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Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?


Proverbs 31

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17 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Scripture does not support this. I don't see the 144,000 Jews anywhere in Revelation proclaiming the Gospel.

Okay, what do you suppose their mission is? I believe it is a short period of grace and salvation these 12 tribes will be involved with [preaching Salvation, which is the Gospel]. I believe they will be a light unto the gentiles.

Revelation 14:6 (KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [emphasis mine]

So, you think the 144,000, the two witnesses, and the flying angel will be silent about the Gospel and not working in concert for the same cause?

30 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Revelation does refer to Christians, (ie: the church) , in chapters 4-19. It uses the term "bond-servants" and "saints" to refer to those who have saving faith in Jesus.

As I've previously stated, ekklēsía [the church] is mentioned 19 times in Revelation chapters 1-3, and never again until Revelation 22:16, it is conspicuously absent. It's my contention the 'saints and bond-servants' you quote, are the 'saved' that convert and accept the Lord as their savior "after" the Rapture of the church and during the tribulation.

I suppose were all wasting our time bantering back and forth, as none of us will change our hermeneutic scriptural views. Most can't even come to terms if the book of Revelation is written in chronological order with parenthesis added for clarification and additional information.

God bless.

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Just now, Dennis1209 said:

Chapter four is basically an introduction and preparatory of things coming. From here on out there will be no mention of the church on earth. I believe the 24 elders represent the Rapture / Resurrection. Perhaps the 24 [12 + 12] also represent the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel? John was selected and called up to heaven, John a Jew and Israeli may represents Israel.

I Asked you specifically for content in chapter four that points to Israel, and John is not conclusive, as he is a part of the church. 

 

Just now, Dennis1209 said:

As I mentioned, the first three chapters of Revelation mention the church 19 times. A better question; show me the 'church' on earth anywhere after chapter three.

As I Mentioned, The saints are mentioned and called to endure on earth until chapter 14. And these saints are Christians. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (14:12)

The way I see it, the churches as institutions of men no longer exist, the corporate church. There is no church age there is only the Woman/ the doctrine, giving birth to the saints who then face the war on the saints by the beast of rev. 13:7-10 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Obviously these are not Jews as they are from all "Kindreds, tongues and nations", and they Hold to the faith. So the Onus is on you to explain who the saints are, But they are not Jewish converts.  

11 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Could you be more specific here? Do you think no one will come to accept Jesus as their Savior directly after the Rapture or in the tribulation? Or the disembodied saints asking how much longer before they are avenged, as being tribulation saints martyred?

The great tribulation is the Wrath of Satan not the wrath of God. There will be plagues from God during that time as well, but the Purpose of plagues is to lead to repentance. I see this first half of the week as an extension of the Long suffering of God Until the point is reached when repentance is no more found in the nations, which is found at the end of the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9:20-21)

16 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Thanks for letting me keep my head, I'll need it tomorrow to cut off the turkey's neck  :D

25467004_turkey-day1.jpg.214b3d498b929524444dd9cd095bd66e.jpg

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2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'll just leave it at this.  What you do with it is up to you.

  • Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”  Mark 13:35-37

On this I can agree: we are called to be on the alert.

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4 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I am starting to get it now.  Because the rapture is imminent,  i.e. he didn't tell us what to WATCH for concerning the signs of the rapture,  THAT is why the tribulation would be Jesus beating up on his bride.   Not only would the rapture come without warning,  so would the tribulation.   God would be an unjust God for tribulation to come upon the church without any type of warning.  Agreed.   When a man unjustly beats up his wife,  he doesn't say,  "Now, look out honey,  here comes the

ole 1-2.  It's not unjust because Jesus has told us to watch... And be ready.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Actually, the warnings to watch were specifically to the Jews during the last half of the week, for His coming to Armageddon. But we can certainly apply it to the rapture that comes at an UNKNOWN time when people are thinking peace and safety.  What then can WE watch for? Those that were born at the right time could have seen Israel become a nation and could then start watching that generation begin to die. Today MUCH of that generation is gone, meaning every day fewer and fewer that saw it and understood it are still alive. in other words, the rapture is close. 

For the tribulation, no warning for that either, except when Christ comes for His bride, it is instantly then the Day of the Lord. That is why Paul said The Day will come as a thief: no warning.  There will be warning for the "tribulation" or 70th week for those that understand: when the 6th seal great earthquake takes place, and untold millions have suddenly disappeared, they would Know that in a few days the trumpet judgments would begin. "Tribulation," as in the 70th week is NOT coming on the church. The rapture comes first.  You are not far off here! Good job.

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56 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

So,  NOW you are saying that Luke 17 is not about the rapture and when it takes place.   You are waffling on me now. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Where do you find the rapture ANYWHERE in the gospels, much less Luke 17? It is simply NOT THERE. I like waffles, but I am NOT waffling.

