Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

[OldCoot]

Something that doesn't seem to get mentioned is the details of....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NKJV) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The Greek apostasia in that passage, many Greek scholars feel is simply "departure", "the departing", "the departure", "a departure", etc.  The text of the 1599 Geneva Bible shows that....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition. 

In fact, virtually every English translation prior to the KJV did virtually the same thing.  "falling away" did not come into the text until the KJV showed up.   Without a direct object of what is being departed from, it is taking commentary license to demand that it be viewed as the "falling away", "departure from the faith", etc.  

The apostasia only appears twice, and in the other occurrence, Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is mentioned.  To impute that the the same meaning of a spiritual departure is in view in 2 Thessalonians is taking unsupported liberty in translation because nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 shows what is being departed from.  

Apostasia and its equivalent, aphistemi, the uses in many other passages have in view a physical departure over a spiritual departure.  For instance Luke 2:37, 4:13, 13:27, Acts 5:37-38, 15:38, 19:9, 22:29, 2 Corinthians 12:8. Thus, it is not outside the bounds to view 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as showing a physical departure must occur before the beast / antichrist / son of perdition comes on the scene since apostasia in that passage stands alone.

There are many Greek scholars who concur. 

When we look at the context laid out....

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

The context of the passage is our gathering to the Lord, not a departing from Him.  And if 2 Thessalonians 2:3 simply means "departure" then based on the context of verse 1 it would mean a physical departure / removal / rapture...... our gathering to Him.

And if that is true, then Paul wrote that the departure / removal / rapture must occur before the man of sin / son of perdition / antichrist / beast is revealed. 

I suppose that even would qualify as pre-wrath. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Paul the Apostle wrote: 1 Tim.4:v.1-2 

1 -Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 - Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

 

2 Tim. 4:v.3-4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall TURN AWAY their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

The consequences of this decadent spiritual environment we can see in the description of the seven churches of Asia.

Terrible; Terrible. Very terrible. 

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?  Like 18:v.8

 

 

Are you then saying I am speaking lies and hypocrisy?  Be careful. You are walking on thin ice.  I may make mistakes about these things, but lying and hypocrisy implies willful intent to deceive.  To make such accusations of others without proof of intent is a violation of the 9th commandment.  Now that would qualify as Terrible; Terrible.  Very Terrible.

I sure hope you are not implying what I seemed to pick up from your response.  This is an instance where I hope I am wrong.

[Revelation Man]

On 11/24/2019 at 8:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

I only became a pre-wrath believer about 5 years ago.  It was shortly after my brother died from a heart attack.  And it was during the time that we were hearing on a daily basis of the ISIS beheadings.  It was a very difficult time, but it drove me to my knees and to the Word.  At the time, I was afraid I would cave if there was a sword to my neck.  However, after spending 4 years where I read nothing but my bible, I now cry at the thought that I would ever deny my precious Savior.

I heard a wise saying once.  "I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and surprised by the rapture, than to be prepared for the rapture and surprised by the tribulation."  Yes indeed!

We are in continual tribulation our Lord told us. Anyone of us could find ourselves in danger at any moment. But the Lord is our Shepard in any case. 

On 11/24/2019 at 8:59 AM, Proverbs 31 said:

For those who don't know what pre-wrath is, I believe we are here through Revelation 6.  Compare that chapter to Matthew 24.  Jesus said, "AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars will fall from the sky."  That happens in Revelation 6, meaning the tribulation is over at that point.  Now His wrath will be unleashed.  His disciples asked him what are the signs of end of the age.  He only mentions the things that happen in Revelation 6 (the seals).  Why does He only mention the seals, and not the bowls or the trumpets?  It is because we will be here for the seals, but not the bowls or the trumpets.

This means after the Tribulation period. which is known via Joel 2, which is the Sun and the Moon going dark, but that is only a part of the Tribulation, we would have to list all the Seal, Trump and Vial Judgments to get the full gist of its magnitude, that was not Jesus/ intention, he only wanted to point to AFTER the tribulation period, and the most noted sign is the Sun and moon not giving her light. Seal number 6 is not the only time she doesn't give her light, it also happens by 1/3's during the Trumps and IN FULL during the Vials, so we get pitch black at that time.  So after the 42 month period of God's Wrath the Lord Jesus will come, but he comes with the Church, I don't know how you guys miss this tbh.

