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GALATIANS 1:8 WHO IS ACCURSED ?


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20 hours ago, bcbsr said:

There you made a serious error in interpretation. Yes in Romans 2 Paul is talking about justification by the law. What you fail to realize is that in chapter 3 he concludes that justification by the law is futile. 

Rom 3:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.  This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

You have just proven that you are a Judaizer preaching justification by the law, which is the very thing that Paul so vehemently opposed. 

And, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."" Gal 3:10,11 

Yet you judge others regarding the Sabbath. 

Concerning the Law, "The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25

Of Christians he writes, "you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14

In Gal 5:1 he says, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."

Ga 5:3  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

Yet you insist that Christians must keep the whole law. You are the very kind of person that Paul is arguing against in Galatians.

" What you fail to realize is that in chapter 3 he concludes that justification by the law is futile.  "

What YOU fail to realize is that in chapter 3 he concludes that justification by the law is futile IF WITHOUT FAITH!

That's why Paul contrasts:

1. FAITH in Jesus (Rom.3:22) Who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19), with

2. WORKS OF THE LAW (Rom.3:20) which are WITHOUT faith (as inferred from the contrast in Rom.3:22).

 

That's why Paul requires BOTH!  LAW (2Ti.3:16) and FAITH (Gal.3:11) TOGETHER.

Again, Paul says that TORAH-OBEDIENCE is the very word of faith he preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"Rom 3:20-24 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;"

Of COURSE observing law without faith in Christ is useless....

That's why Jesus requires LAW (Mt.5:19) AND FAITH (Mt.23:23) TOGETHER.

Not law alone!  (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone! (Jas.2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

Of COURSE it's true that LAW WITHOUT FAITH does nothing but bring awareness of sin.

That's why we need LAW (Mt.5:19) AND FAITH (Mt.23:23) TOGETHER.  Jesus was not joking.

 

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.  "

Of COURSE we are not righteous by law without faith.

We are righteous by faith and law TOGETHER.  FAITH (Dt.18:15;32:20) and LAW (Dt.31:12) TOGETHER for righteousness (Dt.6:25).  After all, Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37), which proves we love God and exhibit RIGHTEOUSNESS in obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:5,25).....Jesus was not joking.

Paul AGREES that TORAH must teach and rebuke and correct and train us in RIGHTEOUSNESS (2Ti.3:16)....

John AGREES that RIGHTEOUSNESS is something we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

And Paul CONFIRMS that the RIGHTEOUSNESS about he speaks is a righteousness "TO WHICH THE TORAH AND PROPHETS TESTIFY"!

And what does TORAH say about Paul's righteousness?  That we obey ALL TORAH (Dt.6:25) in righteousness.....NOT FAITH WITHOUT TORAH.

The Prophets AGREE that we obey TORAH, even in the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33) which Paul also affirms (1Cor.11).

After all, the PROPHETS testify that even in the NEW Covenant, we obey Torah "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

This again proves Paul's viewpoint is LAW + FAITH TOGETHER.

NOT law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

 

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Paul here upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY!

Paul here upholds FAITH (which is of TORAH, Mt.23:23;Ps.119:30,86,138).  So OBEY!

Paul here upholds JESUS who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL Disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).  So OBEY!  That's what disciples DO!

Paul here upholds BELIEVING....and even Abraham (who BELIEVED) also OBEYED TORAHS (Ge.26:5).  So be like Abraham and OBEY IN FAITH!

 

"There is no difference,  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

We have all sinned.  We ALL must have our sins taken away by faith in the blood of Christ (Rom.5:9;1Jn.1:7).

And GRACE is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  And HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

Paul here upholds GOD who requires TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33;etc). So OBEY!

Paul here upholds JESUS who requires all Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL Disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).  So OBEY!  That's what disciples DO!

 

"You have just proven that you are a Judaizer preaching justification by the law, which is the very thing that Paul so vehemently opposed. "

You don't even understand my position.  I OPPOSE Judaizing.  Remember Peter's hypocrisy?

