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I have puzzled for years over Paul's use of the phrase "under the law".  He seems to use the phrase in more than one way.  The meaning changes with the context.  Maybe a few folks here can give more clarity. 

Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”  It would seem that believers are "not under" the law that decrees death for every sin. 

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

We know that Yeshua was "born under the law" (  ).  

    Galatians 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.”

It would appear that "sons" are "not under the law". 

Why would Yeshua be born under the law of "You sin - you die"?  He was lead by the Spirit.  Unless - "the law" is used only to refer to the "first covenant" law, or maybe even to the additional Pharisaic laws. 

Or maybe Paul is saying that Yeshua was born, just like us, with mortal human nature - and IF He had sinned, then He would have died eternally.  (I know, some say He could not have sinned.  But this text suggests otherwise, if indeed "under the law" means under "the law of sin and death".  In the end, He was "made to be sin" for us.  The Father had to rescue Him from the death that resulted. 

Romans 7:22-23 “In my inmost self I dearly love God's law, but I see that acting on my body there is a different law which battles against the law in my mind. So I am brought to be a prisoner of that law of sin which lives inside my body.” (NJB)

TWO different laws in this passage.  1. God's law (which seems to be in Paul's mind)  and   2. the law of sin  (which "lives inside" Paul's "body").  I think #2 is the one we are set free from - in Christ.  #1 is "the law of the Spirit of life"

Romans 3:19 “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God.” (NAU)

Sounds like "all the world" is "under the Law" EXCEPT born again believers.  They are led by the Spirit" and are therefore "not under the law" - but what law?  What law are believers "not under" and how does that guide their behaviors?  eg resting on the Sabbath, eating "clean" foods, widows marrying their brother-in-laws, separating women during their menses to different lodgings, etc. etc. 

But those "without the law" will not be held to the same standard with those who are "under the law".   

    Romans 2:12 “For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.”

        Gentiles who did not know the Law of Sinai would still perish, because of Adam’s sin which brought all mankind under the dominion of Satan, but they would not be “judged by the law” (of Sinai).  They would not be held to that higher standard.

But Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin."   Wasn't the continual evening/morning sacrifice for "sins of ignorance".  That would mean the blood of Jesus covers all sins committed in ignorance, until such time that the person becomes aware that he has sinned against GOD. 

OK.  Anyone have some insights on this ?  I figured that Hebrew Roots folks would be the ones to ask. 

 

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Shalom my friend,

A great post and questions.  I will try to help you on this matter, but I’m not exactly an expert or anything. 

For the purposes of this discussion I will use the following terms – so it doesn’t get too confusing.

Torah: The Guiding Laws of Yahweh

Law: The Law of Sin

 

When we violate Torah, the Law of sin reigns, which brings death.  This is what it means to be “under the law”. 

It’s not that Torah is evil or sinful.  Far from it!  Rather, it’s that our transgression of it will bring consequence (in this life or the next).  In the same way, in your country you will have judicial laws to follow which aren’t necessarily evil but, if you violate them, another law comes into play – the law of enforcement. 

Through the Messiah we are freed from being “under the law” of sin, and so escape the consequences due to us.  In the same way, it’s like you violating your national judicial laws but no law enforcement sent to punish you, as a great Judge has cleared you – paying for the charges himself.

HalleluYah! What an indescribable gift which is neither deserved or could ever be earned!

What about Torah then?  Is it no longer of use?  No, that is a ridiculous notion!  We can now follow Torah by the spirit, putting death the flesh which once ruled our desires, goals and thoughts - which was always against Torah.  Now we can walk in a newness of spirit – following Torah even though we are free NOT to, but because we want to in service, gratitude and love for Him.  

Saved by grace, serve by Torah. 

But wait, isn’t this going “under the law” again!?  No, not at all.  We are dead to the Law of sin.  We were freed from being bound under the law of SIN, but not absolved from ignoring His Torah.  Neither Messiah, Paul or any of the apostles were saying this.  (I'm happy to discuss this more at a later date).

To explain this principal further (as it causes many trouble), let’s use the example of your national judicial laws again... 

Let’s say you violate a great many laws in your country and now law enforcement (law of sin) is dispatched to bring you in for the punishment due to you.  Before they reach you, suddenly a great judge arises and absolves you of all your wrongs and even pays the price for your punishment for all of your violations (and future ones) thereby making you a free person!  The great judge meets you and only asks that you follow His ways and His path – that is, to repent and become a law abiding citizen, following the law by its intention, which will stop you violating in future.   Now, how would you live your life thereafter…

Option 1: Would you obey the law of the land willingly?  You are now free from being “under the law” of enforcement – so the choice is yours.