Rev. 19 shows the Saints in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, then returning to defeat the Beast !! Rev. 4 and 5 clearly shows the Saints in Heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened. Then in Rev. 7:9-16 they are shown again, after the Seals are opened. 

All of the Seals save MAYBE the 7th are opened on day 1261, so there is 1260 days left, we know this because the first 5 are all associated with the Beasts reign on earth. The First four are his actions bringing RESULTS to pass. 1. He Conquers, 2. He brings War via taking away Peace, 3. He brings Famine via his policies/wars. 4. He brings sickness and death, all of these four seals happen over a 42 month period of time.

We now move on to another of his actions, he kills the Saints who became Faithful Servants AFTER the Rapture, these are the Martyrs under the 5th Seal and these are killed over a 42 month period of time. The 6th Seal is thus God announcing His Wrath is at hand, but all 6 seals are opened within minutes, they all PROJECT FORWARD, they are not contingent upon coming actions. God's Wrath will last 42 months, Satan is kicked out of Heaven here, he and his Demons are the stars that fall from heaven as untimely figs. We know the Dragon chases the Women {Israel} for 42 months. 

 

P.S. Matthew 24 is imagined as being a part of Rev. 6 BEFORE verse 15. Its just not there brother, Matt. 4-6 is about Jerusalem and 70 AD, then verses 7-14 is about the Church Age. If not then Jesus just left all that out !! 2000 years of the Church is the Nation vs. Nation, Famines/Pestilences/Black Plague deaths etc. The TROUBLES you guys are looking for are shown after verse 15, after Jesus mentions the AoD. 

The THREE MENTIONS of false christs are there for a specific reason. The first fulfills John 5:43, the Pharisees/Jews put forth a "POLITICAL MESSIAH" to save them from the Fourth Beast after REJECTING Christ Jesus. In verse 11 Jesus is speaking about the 2000 some odd year Church Age false preacher types like David Koresh, Jim Jones and Joseph Smith etc. Then in verse 24 we get THE Anti-Christ and THE False Prophet who work Miracles. 

 

Before verse 15, Matt. 24 has nothing to do with the 70th week. Nor can it. The Disciples were told in verse 9 of their impending deaths. These are BIRTH PANGS which need to all come to pass before the baby {70th Week} can be born. Amen. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 11/24/2019 at 11:35 AM, Wayne222 said:

I am pre wrath view too. You know it only in Pentecostal and a lot of evangelical churchs that hold to pre trib. It's so plain in the word that we go through the trib. Corrie ten boom. Even called the pre trib false teaching. I think many will be offended when it hits the fan and the great trib begins. The antichrist will look good to them.

The far vast majority of Christendom hold to pre trib brother. I don't even get why its a difficult issue for some tbh, its not difficult. We see the Church in Heaven in chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Rev. 7:9-16 after the Seals are opened. All 6 of the Seals are opened at the exact same time, they release the Beast to go forth for 42 months Conquering, Waring, brings Famine and Killing, thus Seal number 5 are a 42 month testimony of the Martyrs and Seal number 6 is God Announcing His Wrath has come and that Satan has been cast down to earth as untimely figs.

The Beast rules 42 Months, the Woman Flee 42 Months and Satan chases her 42 Months. Its all 1260 days, not 1259 or 1100 days. Satan is cast down on the Same day God allows the Beast to go forth. The difference between the Seals and the Trumps/Vials is God RELEASES the Seals which cover a 42 Month period of time, whereas the Trumps and Vials happen as they are Sounded or poured out. As a matter of fact, the 7th Seal releases the 7 Trumps, and the 7th Trump brings the 7 Vials, so you can say ALL of God's Wrath are RELEASED with the 7 Seals, and then the  Trumps and Vials ANNOUNCE EACH ONE. 