Try again!

Paul requires LAW+FAITH.

Paul OPPOSES LAW WITHOUT FAITH.

LAW+FAITH is NOT what a "Judaizer" does.

LAW+FAITH is what Paul PREACHES! (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

LAW+FAITH is what JESUS COMMANDS! (Mt.23:23) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

STOP twisting Paul's words.....thanks.

 

"And, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."" Gal 3:10,11 "

Of COURSE we are not justified by law without faith!  AGREED!

And Paul REQUIRES " אֱמוּנָה " (citing Hab.2:4 at Gal.3:11).  AND!  What is this way of " אֱמוּנָה " required by Paul?  ANSWER:  TORAH!  (see " אֱמוּנָה " in Ps.119:30,86,138 for proof).

This again confirms that Paul requires LAW+FAITH TOGETHER.

NOT law alone (Gal.3:10-11;5:4-5).

NOT faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER.

Jesus agrees:  FAITH IS OF TORAH! (Mt.23:23).  Jesus was not joking.

 

"Yet you judge others regarding the Sabbath. "

JESUS requires Sabbath for all disciples (Mt.5:19 + Mt.28:19-20).....it's HIS requirement, not mine.

PAUL requires all Torah (2Ti.3:16).

JOHN requires all Torah (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

STEPHEN requires all Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

The APOSTLES, in general, teach Torah (Mt.23:34).

So OF COURSE we use all Torah to correct others....that's what Paul REQUIRES (2Ti.3:16).

 

"Concerning the Law, "The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25"

Of COURSE we are no longer under the TUTOR-function of Torah...because we in Christ have already come to Christ!

Is that the ONLY function of Torah?

OF COURSE NOT!

Torah is good (Rom.7:12).  BE GOOD (Gal.6:10) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.  So obey!

Torah is holy (Rom.7:12).  BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) thus entails OBEYING TORAH (in fact, Peter applies Lev. 11 to you explicitly, 1Pe.1:16).  So obey!  STOP eating pork!

Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12).  DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7) means OBEY TORAH! Otherwise you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who does NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

Torah is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  Seek and pursue the SPIRITUAL (1Cor.14:1) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.  SO obey!

Torah defines SIN (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus entails OBEYING TORAH.  So obey!  STOP sinning!

Torah is FOUNDATIONAL to the New Covenant (Jer.31:33).  So OBEY the Torah of the New Covenant which Jesus inaugurated for you in His very blood (Lk.22:20).

Torah is GOOD fruit (Rom.7:12;Ps.119:39).  So bear the fruit of GOODNESS in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is PEACEFUL fruit (Ps.119:165).  So bear the fruit of PEACE in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is LOVING fruit (1Jn.5:3;Jn14:15+Mt.5:19;Dt.6:5,25).  So bear the fruit of LOVE in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is JOYOUS fruit (Ps.119:162).  So bear the fruit of JOY in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is FAITHFUL fruit (Mt.23:23;Hab.2:4+Ps.119:30,86,138;Dt.18:15;32:20).  So bear the fruit of FAITHFULNESS in the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23).  OBEY Torah!

Torah is an ONGOING SHADOW (PRESENT TENSE in Col.2:17 and Heb.10:1 with respect to the ONGOING shadow-function of Torah).

Torah is personified and embodied in Christ Himself (Jn.1:14;Col.2:17), NOT terminated or canceled.

Torah is the substance of proper DISCIPLESHIP of all nations (alluding, for example, Mt. 5:19 in Mt.28:19-20).

 

So let's stop neglecting the ONGOING TORAH FUNCTIONS, according to Scripture.

 

"Of Christians he writes, "you are not under law but under grace." Rom 6:14"

Of COURSE we are not UNDER LAW.  UNDER LAW (in Romans) means UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH...and we are NOT UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH (Rom.8:2).