Option 2:  Do you take advantage of your absolution and “friend in High places”?  You follow some laws naturally but not others but you neither care or bother as you have ultimately been freed.

Keep in mind that, whatever option you choose, the great judge will return to meet you one day to see how you have spent your time in freedom.

I don’t think following Torah is an issue of salvation, as salvation is a free gift in the Messiah Yahushua (Jesus Christ).  However, the Messiah told us that whoever ignores the Torah will be called “least in the Kingdom of God” in Matthew 5.  That should be a title that no Christian should desire to attain.

But a good title or not, following Torah is more about how we can live righteously for Him, by doing things He likes and loving Him by listening to His wisdom.  Because loving our neighbour and caring for the poor is one thing, but how can we show our love Yahweh if we don’t follow His guidance willingly?  Is singing worship songs to Him one day and violating Torah another truly pleasing to Him?  

I’ve thrown you some big questions (which are not directed to you personally) to stimulate your think upon these ideas you’re already tackling.  Perhaps Yahweh is opening your eyes on this matter.  If that’s the case, that brings me to this…

On 12/1/2019 at 7:02 PM, Resurrection Priest said:

That would mean the blood of Jesus covers all sins committed in ignorance, until such time that the person becomes aware that he has sinned against GOD. 

When we were "children", we weren't expected to follow Torah.  We came to Messiah fresh-faced and often poor educated on Scripture beforehand.  But there comes a time when we have grown as believers and ignorance can no longer apply as we have had ample time to study His Words (or ignore them).  

But even when we come to the Torah to learn His ways we are, again, given grace to learn, understand and be convicted by it - taking a step at a time as a child.  Our Father is gracious and kind to us as we do this and He takes us by the hand as we learn to walk.  He knows we haven't grown up learning it so it will take time. 

But it is so worth it!  Not only are we showing Yahweh we love Him directly, not only do we have a clear conscience when ready all Scripture, but there is a "harmony" that comes from following Torah.  Almost like tuning in a out of tune guitar to the perfect note.

Anyway, that's enough jibberjabber from me.  I hope the above gives you a different viewpoint to consider.

Love & Shalom

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Great answers Tzephanyahu.    You've explained that we who believe are no longer living "under" "the law of sin and death".   How true. 

Could you speak a little to the other statements made by Paul?

What does it mean that Yeshua was "born under the law" ?  He never sinned.  Some say He could not sin.  But if that was the case, then He was not "under the law of sin and death". 

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1 Corinthians 9:20 "To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law." (NET)

Here Paul seems to say that "the Jews" were "those under the law".   Did Paul include believing Jews in that group of "those under the law" ?  That's the question. 

Obviously those Jews who still refused to believe in Yeshua as "the Christ", WERE still under the condemnation of the law.  They had not been forgiven, because they had refused to only "sin offering" acceptable to GOD. 

Paul says that he "became like a Jew to gain Jews".   When did Paul do that, that what did that involve?   Was that when He went back to Jerusalem, and went to offer sacrifices at the Temple to complete a Nazarite vow?   He was obviously acting like a Jew. 

Is Paul saying that he did not need to do that?  He did that in order to get close to Jews, so he could win them to belief in Yeshua as the Christ.  Is that what Paul is saying? 

The Complete Jewish Bible really adds to the text, creating an interpretation rather than a translation. 

1 Corinthians 9:20 "That is, with Jews, what I did was put myself in the position of a Jew, in order to win Jews. With people in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah, I put myself in the position of someone under such legalism, in order to win those under this legalism, even though I myself am not in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah." (CJB)

The Complete Jewish Bible seems to interpret "under the law" to mean "under a legalistic perversion of the Torah".   That is an interpretation - NOT a translation of the words actually written. 

I am familiar with the Oral Torah and the "added" Law of the Pharisees.  While I completely agree that no one - Jew or Gentile, is under obligation to keep those traditions/additions, I don't believe that is what Paul is writing about in 1Corinthians 9:20.  

 

g

 

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1 hour ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Great answers Tzephanyahu.    You've explained that we who believe are no longer living "under" "the law of sin and death".   How true. 

Could you speak a little to the other statements made by Paul?

What does it mean that Yeshua was "born under the law" ?  He never sinned.  Some say He could not sin.  But if that was the case, then He was not "under the law of sin and death". 

