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Proverbs 31

Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

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15 hours ago, dhchristian said:

The earthly temple is mentioned one time in Revelation 11:1-2, and it is measured (By John) but not the outer court which is trampled by the gentiles for forty 2 months.

What will be then the scenarios of Jerusalem in that time?

In fact the pseudo messiah will be manifesting himself in the holy city in short future. The supposed messiah, called Eliyahu, born in Jerusalem, living in the holy city for decades (this detail is very important to be known to everyone here of course), this MAN as soon as he manifest himself as a messiah in the days to come, he will begin to make signs and lying wonders. The esoteric / spiritist / kabbalistic messiah of the Jews will do great signs and wonders, even will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, deceiving them that dwell on the earth by the miracles which he has power to do. 

All kind of comunications, the midea, will comment the signs and lying wonders and will show to the whole world, mainly the chanels of television, in the other hand Ministries and Ministers of all denominations and sects, and all religious leaders of all religious system that exist, they will preach at the four corners of the earth Christ is in Jerusalem.  Then the whole world will hear by/through the leaders of the evangelical Churches and non evengelic too, that he is the Christ or messiah.   

The third scenario in Jerusalem, the holy city, will be of human upheaval, the environment in the holy city will be of extreme convulsion, multitudes of people and kindreds and tongues and nations will travel to Jerusalem, a strong tourist movements from all nations, mainly religious tourism from all religions and evangelical churches of all denominations and sects will travel to Jerusalem, multitudes will be circling in holy city. Even the Pope will meet the false messiah in the midst of a great human mass of religious people, a strong religious movements towards Jerusalem.
These will be the scenarios in Jerusalem during 42 months as soon as manifest the false messiah in Israel, enthroned in Jerusalem, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt.Thus will fulfil literally what is written in Revelation 11 and 13

Rev.11:v.2 - the court which is without the temple leave out...it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
See, in paralel with the scenarios above, the true Christians will preach against these satanic movements, the environment on the earth will be a spiritual and religious War and one of the seven heads of the Beast of sea -the Papacy and the woman which rides upon him - will be wounded to death. 

Then the pseudo messiah will make a deal with the Pope to build an universal religious Empire, and he will give to the Pope his Power, and his Throne and great Authority, then the deadly wound of the Papacy will be healed and all the World will be wondered after the Pope, called or nicknamed Paulus VII, seated on the throne of the false messiah in the holy city.

And the peoples of the earth included the Jewish people guided by the pseudo messiah, called Eliyahu, they will worship the pseudo messiah which gave power unto the Pope, and also they will worship the Pope, saying, Who is like unto the Pope? who is able to make war with him? Then, face to the environment extremely favorable, the pseudo messiah will make a deal with the Pope to build an universal Empire, a religious Empire, atually an anti-JESUS Empire or AntiChrist's Empire, and according Scriptures who will the FIRST to rule this satanic Empire for 42 months will be the Pope, as it is prophesied in Revelation 13:v.5. (Pope Paulus VII)    

Then will be given unto the Pope Paulus VII a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and also will be given power unto him to continue with his blasphemy for forty and two months (Rev.13:v.5) and he will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name-JESUS-, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heavenly places in Christ.
And will be given unto the Pope Paulus VII to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power will be given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations, all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. 

Rev. 13:v.9-10 say: 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the PATIENCE AND THE FAITH OF THE SAINTS.

But the worst of all, as soon as ends the FIRST period of 42 months of the Antichrist's Empire, ruled by the Pope Paulus VII, afterwards will assume the RUTHLESS false messiah, and he will rule the Antichrist's Empire for 1.290 days (Dan.12:v.11), then will be established the Abomination of Desolation, the end of the Dispensation is arrived, yeah, this will be the worst of all precedent things as they are described in Revelation 13:v.11-18, but this is for another chapter and a new post.  

Among the evangelical people of all denominations will be divisions, they will be hated of all nations for JESUS name's sake, among the believers many will be offended and will betray one another, and will hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise in the churches and will deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan; 12:v.12

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Edited by Oseas Ramos de Siqueira
God is Truth. The Word is God.

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On 12/1/2019 at 2:48 PM, Alive said:

Brazil? how do you conclude this?

This event will occur in the South America, precisely will be located in Brazil because is the main country within South America, that is one of the 7 heads of the Beast.

How do I conclude this?  Revelation 17:v.7-10

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20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.

The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times.

But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib.

Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.