There are some who think its not important to know the timing, but it most certainly is, we can't understand eschatology at all if we can't get the timing of the Rapture right, and Satan loves having us confused. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Revelation Man

[The Light]

On 11/27/2019 at 9:27 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Quote

THE WOMAN

In fact  according the Word of God the woman is the Church of the Lord; It is she who is clothed with the (*Sun) Greater Light to rule the day (Gen.1.v.16), and the (*Moon) the Lesser Light under her feet to rule the night: the *Stars also was made for to shine as the brightness of the firmament and their works is to turn many to righteousness as is revealed in the Word of God through the prophet Daniel 12:v.3. The woman has the support of the Greater Light, and of the Lesser light, and of the twelve Stars.    

By parable the Greater Light is JESUS, the Lesser Light is the Holy Spirit, and the crown of twelve Stars upon the head of the woman are the twelve Apostles, by the way, the twelve tribes of Israel should be Judged by the twelve Apostles of the LORD(Matt.19:v.28), even now in this time of  regeneration, for the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.

ISRAEL

1 Kings 12:V.16 & 19 - 

16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.  19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.   By the way, JESUS is of the David's house, the terrible fact of rebellion of Israel against David explains the why our LORD Jesus came unto his own, and his own received Him not-John1:v.11-, and they crucified the promised Messias.  

Again, the woman is Israel. The fact that you feel a need to replace Israel with the Church isn't going to change the Word of God and His promise to Israel.
 

Quote

 

The Church is in heaven, pre trib

Wrong completely. The Church is in heaven, and the red Dragon with its 7 heads and 10 horns and a terrible and devilish TAIL is also in heaven.  By the way, what do you think is heaven? On the other hand, the woman in HEAVEN face to face with the red Dragon of 7 heads, 10 horns and a devilish TAIL, it has nothing to do with pre, mid, pos trib absolutely. Again: what do you think is heaven?

 

In this instance it is where the throne of God is.

Rev 19

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

² For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

³ And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

⁴ And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Quote

Wrong completely.  Take care. Be careful. Matthew 12:v.35-37

Be careful? For speaking the truth that the Church is not Israel?

 

[Wayne222]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The far vast majority of Christendom hold to pre trib brother. I don't even get why its a difficult issue for some tbh, its not difficult. We see the Church in Heaven in chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Rev. 7:9-16 after the Seals are opened. All 6 of the Seals are opened at the exact same time, they release the Beast to go forth for 42 months Conquering, Waring, bring Famine and Killing, thus Seal number 5 are a 42 month testimony of the Martyrs and Seal number 6 is God Announcing His Wrath has come and that Satan has been cast down to earth as untimely figs. The Bast rules 42 Months, the Woman Flee 42 Months and Satan chases her 42 Months. Its all 1260 days, not 12259 days. Satan is cast down on the Sane day God allows the Beast to go forth. The difference between the Seals and the Trumps/Vials is God RELEASES the Seals over a 42 Month period of time, whereas the Trumps and Vials happen as they are Sounded or poured out. As a matter of fact, the 7th Seal releases the Trumps, and the 7th Trump brings the 7 Vials, so you can say ALL of God's Wrath are RELEASED with the 7 Seal, and then the  Trumps and Vials ANNOUNCE EACH ONE. 

There are some who think its not important to know the timing, but it most certainly is, we can't understand eschatology at all if we can't get the timing of the Rapture right, and Satan loves having us confused. 

The pretrib is wrong. Most Christians dont believe in it. Believe it if you want. 

[OldCoot]

5 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

The pretrib is wrong. Most Christians dont believe in it. Believe it if you want. 

There is quite a bit of evidence from both OT and NT that supports a early, pre-trib removal of the righteous.  It is not obscured and hidden in scripture.  If one properly reads passages within the context they are written, things are not as obscure as many opposed to the pre-trib would like to believe.  And it is a requirement of the Torah that for any matter to be confirmed, it must have the support of at least two witnesses. And we have that in the OT and NT.   I accept very few doctrinal positions that cannot be supported in both OT and NT simultaneously.

The true debate and discussion should probably be centered around when does the actual great tribulation period start and its length?  Also in relation to when the false messiah / antichrist / man of sin / son of perdition is revealed.  Literally, the GT is only 3.5 years / 42 months in length.  And in light of that, then it can further be discussed at what point the removal occurs prior to or at the start of that period.  So the only real candidates are a pre 7 year removal or a pre 3.5 year removal.  Everything else is pretty weak scripturally compared to those two positions.