There are TWO laws (i.e., TWO TORAHS):

LAW #1:  The law of sinful disobedience and death (Dt.30:15-19)

LAW #2: The law of righteous obedience and life (Dt.30:15-19).

Paul simply repeatedly confirms that we are not under LAW #1 (e.g., Rom.8:2).

Paul REQUIRES that we be under Law #2! (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19;Rom.11:26-27 citing Is.59:20-21;etc.)

 

So, Yeshua was under the law...obviously under Law #2!  After all, Yeshua never sinned (Heb.4:15).....and Yeshua expects obedience and life (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referencing Torah).

 

blessings...

 

Edited by BibleGuy
"two torahs" clarification
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59 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

1 Corinthians 9:20 "To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law." (NET)

Here Paul seems to say that "the Jews" were "those under the law".   Did Paul include believing Jews in that group of "those under the law" ?  That's the question. 

Obviously those Jews who still refused to believe in Yeshua as "the Christ", WERE still under the condemnation of the law.  They had not been forgiven, because they had refused to only "sin offering" acceptable to GOD. 

Paul says that he "became like a Jew to gain Jews".   When did Paul do that, that what did that involve?   Was that when He went back to Jerusalem, and went to offer sacrifices at the Temple to complete a Nazarite vow?   He was obviously acting like a Jew. 

Is Paul saying that he did not need to do that?  He did that in order to get close to Jews, so he could win them to belief in Yeshua as the Christ.  Is that what Paul is saying? 

The Complete Jewish Bible really adds to the text, creating an interpretation rather than a translation. 

1 Corinthians 9:20 "That is, with Jews, what I did was put myself in the position of a Jew, in order to win Jews. With people in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah, I put myself in the position of someone under such legalism, in order to win those under this legalism, even though I myself am not in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah." (CJB)

The Complete Jewish Bible seems to interpret "under the law" to mean "under a legalistic perversion of the Torah".   That is an interpretation - NOT a translation of the words actually written. 

I am familiar with the Oral Torah and the "added" Law of the Pharisees.  While I completely agree that no one - Jew or Gentile, is under obligation to keep those traditions/additions, I don't believe that is what Paul is writing about in 1Corinthians 9:20.  

 

g

 

The "Jews" at that time routinely thought that they were under the obligation to obey Torah AND additional traditional laws as well....

So, 1Cor.9 has Paul stating that Paul is NOT under the law of TORAH+BOGUS TRADITIONAL LAWS (as the Jews of that time routinely thought they needed to obey)....

And, 1Cor.9:21 clarifies (lest you get confused!) that Paul IS UNDER THE LAW OF GOD (which of course is TORAH, 1Ki.2:3).

And, 1 Cor.9:21 clarifies (lest you get confused!) that Paul IS UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST (which of course if TORAH, Mt.5:19, for all nations, Mt.28:19-20).

 

"Obviously those Jews who still refused to believe in Yeshua as "the Christ", WERE still under the condemnation of the law.  They had not been forgiven, because they had refused to only "sin offering" acceptable to GOD. "

Yes.

 

"Paul says that he "became like a Jew to gain Jews".   When did Paul do that, that what did that involve?   "

That would include occasions in which Paul would obey additional traditional laws (even though they are not required in Torah) simply for the purpose of evangelistic expediency (e.g., Paul's circumcision of Timothy, Ac.16:3).

Torah does NOT require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision....thus Torah does NOT require that Timothy, as an adult convert, be circumcised.

And, fully Torah-obedient Paul knows that Torah does not require that Timothy be circumcised as an adult convert.

And, Paul chooses to do it anyway (Ac.16:3), not because Torah requires it!  But "because of the Jews who were in those parts" (Ac.16:3).

That is, many Jews WRONGLY thought that Torah+Circumcision was law for Gentile converts (Remember Ac. 15?)

In truth, it is NOT law for Gentile converts.

That's why Torah-obedient Torah-teaching Paul requires TORAH (but not adult circumcision) for the Gentile-inclusive Corinthian congregation (1Cor.7:19).

So, Paul and Timothy are being "like a Jew to gain Jews" in Ac.16:3, simply for the sake of evangelistic expediency.....

After all, Torah does not FORBID the practicing of additional traditional laws....SO LONG AS those traditions do not CONTRADICT Torah.

