appy Posted November 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.62 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2019 21 hours ago, Nadjeschda said: Especially the last sentence is not fare from what I mean: If you have no empathy you usually have no desire for an universal moral and a god who demands an universal moral could only scare you. And can you understand and value Jesus sacrifice if you are a person whithout empathy? If you can't understand what Jesus did for us, can you love him? If you can not love him can you than become a Christian? This are no easy questions, I don t expect an answer because I don't know it myslelf. But my instinct would be that it could be difficult to be accepted by Jesus under this conditions. Psychopathy is not defined as a health problem yet, but as a personality disorder. Someone who has a psychical illness suffer from it, but the psychopath does not suffer from his disorder, it is the others that do The first three chapters of the book of Romans says that the knowing about God, righteousness and the coming judgment is knowledge and is indeed a fact, that resides in every person's conscience (heart and mind). It is not based on feelings or emotion, but knowledge from God, Himself. The bible says that this knowledge has been written in every human's heart and mind so no one has an excuse. All humans are capable of committing all sorts of acts that are clearly labeled in the bible as sin. Doesn't matter if a person has empathy or lacks empathy; for whatever act or deed that is morally or civilly wrong is still sin, and each person is still morally accountable to God for them; because God's laws of right and wrong are written in every person's heart. The bible says that everyone will be judged according to what they have done. The bible says ALL have sinned, all have fallen short of God's grace. No one is beyond the reach of God’s grace. For God is fully able to make himself known and the knowledge of salvation to all even if such person's demonstrate a lack of conscience or empathy. The bible is very clear that belief is the requirement for salvation by ALL peoples, A person must come to the point that he or she excepts the truth that there is a living God. In other words, believe. Must also come to the truth of his/her spiritual condition, followed by the truth that he or she must also experience repentance (change one's mind and attitude towards sin and turn to God). In summary, a lack of empathy or conscience will NOT give people a free pass into heaven. They too must come to God through faith and trust in His son Jesus. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted November 28, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.58 Reputation: 9,010 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted November 28, 2019 I don't believe there is such a thing as an atheist---so that belief informs my decisions regarding 'them'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted November 28, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.58 Reputation: 9,010 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted November 28, 2019 I once had a discussion with an atheist who is a scientist and of that sort of mind. After a while he changed his mind and professed being an agnostic. A good first step toward that truth that God built into all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted November 28, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 475 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,556 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 7,634 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2019 God can save a atheis for sure. If the light of christ sh iui nes on him he can be saved. No one can come to God unless the holy spirit draws him. So if the holy spirit draws him guess what. Paul did not believe jesus was the son of God. But the light of christ came upon him so strong he loss his eye sight. Then he repented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted November 28, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 17 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,445 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,363 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted November 28, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Alive said: I don't believe there is such a thing as an atheist---so that belief informs my decisions regarding 'them'. I believe there's some truth in the old adage, "there's no atheists in a fox hole". I can't prove it but, when a non believer suddenly faces immanent sudden death; such as in military combat, a high speed head on automobile collision is just nanoseconds from occurring, etc. What would one assume flashes through their minds, what would they quickly utter? 1. Well it's been real? 2. Oh Jesus save me? Yes I agree, the knowledge of God is seeded in our soul; one has to harden their hearts or be educated in a God-less system and/or be angry with God to identify themselves as an atheist IMO. Perhaps God deals with them as Pharaoh and other biblical examples and eventually hardens their hearts. Perhaps He finally gives up on them and their self will, and turns them over to a debased mind? They rebel against righteousness, love their sin, and don't want to believe and be held accountable to absolute truth. When I look at our government and society [and globally], many politicians and laws passed calling evil good, and good evil in this present age today. I see the principalities and powers in high places at work, and people being turned over to a debauched and debased mind, void of morals and absolute truths. Edited November 28, 2019 by Dennis1209 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted November 28, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.58 Reputation: 9,010 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted November 28, 2019 8 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said: I believe there's some truth in the old adage, "there's no atheists in a fox hole". I can't prove it but, when a non believer suddenly faces immanent sudden death; such as in military combat, a high speed head on automobile collision is just nanoseconds from occurring, etc. What would one assume flashes through their minds, what would they quickly utter? 