of examples here. 

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (1 Peter 1:19-21)

[Last Daze]

16 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No similarity at all: Jesus CHOSE to go to the cross to redeem mankind.  

And did you not CHOOSE to follow Him?  Have you not counted the cost?  Since you dodged it the first time, I'll ask you again, "are you greater than your Master?"  I'll assume that you'll say "no" because you know that's the right answer.

• Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.   John 15:20

Tribulation and persecution is not something for the follower of Jesus to escape, it's something to be expected.  Don't let the pretrib lullaby sing you to sleep.  Persecution is coming.  Stay awake.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

And did you not CHOOSE to follow Him?  Have you not counted the cost?  Since you dodged it the first time, I'll ask you again, "are you greater than your Master?"  I'll assume that you'll say "no" because you know that's the right answer.

• Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.   John 15:20

Tribulation and persecution is not something for the follower of Jesus to escape, it's something to be expected.  Don't let the pretrib lullaby sing you to sleep.  Persecution is coming.  Stay awake.

Your argument is senseless. Read again:
"must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day."

The will of the Father was for Jesus to go to the cross and die for OUR sins. 

This was a ONE TIME thing: no one else has to, or could die for the sins of man - nor would it be necessary again: Jesus paid for the sins of man for ALL TIME. 

OF COURSE we get persecuted. Satan hated Jesus and He hates us. But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? NONE that I know of. 

Please, show me how this is related to our subject? We were talking about the timing of the rapture of the church and extended that to the character of God Himself. HIS plan has always been that He, God, is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. What does that mean? NO appointments means we don't have to SHOW UP! 

Isaiah 26 shows His plan for this time of His wrath on earth:

²⁰ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

What chamber and where? Of course in our new address in heaven, as per John 14.

If you want to stay behind and "tribulate"  - that is between you and God. But you will setting your OWN appointment: God is not setting it for you.  The rest of the church is going to take a vacation (7 years +) to heaven to wait out His wrath. 

Just so you know, the verses that are pertinent for believers left behind is the one in Daniel and the one in Revelation that tells us the Beast will OVERCOME the saints. Since you talk of preparation or expectation, this is what those left behind will face: they will be overcome. Their choice will be take the mark, or lose their head. 

[Last Daze]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your argument is senseless. Read again:
"must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day."

The will of the Father was for Jesus to go to the cross and die for OUR sins. 

This was a ONE TIME thing: no one else has to, or could die for the sins of man - nor would it be necessary again: Jesus paid for the sins of man for ALL TIME. 

OF COURSE we get persecuted. Satan hated Jesus and He hates us. But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? NONE that I know of. 

Please, show me how this is related to our subject? We were talking about the timing of the rapture of the church and extended that to the character of God Himself. HIS plan has always been that He, God, is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. What does that mean? NO appointments means we don't have to SHOW UP! 

Isaiah 26 shows His plan for this time of His wrath on earth:

²⁰ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

What chamber and where? Of course in our new address in heaven, as per John 14.

If you want to stay behind and "tribulate"  - that is between you and God. But you will setting your OWN appointment: God is not setting it for you.  The rest of the church is going to take a vacation (7 years +) to heaven to wait out His wrath. 

Just so you know, the verses that are pertinent for believers left behind is the one in Daniel and the one in Revelation that tells us the Beast will OVERCOME the saints. Since you talk of preparation or expectation, this is what those left behind will face: they will be overcome. Their choice will be take the mark, or lose their head. 

I'll just leave it at this.  What you do with it is up to you.

• Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”  Mark 13:35-37

[JoeCanada]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The following is my hermeneutic view pertaining to your questions. As I previously alluded to; I don't want to be dogmatic in my prophetic views, as time unfolds I could be mistaken in my interpretations. With that said:

(1) The Lord tells John to write about; the things that were, the things that are, and the things that will be [past-present-future], and John does exactly that. The 'church' is mentioned nineteen (19) times in the first three chapters; never again until Revelation chapter 21. Chapters one through three address the churches, historic timelines, etc. Suddenly, between chapters three and four, the church is gone. I believe John being called up to Heaven there is symbolic, a type and shadow of the Rapture / Resurrection of the body of Christ. I believe the twenty-four elders represent the translated church for a number of scriptural reasons. Starting in Chapter 4:, it's obvious the focus shifts to the Jew's and Israel, and the nations and forces against them.

