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Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?


Proverbs 31

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Even then, I would not agree regarding many denominations in the U.S.  The Lutheran Church does not hold to pre-trib doctrine.  Nor does the official Methodist position support it.  Those two alone, along with the RCC make up the lion's share of Christianity in the U.S.  Only those denominations that lean more Evangelical and Conservative tend to side with a pre-trib position, but in terms of actual numbers of Christians, they are a minority.  They all may side similarly in political elections, so don't confuse what get tossed around as "evangelical" by political pundits.   Bible based, conservative, evangelical churches are a minority.

Even so-called conservative,. evangelical churches are all over the map.  For instance, the Stone-Campbell aligned churches which claim to be independent churches (Christian Church, Church of Christ, etc) yet align nationally under such banners as the North American Christian Convention (NACC), while some Christians in that movement do support a pre-trib portion, it is not the primary position of the movement.  I know, I grew up in that group. My Grandfather was a pastor ordained under that banner.  As was 3 of my uncles.  I dearly love the movement for many of its positions and activities, but my holding to a pre-trib position is outside the orthodoxy of that movement.

Edited by OldCoot
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10 hours ago, The Light said:

Again, the woman is Israel. The fact that you feel a need to replace Israel with the Church isn't going to change the Word of God and His promise to Israel.
 

Agreed.  The description of the woman mirrors the Genesis 37:9-11. And that is clearly Jacob/Israel... the twelve literal tribes and not some "spiritualized" idea of the Church being that entity.

And the woman gives birth to the Messiah.  The Church never gave birth to the Messiah. That is total nonsense.   More appropriately, Mary of Israel gave conceived and gave birth to the Messiah, the head of the body, but the Body specific was conceived in Jerusalem (Israel) and has been growing in gestation until such time as it is brought forth and removed prior to the woman fleeing and being protected in the wilderness.  

That child of Revelation 12:5 is Caught Up / Harpazo / snatched away after it is brought forth. The word harpazo was never used of Messiah's return, and neither was He caught up to God and His thrown after being born

Likewise, many passages in the OT show Israel in labor and bringing forth at the start of this future period, matching the description of the woman in Revelation 12.

One has to allegorize the scripture to extremes and do some real theological gymnastics to say the woman in Revelation 12 is the Church.

Edited by OldCoot
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14 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Oh no, you have made a profound and pedagogical dissertation on apostasy through the biblical context written by the apostle Paul to the church of Thessalonians, and you have also remarked on possible conjectures or assumptions in interpreting the context, which is very serious.

So the answer to my previous response to a your previous post responding to me is yes?  I had hoped I had been wrong about what you were saying.  But sadly I guess I was correct.  

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11 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:
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Wake up! wake up! wake up!  It is midnight.  You urgently need to turn on the lamp. 

The Church is the true Israel in Christ. JESUS said:  I am the good Shepherd, and know my sheep, and I am known of mine. Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one Shepherd.

You are merely proving my point which is both the Jew and Gentile can be in the fold

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

So we see in Hosea that Gods plan was for Israel was to be in the first harvest as he saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Since they served other Gods the Gentile will be in the first harvest, Pre Tribulation rapture, before the seals are opened.

After the harvest of the Gentiles, which we can see in heaven in Rev 4, Rev 5, God turns his attention to the 12 tribes. We see that the 144,000 of the 12 tribes become the 1st fruits of the harvest. This harvest of the 12 tribes, which is guaranteed because there are 1st fruits, will take place in the pre wrath rapture. (Matt 24, Rev 6)

 

 

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11 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:
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The discussion is about the Woman Revelation 12.  You say she is Israel , and I say it is wrong,

You are mistaken.

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 the Woman is the Church of the Lord and I proved it by Scriptures through my posts.

 You did not prove it by scriptures. You have incorrectly proven it to yourself. Another poster, Old Coot gave the perfect BIBLICAL explanation The description of the woman mirrors the Genesis 37:9-11. And that is clearly Jacob/Israel... the twelve literal tribes and not some "spiritualized" idea of the Church being that entity.

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Again: I have said in my message the Woman in Rev.12 is the Church. You replied my post saying: 'The woman is Israel and not the Church. You  said more unto me: Again, the woman is Israel. The fact that you feel a need to replace Israel with the Church isn't going to change the Word of God and His promise to Israel.

The contradictions must be clarified, we cannot give place to the Devil, so I ask: 

How can the Woman be the esoteric / spiritualist / kabbalistic present-day Israel who is full of idolatries and witcheries and highly prepared to receive, and acclaim, and applaud the false and RUTHLESS messiah, AN IMPOSTER, even he the man of sin, son of perdition, a former cherub, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders? 

 

The answer is simple. Present day Israel will change after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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Oh no, the Woman is not Israel

Oh yes, the Word says the woman is Israel. It's not complicated, it's just a matter of you putting aside what you have been led to believe and accept the written Word of God.

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absolutely, actually the present-day Israel will persecute the Woman, the  Church of the Lord,  

Israel is the woman so it would not persecute itself. Israel was reborn as a nation in 1948 proving yet again that God keeps His word.

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But will be given to the Woman - to the Church of the Lord - two wings of a great eagle, that she might FLY (as prophesied Is.40:v.21 & 60:v.8) into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the FALSE MESSIAH, the Red Dragon. But the FALSE MESSIAH, an IMPOSTER, will cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Isa 40

 21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

Isa 60

Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

Here are the verses that you mentioned and they have absolutely nothing to do with the Church going to her place where she is nourished for a time, and times and half a time. It is those that flee as instructed when the abomination of desolation is set up in the nation of Israel that go to a place of protection. 