1. Well it's been real? 2. Oh Jesus save me? Yes I agree, the knowledge of God is seeded in our soul; one has to harden their hearts or be educated in a God-less system and/or be angry with God to identify themselves as an atheist IMO. Perhaps God deals with them as Pharaoh and other biblical examples and eventually hardens their hearts. Perhaps He finally gives up on them and their self will, and turns them over to a debased mind? They rebel against righteousness, love their sin, and don't want to believe and be held accountable to absolute truth. When I look at our government and society [and globally], many politicians and laws passed calling evil good, and good evil in this present age today. I see the principalities and powers in high places at work, and people being turned over to a debauched and debased mind, void of morals and absolute truths. Yup---and I also think that for many it is a very simple dynamic. They enjoy sin and to admit to God, they are faced squarely with sin as sin and not simply personal choices. For many in our culture, it is throwing out the baby with the bath water when they see how so many that profess Christ are hypocrites. I know many individuals who fit this. They will confess that they know God exists and some that even agree that Jesus is the Christ, but they reject anything anywhere close to 'religion'. I have had discussions about this and attempted to explain the distinctions. This is one reason why I suspect we will be very surprised to see just who is 'in Christ' in the end. The Lord is gracious and I don't believe He makes it more difficult than needs be. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadjeschda Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 107 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 1, 2019 On 11/28/2019 at 1:09 PM, DustyRoad said: Hi @Nadjeschda! It's awesome to meet someone from Germany on the forum. I lived in Germany twice: during the mid 1980's as a teenager in Gartringen (sorry, no idea how to slap umlauts over the "a") and then again as a solider during the Gulf War. The second time around I was in farm country at a NATO installation not far from the town of Kircheimbolanden. Interesting side note: it's been ages since I was exposed to Deutsch so of course I've lost whatever fluency I acquired while I was living in your country. Not to say I was fluent to begin with but I understood enough to get by. However, a few years ago I found myself seated close to some folks speaking Deutsch (they were from Munchen) and I was able to follow the gist of their conversation. Some functional understanding of German continues to lurk between my ears somewhere! There are cultural and linguistic hurdles that you and my fellow Americans ought to keep in mind when we discuss this topic. I was exposed to just enough regional and cultural idioms during my time in Germany (I didn't spend my time hanging around bases or going to tourist traps... I made German friends!) to appreciate the world of difference between figures of speech Americans are accustomed to and how the idioms/euphemisms you're familiar with translate into our vernacular... The results can be amusing (or tragic) so care must be taken since they sound exotic to our sensibilities … just like ours strike you. I think I'm following what you have to say well enough and so I think we ought be reluctant to hammer out molds which others may fall neatly into my friend. I can only point to my own example not as a refutation to your opinion Nadjeschda but rather as something for you consider with regard to this topic. I was an atheist when God saved my life... so we can never know the fate of anyone with certainty unless the Spirit of God illuminates us with the light of Truth. I do however agree wholeheartedly with the fruitlessness of arguing with atheists unless, of course, this is something God would have us do. It would have been a waste of your time to argue with me when I was lost Nadjeschda and besides, how could you possibly know that at some point in the future God would save me from myself? Sorry, I ended this post too soon since I forgot to tell you about the atheist I live with. She was born and raised in a part of the United States known as the "Bible Belt" and in the interest of keeping things short and to the point, she was abused by her Christian kin. She's entirely bitter and occasionally engages in blasphemy which quite frankly tests my resolve (I have to pray afterward since all I want to do is hit the road...) and so this is how Jesus Christ teaches me how to love my neighbor each and every day. She was abandoned by her Christian relatives --- yes, even her own children! --- to face cancer on her own. Should I withhold anything from this poor soul in her time of need? She's an atheist who blasphemes! I know the answer to this question, which is absolutely not. I'm remaining by her side for as long as God wants me there. This is where the Lord led me: to her! How do I know that she's saved even though she's a militant atheist, Nadjeschda? Faith! I remember what God did for me... he's doing the same for her. So there is some small chance that we have met somewhere My father was in world war two as a child soldier and he immediately got a saxophone to play US music after the US army ended the Nazi madness. Of course atheists can be saved I was myself one. What I mean here is a person which combines two things beeing an atheist AND beeing psychopathic. Search „iceman“ on YouTube as an example. I do not know if atheism increases one’s psychopathic traits or people with psychopathic traits are attracted to atheism but they are more common there, they love it to hurt the feelings of others and they can seriously hurt you if you try to convert them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadjeschda Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 107 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 1, 2019 On 11/28/2019 at 1:06 PM, appy said: The first three chapters of the book of Romans says that the knowing about God, righteousness and the coming judgment is knowledge and is indeed a fact, that resides in every person's conscience (heart and mind). It is not based on feelings or emotion, but knowledge from God, Himself. The bible says that this knowledge has been written in every human's heart and mind so no one has an excuse. All humans are capable of committing all sorts of acts that are clearly