Rather, we are under the law of OBEDIENCE (Mt.5:19;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19) and LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;30:15-19;32:47).  So OBEY!

Why would you continue to sin?  That makes no sense.  Paul told us to NOT SIN (Rom.6:15) meaning OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

AND!  Grace is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Zep.2:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9).  So receive grace and OBEY!

 

"In Gal 5:1 he says, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.""

Agreed!  It's BONDAGE to seek justification by LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5).

So do BOTH!

LAW (2Ti3:16) and FAITH (Gal.3:11) TOGETHER!

LAW and FAITH together (Mt.23:23).

It's a LAW OF FAITH (Rom.3:27), not faithless works.

It's FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

It's FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE (Rom.1:5).

It's FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE (Rom.16:26).

Obedience to what?  TORAH! (ALL Scripture, 2Ti.3:16).

 

"Ga 5:3  And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law."

Of COURSE adult-male-Gentile-converts need not become circumcised.  Torah does not even require it!  The ongoing mark is for INFANTS (Lev.12:3)....not adult-male-Gentile-converts.

That's why Torah-obedient Paul requires ALL Torah, but not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (1Cor.7:19)....because Torah does not even require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

 

Jesus was NOT joking (Mt.5:19).  ALL TORAH!

 

"Yet you insist that Christians must keep the whole law. You are the very kind of person that Paul is arguing against in Galatians."

Actually, that was JESUS (Mt.5:19).

1. Paul opposes LAW WITHOUT FAITH (Gal.5:4-5).

2. Paul REQUIRES Law (2Ti.3:16) + FAITH (Gal.3:11).

STOP confusing these two distinct issues.

They are NOT the same.

 

And look at Jesus' SCARY warnings against those who oppose Torah!  (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

Why would you want those terrible consequences?

 

So OBEY!

 

blessings...

 

Edited by BibleGuy
missed a Biblical reference
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19 hours ago, Alive said:

Yup---the transition for those apostles being Jews was not an easy one and it was slow.

In the early years, the Church was closely tied to the synagogue system and indeed much of the structure that Paul set up for local assemblies came in large part from the synagogue system. This all worked really well because there were synagogues in every city, so it served the Lord for the spreading of the Gospel.

In the early years, Rome still considered Christianity a Jewish sect and tolerated it.

At a point the Lord stepped in and busted that relationship to pieces ultimately severing Moses from Christ. Law from Grace. And so the story goes.

The enemy would seek to reverse that. Of all of the heresies, the most insidious are those that try to put mans efforts at the fore. This appeals to the natural man. "Oh, that Ishmael might live"--when it is Isaac, the son of promise that represents life. A gift. A free gift of Grace through faith.

 

" the Lord stepped in and busted that relationship to pieces ultimately severing Moses from Christ. Law from Grace. And so the story goes."

Nonsense. 

Christ requires TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS (Mt.28:19-20).

GRACE and TORAH go TOGETHER (Ex.33:13).

GRACE is given to the HUMBLE (Pr.3:34;Jas.4:6).   HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ex.33:13;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

PAUL requires TORAH (2Ti.3:16).

JOHN requires TORAH (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

STEPHEN requires TORAH (Ac.6:10-15).

Let's get back to the Bible.....

 

"promise that represents life."

And Jesus expects us to have LIFE (Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referencing TORAH) because we OBEY TORAH (citing Dt. 8:3 at Mt.4:4).

We have the Spirit of LIFE who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

 

"A free gift of Grace through faith."

And GRACE is given to the humble (Jas.4:6;Pr.3:34).  HUMBLE people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Ex.33:13;Zep.2:3).

FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23).  So OBEY!  Jesus was not joking.

 

" Of all of the heresies, the most insidious are those that try to put mans efforts at the fore. "

True!  We do NOT earn salvation by faithless works.

The blood alone takes away our sins (1Jn.1:7).