Sorry, but this is just not what my bible says. The "Rapture" is the CHURCH being caught up - a mostly Gentile church.  It is going to take place:

When the final martyr of the church age has been murdered.  (See Seal 5)

When the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in.  (Rom. 11:25)

WHEN will Paul's rapture take place? Paul tells us in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture will come JUST before wrath. We see God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal, so Paul's rapture (the rapture of the Gentile church of today) will be just before the 6th seal and Day of the Lord. This is plain in scripture.  It is almost impossible to see with thick preconceived glasses.

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ  WHICH return? He is coming twice more. It is impossible to squeeze two scriptural comings into one - although SO MANY try. Paul tells us He is coming NEXT FOR the Gentile church (1 Thes 4 & 5). He will then come WITH the Gentile church as shown in Rev. 19, over 7 years later.

there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.  This will be His THIRD coming; coming WITH the Gentile church what was raptured 7 years before.  I also disagree with this concept: There is no "rapture" in Rev. 19. If I have missed it, please point it out. He is coming to Armageddon, to fight, not to catch people up. 

The latter will not go up in the Rapture  There will be a gathering of the Jews and Hebrews, as told in Matthew 24, but no rapture. All the righteous Jews and Hebrews NOT a part of the Body of Christ (the church) will remain on earth in natural bodies as a part of the Mellennial Kingdom of Christ. AGain, if I have missed a scripture where Jews are raptured, so me.   I do believe the 144,000 will be caught up, but there is no verses telling us that: only John showing them in heaven in chapter 14. 

Pre-wrath, but post-trib.  Pre wrath is scriptural, post trib is not. 

What CAUSES "the trib?"  What do you mean by "the trib?" Let's narrow it down to the days of GREAT tribulation Jesus spoke of. WHEN will these days be in the book of revelation? 

First, lets ask what CAUSES those days of GT? John tells us: forcing people too bow to an image, and forcing people to  receive a mark, when they KNOW taking that mark will doom them to fire and brimstone forever and ever.  Readers, can you SEE this? GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to receive this mark, for they cannot buy or sell without it! Without much doubt, the only drinkable water will be found in stores, so people will be VERY THIRSTY.  These things are what will cause the days of GT. So the question is, WHEN or WHERE in Revelation?

First, Jesus said the days of GT would come AFTER the abomination. Jesus also told people to FLEE when they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of MUST COME after Rev. 12:6. But, John does not tell us about the mark and the image until chapter 13, so we can KNOW (no doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of must come after chapter 13!

But, God does not give His warning about taking the mark until chapter 14, so we can KNOW (no Doubt at all) that the days of GT Jesus spoke of cannot come until AFTER the warning in chapter 14. How amazing then, we see the beheaded (those who refuse the mark) BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15.   How then can anyone imagine days of GT in the seals? Well, it is only imagination, not scripture.

For the readers: Perhaps you don't know how this "prewrath posttrib' theory got started. Mr. Van Kampen called up Mr. Rosenthal all excited and said, "I have found it!" He imagined he had found a secret all others had missed. So what was it he found? Well, he put two scriptures together (as if they were related) and suddenly a new theory emerged! Matthew 24 tells us of cosmic signs in the sun and moon that come AFTER the days of GT. But in Joel 2, cosmic signs in the sun and moon come BEFORE the day of the Lord. The order, then, as Van Kampen perceived it, would be Days of GT FIRST, THEN cosmic signs in the sun and moon, and THEN the Day of the Lord.  

Therefore, since he knew the start of the Day of the Lord was at the 6th seal, and the cosmic signs were there to prove it, the days of GT MUST BE before the 6th seal. 

So what is the problem with this theory? Just about everything. Neither of these men understood that these cosmic signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE: first for the sign of the Day of the Lord, (Joel 2 and Rev. 6) and then again for the sign of His coming (Joel 3 and Matthew 24.) We have then TWO different signs (the really are different) for TWO different events and at TWO different times - over 7 years apart.

WHY are they different signs? For the 6th seal signs, the moon is red as seen at a lunar eclipse, and the sun black as seen in a solar eclipse. In other words, both the sun and the moon are SEEN (else how would anyone know the color?)  In comparison, the signs AFTER the days of GT are very simple, neither the sun or the moon can be seen. Not even the stars can be seen. It  is total darkness - yes, even at 12 noon, total darkness. THAT is the sign of Christ's coming as seen in Rev. 19.

What am I saying? The rapture will CERTAINLY be prewrath, but it is also going to be pretrib or pre 70th week.