labeled in the bible as sin. Doesn't matter if a person has empathy or lacks empathy; for whatever act or deed that is morally or civilly wrong is still sin, and each person is still morally accountable to God for them; because God's laws of right and wrong are written in every person's heart. The bible says that everyone will be judged according to what they have done. The bible says ALL have sinned, all have fallen short of God's grace. No one is beyond the reach of God’s grace. For God is fully able to make himself known and the knowledge of salvation to all even if such person's demonstrate a lack of conscience or empathy. The bible is very clear that belief is the requirement for salvation by ALL peoples, A person must come to the point that he or she excepts the truth that there is a living God. In other words, believe. Must also come to the truth of his/her spiritual condition, followed by the truth that he or she must also experience repentance (change one's mind and attitude towards sin and turn to God). In summary, a lack of empathy or conscience will NOT give people a free pass into heaven. They too must come to God through faith and trust in His son Jesus. I agree with you that a lack of empathy does not excuse evil in front of god, but we are not god. We shall not judge because we unlike god don‘t know how much evil comes out of the circumstances of a person and how much out of himself. Some Psychopaths are Psychopaths by birth it is said so this is the argument that they have no choice. And maybe it is really harder for them to avoid sin by nature than for others (evil out of circumstances). But as a child I saw a movie in which a man was accused of murder because one saw him burry a corpse. The police dug it up and found it was just a dog believing the guy was innocent. Later they dug deeper and found a human corpse (fictional story). What I want to say with this example is: just because nature gave one a certain predisposition for evil this does not mean that more evil does not can come out of oneself and out of free choice. The Realisation that only god can free my soul from evil is one of the most important to me. I don’t want to play the expert here in theology or science, but I guess that this is the problem (one corpse hiding the other) when science wants to explain evil away by making pictures of the psychopaths brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadjeschda Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 107 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 1, 2019 On 11/28/2019 at 10:34 PM, DustyRoad said: The lady reached that point before... but that was at a time when I was ostensibly an atheist along with her. She won't admit such a thing now that I follow Jesus Christ! I agree with you brother. Having "been there" myself I can tell you where I was at when I thought that I was an unbeliever: I didn't know God. My mind was filled with all manner of fleshly notions but instead of perceiving the Lord I was only tangling with the product of my own understanding. I'll describe how she arrived at the acknowledgement of agnosticism along with me, @Alive. First I should admit something: I was a terrible atheist. About the only thing I could state with confidence was my disbelief in gods … goddesses … and all of that associated claptrap (New Age, etc.). Ah, but I just couldn't go there with regard to God. I'd start off identifying myself as an atheist and finish as an agnostic! I frequented atheist circles for a time but eventually found my way to the door... they had become that which they despised the most and were oblivious to the hypocrisy. Anyway, she suddenly announced that she agreed with me... there was enough evidence to indicate that God was indeed there... but we both thought it was impossible to know for certain. Of course we were wrong. Let me guess: they had become righteous and believed things for certain that they could not proof. Next they wanted to build a group of enlightened people that want to save the world... On 11/28/2019 at 5:36 PM, Alive said: Yup---and I also think that for many it is a very simple dynamic. They enjoy sin and to admit to God, they are faced squarely with sin as sin and not simply personal choices. For many in our culture, it is throwing out the baby with the bath water when they see how so many that profess Christ are hypocrites. I know many individuals who fit this. They will confess that they know God exists and some that even agree that Jesus is the Christ, but they reject anything anywhere close to 'religion'. I have had discussions about this and attempted to explain the distinctions. This is one reason why I suspect we will be very surprised to see just who is 'in Christ' in the end. The Lord is gracious and I don't believe He makes it more difficult than needs be. I don’t know think that people give up atheism because they have become sick and have a primitive fear of death. When death is approaching than time stops in a certain sense and this somehow allows people to feel instead of just think about their life. Once their own thoughts are not so loud anymore, (because they don’t matter for much longer) they don’t over-scream the message of their heart anymore. But we are a bit of of-topic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted December 1, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.58 Reputation: 9,010 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted December 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, Nadjeschda said: Let me guess: they had become righteous and believed things for certain that they could not proof. Next they wanted to build a group of enlightened people that want to save the world... I don’t know think that people give up atheism because they have become sick and have a primitive fear of death. When death is approaching than time stops in a certain sense and this somehow allows people to feel instead of just think about their life. Once their own thoughts are not so loud anymore, (because they don’t matter for much longer) they don’t over-scream the message of their heart anymore. But we are a bit of of-topic I think perhaps you are on target. Have you wondered how many in the flash of time before falling asleep have been faced with Christ and said yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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