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But the earth (the earth are them which will be sealed of all the tribes of the children of Israel, an hundred and forty and four thousand) will help the Church of the LORD, and they will open their mouth in favor of the Church, and will swallow up the flood which the FALSE MESSIAH will cast out of his mouth.  Actually this will be a War, a War between the Spirit of God against the Spirit of Devil. The FALSE MESSIAH will be wrathed with the Church and went to make War with the remnant 144,000 that were sealead in their forehead, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I would say that the earth is the earth. No need to dream up an explanation of what the earth is, as the earth is the earth. It's pretty easy to get sidetracked when you go about dreaming up things. Why not accept that the earth is the earth.

You have gone about dreaming up a bunch of stuff. The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of the 12 tribes of Israel exactly like the Word says. The false messiah will not be wrathed with the Church as the Church will not be on the earth when these events occur. We can see the Church in heaven before any seals are opened. The 1st six seals are the tribulation period. 
 

 

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On 11/25/2019 at 10:16 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

 

But one of the 7 heads of this religious MONSTER of the sea will be wounded mortally. This event will occur in the South America, precisely will be located in Brazil. Then the Beast from the earth that speaks as a Dragon will give to the Beast of sea his Power, and his Seat/Throne, and great Authority. Rev. 13:v.2


 

Brazil? how do you conclude this?

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1 hour ago, Alive said:

Brazil? how do you conclude this?

I think he sees the current president of Brazil as the Antichrist? Just like we have had people claiming Obama was the Antichrist, and now trump is the antichrist

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On 11/27/2019 at 3:04 PM, Last Daze said:

It all depends on your perspective on the source of the trib and object of the trib.  The 3.5 years is unlike anything since there was a nation.  It affects believers and unbelievers unlike although in different ways.  So, yes, terminology and definitions are important.  My usage of the terms was accurate.

No passage of the Bible equates the trib to the 3.5 years or the 7 years. None. Pure presumption. NO passage of the NT speaks of a seven year period at all. 

On 11/27/2019 at 4:22 PM, iamlamad said:

What prewrath posttrib theory MISSES: 

John puts the days of GT after the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14, proven by the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven in chapter 15. 

Reply: False. John does not mention the trib after chapter 7, whereas the events of chapter 14 take place much later, after the 144,000 are taken up before the heavenly throne following the 3-1/2 years of the judgement of earthly Israel.

It is proven yet again when one understands that chapters 4 & 5 set the timing of the first seals to 32 AD when Jesus ascended. 

Reply: False again, for numerous reasons, not the least of which is that the Crucifixion Passover could not have taken place in 32 AD simply on calendrical grounds.

It is proven yet again when one understands that the 5th seal is still church age and for the martyrs of the church age.

Reply: True; the fifth seal marks the end of the tribulation of the Church, followed by its rapture at the 6th seal.

Thank God, you have the rapture at the 6th seal right.

Reply: Thank God, you have the rapture at the 6th seal right.

 

On 11/27/2019 at 4:24 PM, iamlamad said:

Agreed, classic prewrath thought as taught by Rosenthal and Van Kampen (the originators) is "post trib" because their errors caused them to place the days of GT in the first 5 seals, when John places those days after chapter 14.

They are the originators of "classic pre-wrath," but not the originators of pre-wrath's fundamentals. They were correct in placing the trib in the days of the first 5 seals, but in error when they tried to force the 3.5 and 7 years into the trib, which periods have nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with Israel.

On 11/27/2019 at 5:11 PM, dhchristian said:

No, they are vastly different. The Post tribulation rapture theory places the rapture at the end of the final week. Pre Wrath does not do this. We see the rapture at about the midpoint of the final week. This is a rude statement and shows a lack of understanding of the one's you are discussing this with, and the various positions involved.  

See the above statement.

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Just now, WilliamL said:

They are the originators of "classic pre-wrath," but not the originators of pre-wrath's fundamentals. They were correct in placing the trib in the days of the first 5 seals, but in error when they tried to force the 3.5 and 7 years into the trib, which periods have nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with Israel.

On 11/27/2019 at 7:11 PM, dhchristian said:

No, they are vastly different. The Post tribulation rapture theory places the rapture at the end of the final week. Pre Wrath does not do this. We see the rapture at about the midpoint of the final week. This is a rude statement and shows a lack of understanding of the one's you are discussing this with, and the various positions involved.  

See the above statement.

Why address the Book of revelation to the church then, if we have no part in it? Why is Israel barely mentioned therein? (Do a search on Israel, temple etc. and you will find this is true, Only the 144k are mentioned as being Israel directly, and the earthly temple in chapter 11) Who are the saints? (They are around till chapter 14 on the earth, and called to endure, Endurance of the saints is a New Testament church Doctrine).

If You want to make the claims you do, you have to address these contradictions to your theory. 

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3 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Why address the Book of revelation to the church then, if we have no part in it? Why is Israel barely mentioned therein? (Do a search on Israel, temple etc. and you will find this is true, Only the 144k are mentioned as being Israel directly, and the earthly temple in chapter 11) Who are the saints? (They are around till chapter 14 on the earth, and called to endure, Endurance of the saints is a New Testament church Doctrine).

"No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22.

There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

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