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Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?


Proverbs 31

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10 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Again, this isn't about "unworthy" Christians, ...by the way, ...that's an oxymoron...

This is a question about the "character" of Jesus,

...why won't you just answer my question?

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

Hi JPT,

If I may, I'll answer.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

So, in this scripture that you are quoting/using, it says......"EVEN as Christ loved the Church....."

How did Christ love the Church?

Did He not give everything, I mean absolutely everything He had for His church....us?

Did He not endure the worst of whippings, floggings, punches, beatings.....crucifixion....for us, His Bride?

Scripture says He was unrecognizable as a human.

Why do you think it is only the western church who should escape the tribulation, when our brothers and sisters in over 50 countries face persecution/tribulation daily?

This emotional cry of...."why would God beat up His bride"  is .......well.....nonsense in my opinion.

IN THIS WORLD YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION.

Just believe scripture.

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1 minute ago, JoeCanada said:

Scripture says He was unrecognizable as a human.

Yes brother I agree with you...

1 minute ago, JoeCanada said:

Why do you think it is only the western church who should escape the tribulation, when our brothers and sisters in over 50 countries face persecution/tribulation daily?

Who is "persecuting" them, ...did Jesus not tell us it would be the world?

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.  John 15:18-19

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.  John 16:33

So the real "question" is, ...why should the "end time" Church be the "only" church, since Pentecost, that will be persecuted by "God" during the Tribulation? 

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22 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

Does that sound like the bride to be is ready for her groom? 

Yep!!!

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:  According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:   Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,  to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.  Eph 1:3-6

To me personally, ...I believe the Church was declared "ready" for the marriage by God himself, ...before the foundation of the world...

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.  Jude 1:24-25

And reiterated again, that the Church was "ready" for the marriage, by God the Holy Spirit about 2,000 years ago...

Like I said friend, I'm not going to argue about it, ...you can believe what you want to... 

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9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:
Quote

I think you grasp what Jesus is saying about the [2 different]  days of the Son of man, being likened unto the [2 important parts of the] days of Noah.   He equates the [2 days of the] rapture and his advent/ coming of the kingdom with the DAY that Noah entered ark and the DAY that the flood came. 

No, when He comes in His day it will be like lightning etc. Noah enters the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed. The day the flood comes is His wrath. The Church will not be here for the tribulation as they are in the ark 7 days before the flood. There will be another day of the son of man, when it will be like lightning etc. At this coming all eyes will see Him in the clouds. It will be like the days of Lot and destruction, wrath will occur the day Lot leaves Sodom.

Quote

 Matthew and Luke equivocates the parousia/ coming with the day that Jesus is revealed;  and the erchomai/ coming with the arrival of the kingdom of god.   And in both gospels,  they both equate the parousia and his revealing with lightning that is visible from one end of the spectrum to the other [east to west].  And your advocation of a secret rapture is exactly what Jesus is warning against believing someone who tries to tell you differently. 

You should rethink this. He comes for the Gentiles, then the eyes of the 12 tribes are opened and they are regrafted into the olive tree.

Quote

In Luke 17 Jesus said that the days that are coming [in which people try to convince that Jesus has secretly come]  would be BEFORE any of the days of the son of man have taken place. 

That BEFORE comment is impossible because the day of the son of man IS WHEN HE COMES as lightning.
 

Quote

 

 But I understand why you believe that.   Jesus said that the reaction of the world to the period of time [between the rapture and the kingdom,] will be oblivious behavior to the impending destruction, that will come to everyone.   He said that the world will be acting like it didn't happen.   This is reiterated in the words of Peter. 

2Pe 3:4 KJV And saying, Where is the promise of his coming(parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

 They say those things now. Even when He comes for the Church, those that are here will not know that He has come. Those that gain understanding, the twelve tribes will understand. These are told to look up their redemption draws nigh, which happens at the end of the tribulation. Those here will know that He is coming soon.

As for the church, the GOODMAN will not know when the master will return.

Two raptures. One for the Gentiles and one for the twelve tribes.

 

 

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9 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi JPT,

If I may, I'll answer.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;  Eph 5:25

So, in this scripture that you are quoting/using, it says......"EVEN as Christ loved the Church....."

How did Christ love the Church?

Did He not give everything, I mean absolutely everything He had for His church....us?

Did He not endure the worst of whippings, floggings, punches, beatings.....crucifixion....for us, His Bride?

Scripture says He was unrecognizable as a human.

Why do you think it is only the western church who should escape the tribulation, when our brothers and sisters in over 50 countries face persecution/tribulation daily?

This emotional cry of...."why would God beat up His bride"  is .......well.....nonsense in my opinion.

