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Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?


Proverbs 31

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8 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

No passage of the Bible equates the trib to the 3.5 years or the 7 years. None. Pure presumption. NO passage of the NT speaks of a seven year period at all. 

You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  Both Daniel and Jesus refer to the same point in time in these passages:

  • For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
  • And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

There can't be two different times of tribulation that are the worst ever.  These have to be referring to the same period in time.  Daniel tells us how long it lasts.

  • I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.  Daniel 12:7

That is the same time duration that is given in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7 in describing the war against the saints.

Also during this time, the plagues will be affecting those utilize the mark and worship the image.  That's what makes it the worst since the beginning of the world, worse than the flood.  Everyone around the world will be affected during the time frame that Daniel gave albeit in different ways.  Satan et.al. will be waging war against the saints and the plagues will bring judgment on those who align themselves with him.

So, it depends whose side you're on as to how the 3.5 year tribulation of tribulation will affect you.  The great tribulation against the saints (5th seal) is a small subset of the 3.5 years that takes place at its beginning.  The war against the saints lasts the full 3.5 years with the greatest intensity being at the beginning.

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3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  Both Daniel and Jesus refer to the same point in time in these passages:

  • For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
  • And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

There can't be two different times of tribulation that are the worst ever.  These have to be referring to the same period in time.  Daniel tells us how long it lasts.

  • I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.  Daniel 12:7

That is the same time duration that is given in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7 in describing the war against the saints.

Yes, Matthew 24:21 = Daniel 12:1. I've always said that. Speaking specifically of the time of trouble such as never was. NOT about the judgment of Daniel's people, however. Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people.

Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ.

The reason why the Great Trib will be so fearful is that it will be the total collapse of civilization as we know it, resulting in maga-death from starvation, internecine conflict, and plague. But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.

 

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52 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ.

I see saints as saints regardless of which covenant they fall under.  Faith is the common denominator.  The Lamb's wife includes OT saints as well as NT saints according to Revelation 21:9-14.

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18 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I see saints as saints regardless of which covenant they fall under.  Faith is the common denominator.  The Lamb's wife includes OT saints as well as NT saints according to Revelation 21:9-14.

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.

The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times.

But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib.

Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.

 

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2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.

The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times.

But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib.

Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.

 

We'll see how it all works out.

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4 hours ago, WilliamL said:
4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Why address the Book of revelation to the church then, if we have no part in it? Why is Israel barely mentioned therein? (Do a search on Israel, temple etc. and you will find this is true, Only the 144k are mentioned as being Israel directly, and the earthly temple in chapter 11) Who are the saints? (They are around till chapter 14 on the earth, and called to endure, Endurance of the saints is a New Testament church Doctrine).

"No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22.

There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

No where in the Old testament are the saints called to endure. Yet there the saints are, on earth all the way to chapter 14. Here is the List of them. (Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4, 11:18, 13:7-10, 14:12.)

The saints are also mentioned in Rev. 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9, But none of these mention endurance, and are primarily looking back at the blood of the saints in relation to judgment. So clearly there is a dividing line there. Now If Israel are the saints in revelation, then their restoration would take place at the beginning of the final week, But every prophecy in the Old testament tells us they will drink of the cup of the Wrath of God until Drunk, before the LORD spares them. Meaning that their restoration and sainthood will not happen until some time in the middle to end of the week. So these saints that are there on earth till chapter 14 are from the church. They are not the 144k because they are distinct from the saints as chapter 14 indicates, and the 144k are the remnant of Israel. The restoration of Israel cannot begin UNTIL the False messiah is destroyed, up until that point many Jewish people will be fooled by him and signs and wonders done to promote him as the messiah.

The earthly temple is mentioned one time in Revelation 11:1-2, and it is measured (By John) but not the outer court which is trampled by the gentiles for forty 2 months. Whether this is a temple or a tabernacle is TBD as some passages in the OT speak of the Tabernacle of David being raised up Not the temple of Solomon, so I will concede that much, But one thing I know is this is an earthly temple or tabernacle of some sort, and not the heavenly one mentioned in the seventh Trumpet at the end of chapter 11.

The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

I Agree with the last statement in the above sentence. I do not see the trumpets as judgment on Israel, so please explain where you get this? The Church has dealt with all of the first 5 seals throughout their history, The sixth and the seventh happen at around the mid-trib period of the final week. Why? Because the fulness of the gentiles must come in (Romans 11:25) When that happens, the restoration of Israel can begin, and that cannot happen until the number is fulfilled that must be fulfilled during the fifth seal.