(2) As I mentioned in a previous post; the book of Revelation is all about the unveiling of Jesus Christ; bringing the Jew's to their knees to believe and own up to them piercing and crucifying their Messiah, repenting and begging for His return. To deal with the heathen Gentiles / nations and unbelievers and make an end to the age of the Gentiles. To bring in the 'Kingdom of God' to Earth at the end of the seven year tribulation. Not withstanding Christ; the entire Bible is centered around God's peculiar people, the Hebrew / Jew's. The Jew's were chosen of God for His people, the word of God was penned by Jew's, the word of God was preserved through them, and Jesus was born a Jew. The book of Revelation plainly centers around the nation of Israel, the Jew's and what and how the nations and Antichrist is doing. 

(3) Yes, we agree on that, all those whom have believed on the Lord are saints. In addition to the 144,000 Jew's sealed by God and proclaiming the Gospel during the tribulation. I believe that immediately after the Rapture of the bride of Christ [the church], many are going to realize they were not truly saved. They will suddenly realize they are going to now enter the tribulation and sincerely repent and call on the name of the Lord and this time truly get saved. The 'age of Grace' is over when Christ calls His bride home. Born again believers after the Rapture and those converts in the tribulation will have to endure to the end to be saved. It appears to me that "most" Christians will have to die a martyrs death. I believe the prayers of these saints are the ones martyred for their belief during the persecution and tribulation of the Jew's and Christians. Those will have to endure to the end.

I see and understand your view of the Muslim persecution now going on. However; like I stated my view before, we are appointed to tribulation and persecution here on earth, as has always been. But this persecution right now on earth is selective, localized, not everywhere all at once, nor genocide in scope. In other words, not the whole body of Christ or all the Jew's at this time. On the other hand, during the tribulation, both Jew's and Christians "globally" and in mass will be tortured and mass murdered [genocide] during this period. Collectively, the body of Christ [His church] is not subject to the 'wrath' of God, that makes absolutely no sense to me to think otherwise. 

Well, for what it's worth, that's my long diatribe and understanding. Others mileage will greatly vary I'm sure.

Hi Dennis,

The 'church' is mentioned nineteen (19) times in the first three chapters; never again until Revelation chapter 21.

I disagree.

The Greek word for church is "ekklesia", and the word ekklesia sometimes refers to the church universal, "the church".

There are entire books in the New Testament where this word is absent.....Mark, Luke, John, Titus, 2 Tim, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude.

Are we to conclude these other books of the Bible aren't about the church simply because this word is absent? Obviously not. These books are about and for the church with or without the word.

Revelation does refer to Christians, (ie: the church) , in chapters 4-19. It uses the term "bond-servants" and "saints" to refer to those who have saving faith in Jesus. "Saints" is used 13 times and "bond-servants" is used 10 times. They are used before, during, and after chapters 4-19. There is one point in the scope of Revelation where these terms aren't found. That is during the trumpet and bowl judgments.......because the church, saints, bond-servants are not appointed to Wrath, which is during the trumpet and bowl judgments.

The church does not need anybody or any small group to 'represent" them.(24 elders) They are a stand alone group.

In addition to the 144,000 Jew's sealed by God and proclaiming the Gospel during the tribulation.

Scripture does not support this. I don't see the 144,000 Jews anywhere in Revelation proclaiming the Gospel. 

[Dennis1209]

14 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Please show me what you are seeing in chapter 4 that points to Israel?

Chapter four is basically an introduction and preparatory of things coming. From here on out there will be no mention of the church on earth. I believe the 24 elders represent the Rapture / Resurrection. Perhaps the 24 [12 + 12] also represent the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel? John was selected and called up to heaven, John a Jew and Israeli may represents Israel.

14 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Why then is the entire Book addressed to the churches.

As I mentioned, the first three chapters of Revelation mention the church 19 times. A better question; show me the 'church' on earth anywhere after chapter three.

14 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I disagree with the "tribulation saints" concept as understood by the pre-trib proponents.

Could you be more specific here? Do you think no one will come to accept Jesus as their Savior directly after the Rapture or in the tribulation? Or the disembodied saints asking how much longer before they are avenged, as being tribulation saints martyred?

Thanks for letting me keep my head, I'll need it tomorrow to cut off the turkey's neck