 

"Was that when He went back to Jerusalem, and went to offer sacrifices at the Temple to complete a Nazarite vow?   He was obviously acting like a Jew. "

Paul's vow in Ac. 21 was to prove that Paul "walked orderly according to the law" (i.e., TORAH).  Paul requires that we imitate that model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul's obedience to all Torah is not optional.

Our obedience to ALL observable Torah is not optional.

It IS optional to obey traditional laws which are NOT required by Torah (1Cor.6:12).

 

"The Complete Jewish Bible seems to interpret "under the law" to mean "under a legalistic perversion of the Torah".   That is an interpretation - NOT a translation of the words actually written. "

Granted.  It's not always a translation....sometimes it's more of an interpretation.

But Stern is correct...as likewise confirmed by my considerations here in this post.

 

By the way, Stern is WRONG, incidentally, in thinking that only JEWISH believers should be obeying Torah.....

In fact, Torah (Mt.5:19) is required for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"I am familiar with the Oral Torah and the "added" Law of the Pharisees.  While I completely agree that no one - Jew or Gentile, is under obligation to keep those traditions/additions, I don't believe that is what Paul is writing about in 1Corinthians 9:20.  "

Why not?  It fits the broader context of Scripture.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

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Shalom friend,

6 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Could you speak a little to the other statements made by Paul?

If I can I will.  Which statements though?

6 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

What does it mean that Yeshua was "born under the law" ?

I believe the best way to describe this in another way is that the Lord Yeshua was born into this world and therefore subject to it's physical rules, dimensions and yes Torah.  The Lord effectively became obedient to the Torah He wrote for man.

Now, the Lord Yeshua had a human body or "earth suit".  That is, the vessel with which a spirit can interact within this world that we live in.  True, He didn't have an earthly father who could have carried Adam's curse, but His mother was of course human.  I could believe that He could have lived the long years beyond that of Methuselah had He not be crucified - because His sinless life would have added length of life and "health to His body and strength to His bones" - Proverbs 3:8.  That said, the earth suit must die as it's very existence is testimony to the fall of man - as man was destined to have this kind of suit.  

To put it another way, to be born in this realm means you will have to die at some point.  This Nephesh is not eternal and so to be born in this world is to be born under that burden or "under the law" 

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Did Paul include believing Jews in that group of "those under the law" ? 

I see what your saying, but I don't think Paul is expounding on his previous line.  I read it as *pointing to the right* "to the Jews I became as a Jew" *pointing to the left* to those under the law, as one under the law" - not pointing to the same group.  

True "Jew" can be a connotative term for various sects like the Pharisees, but not necessarily every time.

Also be aware that whilst we have been talking about two laws, the Torah and the Law of sin and death, that wasn't the only law he talked about.  It's awkward as the same greek word is used throughout so context is everything.  Anyway, the third law discussed often is the law (or works of the law) of the Pharisees, that is, their traditions, ceremonies and ordinances. 

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Paul says that he "became like a Jew to gain Jews".   When did Paul do that, that what did that involve?   Was that when He went back to Jerusalem, and went to offer sacrifices at the Temple to complete a Nazarite vow?   He was obviously acting like a Jew. 

Is Paul saying that he did not need to do that?  He did that in order to get close to Jews, so he could win them to belief in Yeshua as the Christ.  Is that what Paul is saying? 

No I don't believe so.  I think what Paul was saying is that "I would meet someone wherever they are at, talking on their level, with their terms, in hope I can get the truth to them".  I don't think he would have carried out hypocritical actions to win people over and then say to them "Ignore what I done, that was just to get you!".

But this is an interesting point.  This nazarite vow came at an ideal time for Paul.  Many were spreading false rumours about Paul that he was teaching against the Torah, as many do today (even in this very forum).  So, to show there was no foundation for these false accusations he made a public display (at his own risk) that he was still following Torah.

To believe otherwise is to suggest that Paul was acting as a hypocrite or lying to the crowds in order to win people for Messiah.  But what a cost that would be to pay to win people to the Messiah under a false pretence.  How could we expect the Father to be pleased with those double standards.  

But Paul didn't NEED to do that at all.  Paul was free (as we are today) to not follow Torah and rely on salvation alone.  But no, he continued to follow Torah according to all historical accounts of him in "newness of spirit" instead of just by the letter.  To live righteously for Him out of love for Him and in honour of Him.  

It's sad so many still think that following Torah is a miserable affair.  It does bring pleasure to walk His ways.  I believe that every believer should get to the state where they can read the longest Psalm - Psalm 119 and say "amen" at the end with a passion in their heart.