Edited by iamlamad

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21 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, Matthew 24:21 = Daniel 12:1. I've always said that. Speaking specifically of the time of trouble such as never was. NOT about the judgment of Daniel's people, however. Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people.

Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ.

The reason why the Great Trib will be so fearful is that it will be the total collapse of civilization as we know it, resulting in maga-death from starvation, internecine conflict, and plague. But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.


Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people.

What exactly do you mean by "the trib.." I find Jesus saying:

Matthew 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

To pinpoint what He was talking about He mentioned "tribulation here:

21 For then shall be great tribulation...

WHEN is "then? It is after the abomination event that will divide the week.   We know that during the church age there is "tribulation," but not any specific time. John said that he was in "the tribulation," in Rev. 1:9 (most English translations leave out "the" but it is there in all the Greek manuscripts.)

It seems much of the church world associate "the tribulation" with "the 70th week." Both Daniel and Jesus spoke of an event called the abomination of desolation. Daniel tells us such an event will divide the week. He backs that up with two times mentioning "time, times, and half of time" or 3.5 years. John backs this half week up 5 more times, in days, in months and in years.  Therefore, we can be ABSOLUTELY SURE that there will be a week of 7 years, and two half weeks of 3.5 years.  Another verse calls this time "Jacob's trouble." We know Jacob had to work an extra 7 years for the woman he loved. 

Therefore I cannot understand why anyone would make such a statement: "Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people."  Can you show us any kind of special "tribulation" in Revelation that is NOT INSIDE the 70th week of Daniel? Please, show us scripture.  

I agree, the 70th week is for Daniel's people. But reading the events of the 70th week it seems God uses the SAME PERIOD OF TIME to judge the world.

But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.  I could not DISagree more. A statement like this totally ignores John's chronology. There is some LITTLE time after the days of GT are shortened when angels pour out the bowls of God's wrath - some little time before the end of the week and then a little more before Jesus returns and captures the Beast and False Prophet.  But when Jesus pours out the bowls, the beast's kingdom is pretty must FINISHED. He and his armies are rendered helpless. The ONLY think he will accomplish is to kill the two witnesses and perhaps send gifts. There is going to be a great earthquake to end the 70th week - an earthquake so great the mountains disappear, and all the cities of the world are destroyed. 

Thinking out loud:  When the angel army of 200 million kill 1/3 of earth's population, this MUST be world wide, because Jews and Hebrews don't make up 1/3 of the population. 

I disagree with much of your post.

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22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

"No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22.

There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

Sorry, but your blog is probably no different than your posts here. Since John and Paul mention a temple, it is up to YOU to prove it is NOT an earthly temple. It is where the man of sin is going to declare he is God. 

The Church is judged first during the Seals   This is pure speculation and not at all the intent of the Author. NO judgment comes up to seal 5, for they are crying out wondering WHEN Judgment is coming. In fact, God's judgment BEGINS with the 6th seal. It is the START of judgment and the START of the Day of the Lord. Since the 6th seal starts wrath, the church MUST BE taken out before the 6th seal. Therefore, the saints mentioned in Revelation after the 6th seal will be NEW believers (Gentile or Jew) and the Jews who will eventually believe in Him. The exception will be the 144,000 firstfruits. 

Israel is judged second during the trumpets  Sorry but all of Israel does not make up 1/3 of the earth. So the judgment of the 6th trumpet must be worldwide. 

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I concur with a lot of what you are saying in your posts, iamlamad.  Maybe not every minute detail, but in general.  The "church" by definition is those who have trusted Yeshua, been justified, and have passed from death to life.  There is no reason to judge them.  The church does not need to be purified.  The church has been bought and paid for by the redemption of the Messiah.  Now there are those in the churches as it pertains to congregations that are not of the "church".    

It becomes a study of what the ekklesia/church is.  And it certainly is not buildings or congregations.  And the Messiah knows who is His and who is not.....

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

John 6:29 (NKJV) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Those that belong to Him, He will gather to be with Him.  No judgement needed.

Romans 8:1-2 (NKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law [ penalty ] of sin and death.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

And this one, many on these types of forums should really heed....

1 John 3:14 (NKJV) We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Loving the brethren does include trying to proclaim truth, at least healthy discourse, but when it gets into food fight and defamation and slander is thrown around, well, that is not loving the brethren.   I am stating this as a general theme for everyone.   No one person in particular.  We all have screwed up at one time or another in this regard.  We need to stay vigilant.



Edited by OldCoot
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Praise the Lord!

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