IN THIS WORLD YOU WILL HAVE TRIBULATION.

Just believe scripture.

Agreed.  The whole "why would God beat up His bride" rhetoric is an emotional appeal designed to exploit one's lack of scriptural understanding.  God doesn't beat up His bride.

  • “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.  If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  John 15:18-20

The things that God allows to happen are not subject to our sense of fairness.  Ask Job.  The bride is to remain faithful and persevere to the end, regardless of what He allows to come our way.

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On 11/24/2019 at 8:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

This post demonstrates the classic prewrath error. One day VanKampen called Rosenthal and said, "I've found it! I've found it!" He had been looking for a clue the church in general had missed for 1900 years! What was it he found? In Matthew 24, it tells of the cosmic signs in the sun and moon AFTER the days of great tribulation. But in Joel 2 the cosmic signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the Day of the Lord.  The day of the Lord then begins at the 6th seal, so, Van Kampen reasoned, the days of GT MUST come before the 6th seal.  It SOUNDS right. Millions have swallowed this line of thinking "hook, line, and sinker." 

So what is wrong with this? It is very simple: the signs at the 6th seal come BEFORE the entire 70th week,  are the signs for the coming Day of the Lord -  and are NOT THE SAME signs as Matthew talks about that come AFTER the entire 70th week and is the sign for the coming of Our Lord to Armageddon.  In other words, these are TWO SEPARATE signs, for TWO different purposes, and come at TWO separate times, separated by over 7 years.

Notice that at the 6th seal and in Joel 2, the signs are a blood red moon and a sun "black as sackcloth."  Stop and think: WHEN does the moon appear red? It is during an eclipse. WHEN does the sign of the sun appearing black happen? During a total solar eclipse. But stop and think: how would anyone KNOW the moon is red in color? They would have to SEE IT. How would anyone know the sun is black? They would have to SEE IT.

On the other hand, if the moon is darkened, no light is being reflected and the moon cannot be seen. If the sun is darkened, no one is seeing it either. Strong's tells us this "darkened" means "absence of light." Notice also the stars don't give any light. I was living in Idaho when Mount St. Helen's blew her top. At 2:00 or 3:00 PM it became dark as night. NOTHING looking up was visible! The sun was blocked out by ash.

If people would read in Joel, chapter 2 tells us of the sign for the coming Day of the Lord, while Joel 3 tells us of the sign for the Coming Christ and King.  If they would just notice that the sign at the 6th seal is part of the seals that is sealing a BOOK, and what is written inside that book is most of the rest of Revelation, they would know that the 6th seal comes BEFORE the entire 70th week (what is inside the book) so it is impossible to move the 6th seal to a point later in Revelation. 

In Revelation, if we just follow John's narrative, the Beast that will cause the days of GT is seen rising in chapter 13. That chapter also shows us HOW He will create those days of GT. He will force people to worship an image (Think Nebuchadnezzar) and receive a mark on threat of beheading. However, it is in chapter 14 that God gives the warning about the mark, showing is that at the time of chapter 14 the mark is not yet being enforced. Therefore, the days of GT in Revelation must come after the warning in chapter 14. As confirmation, the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

Therefore to assume the days of GT are before the 6th seal is simply very very poor exegesis. Prewrath theory is proven wrong again and again in Revelation.

Edited by iamlamad
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23 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I have decided that I am pre-heaven.. all the others failed me due to difficulties that all the various ideas have.

I completely agree, yet many will continue to debate the issue out of pride with big type, all caps, colored verses, you name it, to push their pet theology.

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2 hours ago, OneLight said:

I completely agree, yet many will continue to debate the issue out of pride with big type, all caps, colored verses, you name it, to push their pet theology.

Colored verses = pride?  I use bold, italic, and color for clarification since this is a textual forum.  Is that wrong?

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4 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Colored verses = pride?  I use bold, italic, and color for clarification since this is a textual forum.  Is that wrong?

I am talking more about those who feel it is necessary to be overbearing in order to get their point across.  Highlighting and using bold and color is not wrong as it makes a specific meaning stand out, but when someone uses a very large font, capitalizes sentences, and uses colors at the same time projects being very prideful as they are screaming in the readers face  with force in order to stand out and to shut the other down.   I am sure you can find such posts just by roaming through threads that are less than a couple of months old. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 9:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

I started out pre-trib, simply because that is what I was told by the staff at the first church I attended. But when I studied it, I became "mid-trib". But it's really "post trib, pre-wrath". 

But I've even gone somewhat into the "pan-trib" camp. That is, it will all pan out in the end. :) Bottom line is that I think everyone is wrong, just as they were about Christ before he was resurrected. Nobody got it right.

The best way to interpret prophesy is in hindsight. :)

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