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The Complete Jewish Bible seems to interpret "under the law" to mean "under a legalistic perversion of the Torah".   That is an interpretation - NOT a translation of the words actually written. 

I agree. As cool as the CJB can be at times, It's not my favourite version.  I think their zeal or mandate can sometimes overrule their translation accuracy.

5 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I am familiar with the Oral Torah and the "added" Law of the Pharisees.  While I completely agree that no one - Jew or Gentile, is under obligation to keep those traditions/additions, I don't believe that is what Paul is writing about in 1Corinthians 9:20.  

Yes you could be right.  However, the next verses then mention another law - God's Law - which he says he is NOT without. And yet another law (the 5th mentioned so far) the "law of Christ". That is, the law or assurance of salvation with life in the spirit.

It's fiddly I know! But there's four things to remember that can help clear up all of Paul's letters.

1. Paul writes with a lot of presuppositions of the reader.  He takes it for granted the readers are familiar with the Tanakh (Old Testament), quoting and making references to it regularly.  

2. Paul has a lot of haters.  If Paul was so openly against Torah he would have been torn apart by synagogues and the envoys from Jerusalem.  Instead, they struggled to catch him out - much like the Messiah and Stephen.  Acts are full of these encounters.

3. Paul is a masterclass in Scripture exposition.  Paul is far more advanced that people give him credit.  His writing style starts multiple subject arcs which he weaves together to form a message as a whole.  Picking a verse out here and there loses all of the "case" he is trying to build.

4. Paul is hard to understand.  The Apostle Peter himself writes in 2 Peter 3:16 that Paul is hard to understand and that many twist his words as they do with the rest of the Scriptures.  So, if you are being told that what Paul says contradicts the words of Yahweh Himself?? You can be assured than a mistake has been made!

But if any misconception has been made about what Paul thinks about the Torah and Old Testament,  and law this and law that, he makes the matter very plain in 2 Timothy 3:14-17.

Anyway, I hope I have answered one of your questions satisfactorily.  They are great questions by the way!

Love & Shalom

 

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The story of the first "sin" tells me that "the law of sin and death" was operative in the Garden of Eden, from the very first day of Adam's existence. 

God  said - in effect - obey me or die.   

Genesis 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (NKJ)

That LAW was NOT introduced at Mount Sinai.  The Israelites were simply reminded of a law already in operation. 

Peter wrote, "with the Lord a day is as a thousand years."  Adam and Eve died within the "day" that they ate fruit from the forbidden tree. 

When did "the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ" come into operation?   Was it in operation before Christ died? 

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19 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Now, the Lord Yeshua had a human body or "earth suit".  That is, the vessel with which a spirit can interact within this world that we live in.  True, He didn't have an earthly father who could have carried Adam's curse, but His mother was of course human.

Good answers in your post.  Thank you.

The only thing I would not have described in the way you did, was this part I quoted.  I personally believe that no human being is "alive" without a body (except in a vision such as Paul experienced).  Paul describes three states of being.  The (1) earthly house, the (2) "house not made with hands" - the "spiritual body", and (3) a state of being "naked" (without a house/body).  "Naked" - without a body, describes death. 

This is a whole other discussion.  I only mentioned it to show that I have differences in just that one point. 

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There is the Mosaic Covenant "Law" that is prescribed for the Hebrew people.  Even Paul stuck by it as exampled in Acts 21  when James has him go sacrifice at the temple for the Nazarite  vow.  

But  the same council headed by James affirmed that the gentiles in Messiah were still only bound by the Noachide Laws.   That is the schism that developed early on.  Most of the early church was Jewish.  Tradition was  that for a gentile to join the congregation of Israel, they had to become a proselyte and place themselves under the Mosaic Torah.  They  would become Jews at that point.

But that fact is, one could  still be what is called a "righteous gentile" or "God fearer" and still remain under the Noachide laws.   And that is in keeping  with the  Mosaic Law of the  Torah.   Gentiles are not required, nor are they allowed to keep the Torah of Moshe unless they became proselytes and placed themselves under the Mosaic Covenant, becoming  Jewish.  Even in ancient Israel, there was a Noachide court that sat at the gate of a city and judged violations of the Noachide Law in Israel by gentiles.  

The Hebrew Roots movement is great when it comes to seeing Yeshua  in the Moedim and other aspects of the Torah.  Where it can go out of bounds is when it prescribes that gentiles who become believers must adhere to the Mosaic Torah.   

Edited by OldCoot
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