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Proverbs 31

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Just now, OneLight said:

I have heard of this theology before, overlapping.  What puzzles me most about this theory is that the first trumpet is not introduced until the 7th seal is opened, so how can there be any overlapping at all?  How can the sixth and seventh trumpet sound at the sixth seal when the trumpets had not been given to the angels yet to sound?

Revelation 8:1-2; 6

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.  And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Read my Post on the seven visions if you have not already. To me it is a literary device, You finish one vision before you start the next. bear in Mind John was in heaven being shown these things, and while the vision of the seals was finishing up the vision of the trumpets was getting ready to be shown him. You Will find this elsewhere in the transitions between the visions as well, John was just recording what he was saw.

So John was shown the seals to completion, then he was shown the trumpets to completion, then he was shown the characters to completion, and then the battles to completion. They all start at different times, and this explains the reasons for the various rapture passages in the various visions. So For example, the sixth seal speaks of the rapture, the sixth trumpet does, and so does rev. 14, Now some have come to conclude there are multiple raptures, I do not have to do that. Revelation is like a set of blueprints, one drawing shows the foundation plan, and the next the floor plan, they may allude to some of the elevations, but without the elevations you can only guess what the structure looks like, and then you need elevations from four sides to get the full scope of the structure, the heights of the walls, the windows etc. By itself any one drawing will only get you so far in the construction of the building. In Other words what this multiple visions does is make the book of revelation timeline a three dimensional timeline. When You start doing this seals will add to the understanding of trumpets, and trumpets to the understanding of characters and you get a much clearer picture that fits well in the final week, (On the property so to speak) and it opens up a simplicity to the events as well that anyone can come to understand with the instruction of the Holy Ghost. 

Most prophecy experts see revelation as a two dimensional timeline, Some of the more intelligent and well studies such as Iamlamad and RM place parenthesis therein to counter the contradictions and or repetitions in the text, But what this does is make it even more confusing, and less certain leaving the placement of parenthesis at the discretion of the intelligentsia, and they never arrive at the Truth. What I am proposing is both simple and complex. Anyone can approach this with this understanding, that the overall chronology mirrors the fall feasts, and are like the birthing process. Labor pains followed by great labor as the birth occurs followed by Joy. It is also an optimistic vision in that it gives us the strength to endure. 

 

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34 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Read my Post on the seven visions if you have not already. To me it is a literary device, You finish one vision before you start the next. bear in Mind John was in heaven being shown these things, and while the vision of the seals was finishing up the vision of the trumpets was getting ready to be shown him. You Will find this elsewhere in the transitions between the visions as well, John was just recording what he was saw.

So John was shown the seals to completion, then he was shown the trumpets to completion, then he was shown the characters to completion, and then the battles to completion. They all start at different times, and this explains the reasons for the various rapture passages in the various visions. So For example, the sixth seal speaks of the rapture, the sixth trumpet does, and so does rev. 14, Now some have come to conclude there are multiple raptures, I do not have to do that. Revelation is like a set of blueprints, one drawing shows the foundation plan, and the next the floor plan, they may allude to some of the elevations, but without the elevations you can only guess what the structure looks like, and then you need elevations from four sides to get the full scope of the structure, the heights of the walls, the windows etc. By itself any one drawing will only get you so far in the construction of the building. In Other words what this multiple visions does is make the book of revelation timeline a three dimensional timeline. When You start doing this seals will add to the understanding of trumpets, and trumpets to the understanding of characters and you get a much clearer picture that fits well in the final week, (On the property so to speak) and it opens up a simplicity to the events as well that anyone can come to understand with the instruction of the Holy Ghost. 

Most prophecy experts see revelation as a two dimensional timeline, Some of the more intelligent and well studies such as Iamlamad and RM place parenthesis therein to counter the contradictions and or repetitions in the text, But what this does is make it even more confusing, and less certain leaving the placement of parenthesis at the discretion of the intelligentsia, and they never arrive at the Truth. What I am proposing is both simple and complex. Anyone can approach this with this understanding, that the overall chronology mirrors the fall feasts, and are like the birthing process. Labor pains followed by great labor as the birth occurs followed by Joy. It is also an optimistic vision in that it gives us the strength to endure.