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On 11/24/2019 at 8:47 AM, Last Daze said:

I used to be pre-trib too then transitioned to pre-wrath based on how Matthew 24 aligned with the seals.  Now, I think that post-trib is more likely. 

Uh, but pre-wrath IS post-trib. Please don't muddy the waters. It may not be your version of post-trib, but pre-wrath is definitely post-trib.

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On 11/24/2019 at 7:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

I don't get a whole lot of time online, so can't keep up with the day-by-day back and forth. Just want to let you know that practically my whole blog is an in-depth study of the various facets of post-trib, pre-wrath, 6th seal Rapture.

Index here:

 

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35 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Uh, but pre-wrath IS post-trib. Please don't muddy the waters. It may not be your version of post-trib, but pre-wrath is definitely post-trib.

It all depends on your perspective on the source of the trib and object of the trib.  The 3.5 years is unlike anything since there was a nation.  It affects believers and unbelievers unlike although in different ways.  So, yes, terminology and definitions are important.  My usage of the terms was accurate.

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3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I will not pursue this any further with you.   If Luke 17 has nothing to do with the rapture,  why did you discuss it as if it did,  and now say that it is not about the rapture?  If you can not believe that Luke 17 involves the rapture,  then everything that I have presented is just a vain argument.   If the Olivet Discourse doesn't tell us anything about when when the rapture takes place,  how can you be sure that Paul knew that he didn't know either? Paul said,  "I beseech you,  BY THE WORD OF THE LORD..."; Is this just based on one of the many revelations that he received from the Lord,  but that the Lord didn't tell his disciples? Does "by the word of the Lord", mean by revelation given to Paul?   That's like me believing those things that you advocate that have no backing of scripture [5 seals,  NO Armageddon in the gospels,  No rapture in the gospels, etc.].  The only thing that I have found that you use to connect the gospels to the book of Revelation is Paul's man of sin.   But with that you have yet to identify where he is at in the gospels.   

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

You quoted Luke 17: "one taken and one left" and My reply:

This is easily understood: there are TWO TIMES at least where "one is taken and one is left." It will be true for the pretrib rapture and it will be true for the parable of the tares. 

Notice I DID NOT SAY that Luke 17 is talking about the rapture, did I?  I was more speaking from common sense: it is an absolute: at the time of the rapture, there is going to be a bed somewhere with two people in it, one born again and one NOT - so one is going to be taken and one NOT taken. Same with two in the field or two anywhere else. 

The truth is, Luke 17 "one taken and one left" cannot be about the rapture: did you notice where those taken are taken? At the rapture

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

At the rapture the entire man will be "taken: body, soul and Spirit. " But at the parable of the tares, it is very possible angels will take only the human spirit and leave many dead bodies. Forget "half" taken; that is not the intent here. We don't know how many will be taken in the parable of the tares. Neither do we know how many will be taken in the rapture. In the first case the lawless will be taken, and it the second case, those born again will be taken.

If Luke 17 has nothing to do with the rapture,  why did you discuss it as if it did  YOU are the one that quoted Luke, not me!

If the Olivet Discourse doesn't tell us anything about when when the rapture takes place,  how can you be sure that Paul knew   Paul is the ONLY writer of the New Testament who got revealed knowledge of the rapture. OF COURSE He knew!  Yes, of couse he got the info about the rapture straight from God. That is what revealed knowledge is.  When Paul got it, those alive and in Christ CHANGING was a mystery - meaning NO ONE knew it before Paul.

What you are missing: the gospels was about Jesus who was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel. God's plan to go to the Gentiles had to wait until Israel had a few years to accept Jesus as their Messiah through the teaching of the Apostles.  They ultimately rejected HIM, so God sent Paul to raise up a people that were Gentiles. THEN, we have scripture about the Gentile church. 

When Jesus talked of the end times, it was to Jewish people about the end of THEIR age.  Don't take my word for it: research it. Then from chapter 8 to chapter 16 in Revelation is the 70th week OF DANIEL - a time exclusively for Daniel's people. 

There are only HINTS of the Gentile church in the gospels, such as John 14, when Jesus comes for His bride. 

Sorry if I did not make myself clear about Luke 17 and the rapture. It was not intentional. 

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

It all depends on your perspective on the source of the trib and object of the trib.  The 3.5 years is unlike anything since there was a nation.  It affects believers and unbelievers unlike although in different ways.  So, yes, terminology and definitions are important.  My usage of the terms was accurate.

Also important is WHERE John places those days of GT in his book. It is not difficult to tell: God gives a warning not to take the mark, in chapter 14. We can be absolutely sure God will not give this warning late. So the days of GT in Revelation come after the warning in chapter 14. 

OF COURSE this destroys prewrath thought, so they insist they must rearrange Revelation to fit.

Edited by iamlamad
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