Here is how I see it. The church is in Labor pains already, and has been throughout church history. John equates himself with this tribulation, in Rev. 1:9. The Great tribulation is the first half of the final week, and this is the actual birth process. When the child is Born, there is Joy, which is the Sixth seal. This matches the fall feasts exactly. Elul1 begins 40 days of mourning, at Rosh Hashanah the 10 days of great mourning (10 days of Awe) begins. At Yom Kippur there is the Birth, as the sins are atoned for and a new creation officially begins. This then is followed by a season of Joy, the feast of Tabernacles, which is also known as the "Wedding feast". Notice, there are 3 and half days between the end of Yom Kippur, and the beginning of (Erev) Sukkot. The fall feasts are like the Calendar of the end times. The Church is giving birth... Birth to whom? The Glorified sons of God.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19)

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Romans 8:22-25)

 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ( 1 cor. 15:51-52)

 

 

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20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.

The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times.

But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib.

Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.

 

Sorry, but this is just not what my bible says. The "Rapture" is the CHURCH being caught up - a mostly Gentile church.  It is going to take place:

When the final martyr of the church age has been murdered.  (See Seal 5)

When the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in.  (Rom. 11:25)

WHEN will Paul's rapture take place? Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before wrath. We see God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, so Paul's rapture (the rapture of the Gentile church of today) will be just before the 6th seal and Day of the Lord. This is plain in scripture.  It is almost impossible to see with thick preconceived glasses.

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ  WHICH return? He is coming twice more. It is impossible to squeeze two scriptural comings into one - although SO MANY try. Paul tells us He is coming NEXT FOR the Gentile church (1 Thes 4 & 5). He will then come WITH the Gentile church as shown in Rev. 19, over 7 years later.

there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.  This will be His THIRD coming; coming WITH the Gentile church what was raptured 7 years before.  I also disagree with this concept: There is no "rapture" in Rev. 19. If I have missed it, please point it out. He is coming to Armageddon, to fight, not to catch people up. 

The latter will not go up in the Rapture  There will be a gathering of the Jews and Hebrews, as told in Matthew 24, but no rapture. All the righteous Jews and Hebrews NOT a part of the Body of Christ (the church) will remain on earth in natural bodies as a part of the Mellennial Kingdom of Christ. AGain, if I have missed a scripture where Jews are raptured, so me.   I do believe the 144,000 will be caught up, but there is no verses telling us that: only John showing them in heaven in chapter 14. 

Pre-wrath, but post-trib.  Pre wrath is scriptural, post trib is not. 

What CAUSES "the trib?"  What do you mean by "the trib?" Let's narrow it down to the days of GREAT tribulation Jesus spoke of. WHEN will these days be in the book of revelation? 

First, lets ask what CAUSES those days of GT? John tells us: forcing people too bow to an image, and forcing people to  receive a mark, when they KNOW taking that mark will doom them to fire and brimstone forever and ever.  Readers, can you SEE this? GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to receive this mark, for they cannot buy or sell without it! Without much doubt, the only drinkable water will be found in stores, so people will be VERY THIRSTY.  These things are what will cause the days of GT. So the question is, WHEN or WHERE in Revelation?

First, Jesus said the days of GT would come AFTER the abomination. Jesus also told people to FLEE when they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of MUST COME after Rev. 12:6. But, John does not tell us about the mark and the image until chapter 13, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of must come after chapter 13!

But, God does not give His warning about taking the mark until chapter 14, so we can KNOW (no Doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of cannot come until AFTER the warning in chapter 14. How amazing then, we see the beheaded (those who refuse the mark) BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.   How then can anyone imagine days of GT in the seals? Well, it is only imagination, not scripture.

For the readers: Perhaps you don't know how this "prewrath posttrib' theory got started. Mr. Van Kampen called up Mr. Rosenthal all excited and said, "I have found it!" He imagined he had found a secret all others had missed. So what was it he found? Well, he put two scriptures together (as if they were related) and suddenly a new theory emerged! Matthew 24 tells us of cosmic signs in the sun and moon that come AFTER the days of GT. But in Joel 2, cosmic signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the day of the Lord. The order, then, as Van Kampen perceived it, would be Days of GT FIRST, THEN cosmic signs in the sun and moon, and THEN the Day of the Lord.  

Therefore, since he knew the start of the Day of the Lord was at the 6th seal, and the cosmic signs were there to prove it, the days of GT MUST BE before the 6th seal. 

So what is the problem with this theory? Just about everything. Neither of these men understood that these cosmic signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE: first for the sign of the Day of the Lord, (Joel 2 and Rev. 6) and then again for the sign of His coming (Joel 3 and Matthew 24.) We have then TWO different signs (the really are different) for TWO different events and at TWO different times - over 7 years apart.