I'll stick with what scripture says and not make myself jump through a lot of hoops in order to follow a theory.  Jesus said to John that He will show John "things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."  Jesus also said "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."  I am no one who seeks special knowledge from plain scripture as if it were encrypted and one needs to know the secret key to unlock what Jesus plainly states.

Good luck with your theory.

Edited by OneLight
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Just now, OneLight said:

I'll stick with what scripture says and not make myself jump through a lot of hoops in order to follow a theory.  Jesus said to John that He will show John "things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."  Jesus also said "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."  I am no one who seeks special knowledge from plain scripture as if it were encrypted and one needs to know the secret key to unlock what Jesus plainly states.

Good luck with your theory.

Thanks, I think it is more than just a theory though. Re: "special knowledge" I Am of the opinion that if you ask he will show you.... He did me, I studied it for years with my own intellect and then I gave up, I said I cannot figure this out, and then he showed me. Once I got my understanding out of the way is when he began to reveal things to me about it. You should try this sometime. I Believe this is the "blessing" John spoke of that comes with studying the book of Revelation. 

God Bless.

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33 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Thanks, I think it is more than just a theory though. Re: "special knowledge" I Am of the opinion that if you ask he will show you.... He did me, I studied it for years with my own intellect and then I gave up, I said I cannot figure this out, and then he showed me. Once I got my understanding out of the way is when he began to reveal things to me about it. You should try this sometime. I Believe this is the "blessing" John spoke of that comes with studying the book of Revelation. 

God Bless.

Jesus also gave a strict warning about Revelation.  Revelation 22:18-19 tells us

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Rearranging the sequence of events is adding to and taking away from Revelations.  I'd be very careful not to take it at face value.  Just because you could not figure it out doesn't mean there is a special understanding one needs to obtain.

Shalom

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7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

No need to put your head on the chopping block with me, But I will challenge what you believe.

Without rehashing my post on John's 7 visions, I address the doctrine of immanency there, and have no issue therewith. 

I Will ask you a couple of questions, Just to get a feel for where you stand. 

1 Why is the book of revelation addressed to the churches, and not to Israel if it only applies to Israel?

2 Why is Israel only mentioned twice in revelation, and both times with regard to the 144,000, and the earthly temple only mentioned once if the book pertains only to the Jewish people?

3 We who believe in Jesus are the saints, are we not? why are the saints still around on earth in revelation 14, and they are called to endure? 

As for the bride being beat up argument, Tell that to the believers in the middle east who are dealing with Muslim persecution, or those in NOKO, or China or any of the other 105 countries around the world where Christians are being persecuted and beat up. It is only in a country such as we are fortunate enough to live in that a doctrine like the pre-tribulation rapture can form. 

  

 

 

The following is my hermeneutic view pertaining to your questions. As I previously alluded to; I don't want to be dogmatic in my prophetic views, as time unfolds I could be mistaken in my interpretations. With that said:

(1) The Lord tells John to write about; the things that were, the things that are, and the things that will be [past-present-future], and John does exactly that. The 'church' is mentioned nineteen (19) times in the first three chapters; never again until Revelation chapter 21. Chapters one through three address the churches, historic timelines, etc. Suddenly, between chapters three and four, the church is gone. I believe John being called up to Heaven there is symbolic, a type and shadow of the Rapture / Resurrection of the body of Christ. I believe the twenty-four elders represent the translated church for a number of scriptural reasons. Starting in Chapter 4:, it's obvious the focus shifts to the Jew's and Israel, and the nations and forces against them.

(2) As I mentioned in a previous post; the book of Revelation is all about the unveiling of Jesus Christ; bringing the Jew's to their knees to believe and own up to them piercing and crucifying their Messiah, repenting and begging for His return. To deal with the heathen Gentiles / nations and unbelievers and make an end to the age of the Gentiles. To bring in the 'Kingdom of God' to Earth at the end of the seven year tribulation. Not withstanding Christ; the entire Bible is centered around God's peculiar people, the Hebrew / Jew's. The Jew's were chosen of God for His people, the word of God was penned by Jew's, the word of God was preserved through them, and Jesus was born a Jew. The book of Revelation plainly centers around the nation of Israel, the Jew's and what and how the nations and Antichrist is doing. 