But indeed you are correct that most Christians, or at least many major denominations, don't believe it.  In general, the church en masse thru history has been greatly influenced by Augustine, Origin, et al about these things so the eschatology is little skewed.  But regarding the subject, numbers of people do not confirm a doctrinal portion.  As was the case during the time of the OT prophets, it is usually only a remnant that gets things right.

Edited November 30, 2019 by OldCoot

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

The pretrib is wrong. Most Christians dont believe in it. Believe it if you want. 

No, most Christians you know seem to not understand the timing, but most of Christendom understands the pre trib rapture. I venture to say on these Message boards you get a huge uptick to this line of thinking, and that might be the reason for your perception being off kilter as per the measurement. And tghe pre trib is right, according to the bible, not men. You can't overcome those facts, I understand that. 

[OldCoot]

Just now, Revelation Man said:

No, most Christians you know seem to not understand the timing, but most of Christendom understands the pre trib rapture. I venture to say on these Message boards you get a huge uptick to this line of thinking, and that might be the reason for your perception being off kilter as per the measurement. And tghe pre trib is right, according to the bible, not men. You can't overcome those facts, I understand that. 

It is true that many Christians "understand" the concept of a pre-trib removal, but thru history the institutional church has not supported it.  And likewise, many Christians have not supported it.   I do, and I am fully aware that puts me in the minority, but I have no problem with that.  Numbers don't impress me except in political elections.

[Revelation Man]

1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

It is true that many Christians "understand" the concept of a pre-trib removal, but thru history the institutional church has not supported it.  And likewise, many Christians have not supported it.   I do, and I am fully aware that puts me in the minority, but I have no problem with that.  Numbers don't impress me except in political elections.

I am not counting Catholics who may or not believe in the Church teachings, many of them believe in abortion against the hierarchy's wishes, so I am just counting the Churches in the United States, most believe in a pre trib Rapture, imho, but it just may be my region. I don't count the kook sects. From my perspective in the south most all of the Churches understand the pre trib rapture. Its not even debatable really, I kind of get frustrated with elder Christians who can't get this right. They lead others down the wrong path on this subject, and it becomes almost impossible to understand eschatology until one understands the Raptures timing. There is no way one can understand the chronology of the book of Revelation until one gets the Pre Trib Rapture right. I guess I shouldn't care, I have splints in my chest, Diabetes, I just had my prostrate taken out with a part of my bladder and my 12 year old dog couldn't breath for like 3 minutes tonight and was falling down. So I should just let it pass, but it grates on me to see this happening. But I guess I should understand, Satan desires to confuse us on whats coming, so hes doing what he does best, spreading untruths to keep us in the dark on things, nothings really changed. 

I don't know if it helped {I don't want to say Good hears these kind of prayers as a certainty} but I thought I was going to have to take our dog to an Emergency Vet tonight, a 1200-1500 dollar rip off because of the late night attack. I prayed for him and in a few minutes he went from not being able to walk for 5 minutes, to running outside. Back in the early 90's my mom had cancer {they told us it was like 95 percent sure} and it was a recurrence from the 70's. I prayed in my bedroom till I felt virtue leave my body, {that's hard to explain brother, you just know it when it happens} so I went to the hospital feeling "HIGH" like we get when the Holy Spirit infills us, and with 100 percent confidence my mom had no cancer {it was benign}, my 7 brothers and sisters were all fretting and real nervous, crying etc. etc. and I was very happy and upbeat, they were like why are you not worried, I said because she has no cancer. I knew, that I knew, that I knew she was cancer free. I really wouldn't say if God would heal a pet, I have no idea, but I prayed anyway and he went from not being able to walk for 5 minutes, to running. I am happy tonight, that I am alive and my buddy is alive 

Brother you are a good friend, as are all my brothers on here. Some think I am bossy, I try not to be, but I ain't moving off what the Lord says. Now that which He hasn't given me anything on, we can all debate that, but when given something, I am just not moving, LOL. God has given me things I can't believe Hes given me lately, its like the book of Revelation, Daniel etc. has just been shown to me with such clarity. It makes me think the Rapture is very near brother. God Bless.