WHY are they different signs? For the 6th seal signs, the moon is red as seen at a lunar eclipse, and the sun black as seen in a solar eclipse. In other words, both the sun and the moon are SEEN (else how would anyone know the color?)  In comparison, the signs AFTER the days of GT are very simple, neither the sun or the moon can be seen. Not even the stars can be seen. It  is total darkness - yes, even at 12 noon, total darkness. THAT is the sign of Christ's coming as seen in Rev. 19.

What am I saying? The rapture will CERTAINLY be prewrath, but it is also going to be pretrib or pre 70th week.

Edited by iamlamad
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21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, Matthew 24:21 = Daniel 12:1. I've always said that. Speaking specifically of the time of trouble such as never was. NOT about the judgment of Daniel's people, however. Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people.

Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ.

The reason why the Great Trib will be so fearful is that it will be the total collapse of civilization as we know it, resulting in maga-death from starvation, internecine conflict, and plague. But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.

 

Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people.

What exactly do you mean by "the trib.." I find Jesus saying:

Matthew 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

To pinpoint what He was talking about He mentioned "tribulation here:

21 For then shall be great tribulation...

WHEN is "then? It is after the abomination event that will divide the week.   We know that during the church age there is "tribulation," but not any specific time. John said that he was in "the tribulation," in Rev. 1:9 (most English translations leave out "the" but it is there in all the Greek manuscripts.)

It seems much of the church world associate "the tribulation" with "the 70th week." Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of an event called the abomination of desolation. Daniel tells us such an event will divide the week. He backs that up with two times mentioning "time, times, and half of time" or 3.5 years. John backs this half week up 5 more times, in days, in months and in years.  Therefore, we can be ABSOLUTELY SURE that there will be a week of 7 years, and two half weeks of 3.5 years.  Another verse calls this time "Jacob's trouble." We know Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved. 

Therefore I cannot understand why anyone would make such a statement: "Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people."  Can you show us any kind of special "tribulation" in Revelation that is NOT INSIDE the 70th week of Daniel? Please, show us scripture.  

I agree, the 70th week is for Daniel's people. But reading the events of the 70th week it seems God uses the SAME PERIOD OF TIME to judge the world.

But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.  I could not DISagree more. A statement like this totally ignores John's chronology. There is some LITTLE time after the days of GT are shortened when angels pour out the bowls of God's wrath - some little time before the end of the week and then a little more before Jesus returns and captures the Beast and False Prophet.  But when Jesus pours out the bowls, the beast's kingdom is pretty must FINISHED. He and his armies are rendered helpless. The ONLY think he will accomplish is to kill the two witnesses and perhaps send gifts. There is going to be a great earthquake to end the 70th week - an earthquake so great the mountains disappear, and all the cities of the world are destroyed. 

Thinking out loud:  When the angel army of 200 million kill 1/3 of earth's population, this MUST be world wide, because Jews and Hebrews don't make up 1/3 of the population. 

I disagree with much of your post.

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22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22.

There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

Sorry, but your blog is probably no different than your posts here. Since John and Paul mention a temple, it is up to YOU to prove it is NOT an earthly temple. It is where the man of sin is going to declare he is God. 

The Church is judged first during the Seals   This is pure speculation and not at all the intent of the Author. NO judgment comes up to seal 5, for they are crying out wondering WHEN Judgment is coming. In fact, God's judgment BEGINS with the 6th seal. It is the START of judgment and the START of the Day of the Lord. Since the 6th seal starts wrath, the church MUST BE taken out before the 6th seal. Therefore, the saints mentioned in Revelation after the 6th seal will be NEW believers (Gentile or Jew) and the Jews who will eventually believe in Him. The exception will be the 144,000 firstfruits. 

Israel is judged second during the trumpets  Sorry but all of Israel does not make up 1/3 of the earth. So the judgment of the 6th trumpet must be worldwide. 

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I concur with a lot of what you are saying in your posts, iamlamad.  Maybe not every minute detail, but in general.  The "church" by definition is those who have trusted Yeshua, been justified, and have passed from death to life.  There is no reason to judge them.  The church does not need to be purified.  The church has been bought and paid for by the redemption of the Messiah.  Now there are those in the churches as it pertains to congregations that are not of the "church".    

It becomes a study of what the ekklesia/church is.  And it certainly is not buildings or congregations.  And the Messiah knows who is His and who is not.....

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

John 6:29 (NKJV) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Those that belong to Him, He will gather to be with Him.  No judgement needed.

Romans 8:1-2 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law [ penalty ] of sin and death.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

And this one, many on these types of forums should really heed....

1 John 3:14 (NKJV) We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Loving the brethren does include trying to proclaim truth, at least healthy discourse, but when it gets into food fight and defamation and slander is thrown around, well, that is not loving the brethren.   I am stating this as a general theme for everyone.   No one person in particular.  We all have screwed up at one time or another in this regard.  We need to stay vigilant.

Shalom!

Cliff

Edited by OldCoot
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