(3) Yes, we agree on that, all those whom have believed on the Lord are saints. In addition to the 144,000 Jew's sealed by God and proclaiming the Gospel during the tribulation. I believe that immediately after the Rapture of the bride of Christ [the church], many are going to realize they were not truly saved. They will suddenly realize they are going to now enter the tribulation and sincerely repent and call on the name of the Lord and this time truly get saved. The 'age of Grace' is over when Christ calls His bride home. Born again believers after the Rapture and those converts in the tribulation will have to endure to the end to be saved. It appears to me that "most" Christians will have to die a martyrs death. I believe the prayers of these saints are the ones martyred for their belief during the persecution and tribulation of the Jew's and Christians. Those will have to endure to the end.

I see and understand your view of the Muslim persecution now going on. However; like I stated my view before, we are appointed to tribulation and persecution here on earth, as has always been. But this persecution right now on earth is selective, localized, not everywhere all at once, nor genocide in scope. In other words, not the whole body of Christ or all the Jew's at this time. On the other hand, during the tribulation, both Jew's and Christians "globally" and in mass will be tortured and mass murdered [genocide] during this period. Collectively, the body of Christ [His church] is not subject to the 'wrath' of God, that makes absolutely no sense to me to think otherwise. 

Well, for what it's worth, that's my long diatribe and understanding. Others mileage will greatly vary I'm sure.

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20 minutes ago, OneLight said:

esus also gave a strict warning about Revelation.  Revelation 22:18-19 tells us

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Rearranging the sequence of events is adding to and taking away from Revelations.  I'd be very careful not to take it at face value.  Just because you could not figure it out doesn't mean there is a special understanding one needs to obtain.

Adding Parenthesis is adding to the text. Rearranging prophecy is just studying it. Old testament prophecies jump from 1st advent to second advent, to near fulfillment in the course of a paragraph, and takes Spiritual discernment and instruction to understand rightly. The same is True of Revelation.

So I strongly disagree with your last assessment. 

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11 hours ago, OneLight said:

I am all for a discussion as they are designed to provide another view a person may not of thought of before.  Debates are designed to stand firm in a theory and persuade the readers their opponent is wrong and they are right.  I notice a huge difference between a discussion and a debate.  It was through a discussion that made me go back and search the scripture to see if what I was being shown was the truth or not. 

The reasons why those who "cut and run" do so may very.  Some may not like the attitude of those participating.  Some will just see what is being said as so far out in left field they can't make any sense of anything being presented.  These two are probably tied for the number one reason people ignore the topic.  Some have heard it so many time they can probably come pretty close to telling you blow by blow how this will go down.  Very few will not care enough about the subject enough to want to even consider what is being said.

So what do you believe. No rapture? Pretrib? Pre wrath? Mid trib?

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1 minute ago, Dennis1209 said:

The following is my hermeneutic view pertaining to your questions. As I previously alluded to; I don't want to be dogmatic in my prophetic views, as time unfolds I could be mistaken in my interpretations. With that said:

(1) The Lord tells John to write about; the things that were, the things that are, and the things that will be [past-present-future], and John does exactly that. The 'church' is mentioned nineteen (19) times in the first three chapters; never again until Revelation chapter 21. Chapters one through three address the churches, historic timelines, etc. Suddenly, between chapters three and four, the church is gone. I believe John being called up to Heaven there is symbolic, a type and shadow of the Rapture / Resurrection of the body of Christ. I believe the twenty-four elders represent the translated church for a number of scriptural reasons. Starting in Chapter 4:, it's obvious the focus shifts to the Jew's and Israel, and the nations and forces against them.

(2) As I mentioned in a previous post; the book of Revelation is all about the unveiling of Jesus Christ; bringing the Jew's to their knees to believe and own up to them piercing and crucifying their Messiah, repenting and begging for His return. To deal with the heathen Gentiles / nations and unbelievers and make an end to the age of the Gentiles. To bring in the 'Kingdom of God' to Earth at the end of the seven year tribulation. Not withstanding Christ; the entire Bible is centered around God's peculiar people, the Hebrew / Jew's. The Jew's were chosen of God for His people, the word of God was penned by Jew's, the word of God was preserved through them, and Jesus was born a Jew. The book of Revelation plainly centers around the nation of Israel, the Jew's and what and how the nations and Antichrist is doing. 

(3) Yes, we agree on that, all those whom have believed on the Lord are saints. In addition to the 144,000 Jew's sealed by God and proclaiming the Gospel during the tribulation. I believe that immediately after the Rapture of the bride of Christ [the church], many are going to realize they were not truly saved. They will suddenly realize they are going to now enter the tribulation and sincerely repent and call on the name of the Lord and this time truly get saved. The 'age of Grace' is over when Christ calls His bride home. Born again believers after the Rapture and those converts in the tribulation will have to endure to the end to be saved. It appears to me that "most" Christians will have to die a martyrs death. I believe the prayers of these saints are the ones martyred for their belief during the persecution and tribulation of the Jew's and Christians. Those will have to endure to the end.

I see and understand your view of the Muslim persecution now going on. However; like I stated my view before, we are appointed to tribulation and persecution here on earth, as has always been. But this persecution right now on earth is selective, localized, not everywhere all at once, nor genocide in scope. In other words, not the whole body of Christ or all the Jew's at this time. On the other hand, during the tribulation, both Jew's and Christians "globally" and in mass will be tortured and mass murdered [genocide] during this period. Collectively, the body of Christ [His church] is not subject to the 'wrath' of God, that makes absolutely no sense to me to think otherwise. 

Well, for what it's worth, that's my long diatribe and understanding. Others mileage will greatly vary I'm sure.

Point 1 I agree. If you do not understand my chronology you will see that I have no problem with this, Just like I have no problem with Iamlamad's statement that the rapture is at the sixth seal.

This Part of Point1 I do not see. "Starting in Chapter 4:, it's obvious the focus shifts to the Jew's and Israel, and the nations and forces against them."

Please show me what you are seeing in chapter 4 that points to Israel?

Point 2 The book of Revelation plainly centers around the nation of Israel, the Jew's and what and how the nations and Antichrist is doing. 

Why then is the entire Book addressed to the churches. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; (1:4)

There is a time when the scales are removed from the eyes of Israel, beginning with the 144000 of the tribes of Israel, and then more at the repentance brought about by the Earthquake when the two witnesses are raised from the dead.... Up until that time the gentiles trample the Holy Place. Soon after the rapture Israel begins to Mourn Him whom they have pierced, so in a sense you are right about this happening after the rapture.

Point 3 Mostly agreement here, I disagree with the "tribulation saints" concept as understood by the pre-trib proponents.

I see and understand your view of the Muslim persecution now going on. However; like I stated my view before, we are appointed to tribulation and persecution here on earth, as has always been. But this persecution right now on earth is selective, localized, not everywhere all at once, nor genocide in scope. In other words, not the whole body of Christ or all the Jew's at this time. On the other hand, during the tribulation, both Jew's and Christians "globally" and in mass will be tortured and mass murdered [genocide] during this period. Collectively, the body of Christ [His church] is not subject to the 'wrath' of God, that makes absolutely no sense to me to think otherwise.  

We agree here more than we disagree. I explain this in my Post regarding the seals being unlocked but restrained at the resurrection of Christ. Iamlamad has done some very good work explaining the opening of these seals though I disagree with him as to what the seals are, particularly the first one.

 ; I don't want to be dogmatic in my prophetic views, as time unfolds I could be mistaken in my interpretations. With that said: 

I am the same, though I come off as being stubborn. I Am still learning and figuring these things out, and I do not think we will fully understand until it all happens. 

See, I did not chop your head off!

 

 

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8 minutes ago, The Light said:

So what do you believe. No rapture? Pretrib? Pre wrath? Mid trib?

I believe the only real truth about the rapture can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - at the last trumpet.  All else is no more then man trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to come up with the closest picture possible.  If we were meant to know, God would of told us in the first place.  It's best to live each day for Christ and let the events unfold as they will.  Why gamble?

Edited by OneLight
bad spelling ...
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2 hours ago, OneLight said:

I believe the only real truth about the rapture can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - at the last trumpet.  All else is no more then man trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to come up with the closest picture possible.  If we were meant to know, God would of told us in the first place.  It's best to live each day for Christ and let the events unfold as they will.  Why gamble?

By comparing the coming of the Lord in Matt 24 to Rev 6 we can tell that a rapture happens at the 6th seal. Since we know that those that love God are not appointed to wrath we can safely conclude that a rapture occurs before any trumpets are blown by angels.

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