Shall we thus sin by disobeying God's laws?  OF COURSE NOT! (1Cor.15:34).

So OBEY...just as Jesus requires (Mt.5:19).

 

Or DISOBEY and be at risk of the following: Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42.

 

YOU choose.

 

blessings...

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5 hours ago, Behold said:

ACTUALLY, thats not true.

Paul never preached....."believen on the Lord Jesus, and keep the Torah to be saved".

You don't even seem to realize that you are the very one who is preaching "another Gospel", as your message that you just quoted, is blending faith with "keeping".   that is Grace + Works.

See that ?   >>>"Keeping"<<<<......that is "works", and when you combine works + faith, you have now preached "another Gospel".

Don't do that.

That's Galatians 1:8.

The "gospel", is that Christ came, died, rose again, and God offers this redeeming SACRIFICIAL  LIFE OF CHRIST, this "salvation"=  that Christ ALONE gained on the CROSS, as a FREE GIFT of Salvation, to any and all who "BELIEVE".

That is not "works".

That is not "keeping the Torah" or the Commandments, which is the SAME, as "Keeping the Torah".

That is God, as Christ, dying for the sin of the world, in our place, so that our SIN, can be forgiven.   JOHN 3:16

Thats THE GOSPEL.  That is the "preaching of the Cross".   That is ALL that Paul PREACHED.

You are not preaching it.   You are preaching "another Gospel".

STOP !

"ACTUALLY, thats not true.  Paul never preached....."believe on the Lord Jesus, and keep the Torah to be saved". "

Of COURSE Paul preached that!  1Cor. 15:2 says we are saved IF WE HOLD FAST THE WORD HE PREACHES.

And Paul preached FAITHFUL TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

"You don't even seem to realize that you are the very one who is preaching "another Gospel", as your message that you just quoted, is blending faith with "keeping".   that is Grace + Works."

The BIBLE requires FAITH (Rom.5:1) + WORKS (Jas.2:24) for justification.

 

"See that ?   >>>"Keeping"<<<<......that is "works", and when you combine works + faith, you have now preached "another Gospel"."

OOPS!  Paul requires that you KEEP GOD's COMMANDS (1Cor.7:19)....which are, of course, contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

 

"Don't do that."

DO RIGHTEOUSNESS! (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will not inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

That's TORAH-OBEDIENT righteousness required by Jesus in Mt.5:20.

 

"That's Galatians 1:8."

Yes, a false gospel of LAW WITHOUT FAITH is very bad.  DON'T believe that.

Instead, believe Paul's gospel of LAW (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19) and FAITH (Rom.5:1;Gal.3:11) TOGETHER.

 

"The "gospel", is that Christ came, died, rose again, and God offers this redeeming SACRIFICIAL  LIFE OF CHRIST, this "salvation"=  that Christ ALONE gained on the CROSS, as a FREE GIFT of Salvation, to any and all who "BELIEVE"."

Sounds good!  But don't forget!  That same Jesus ALSO requires ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) to disciple ALL NATIONS (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"That is not "works"."

Of course we are not justified by works alone.

But we ARE justified by works with faith (Jas.2:24).

 

"That is not "keeping the Torah" or the Commandments, which is the SAME, as "Keeping the Torah"."

Paul REQUIRES that you keep the Torah Commandments (1Cor.7:10).  John agrees (1Jn.5:3).  Jesus agrees (Jn.14:15+Mt.5:19).

 

"That is God, as Christ, dying for the sin of the world, in our place, so that our SIN, can be forgiven.   JOHN 3:16"

Awesome!  And if your SINS are forgiven, shall we continue to SIN by DISOBEYING TORAH?

Of course not! (1Cor.15:34)

So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34).

OBEY in faith!

 

"Thats THE GOSPEL.  That is the "preaching of the Cross".   That is ALL that Paul PREACHED."

NOPE!  Paul says we are saved IF WE HOLD FAST TO THE WORD HE PREACHES (1Cor.15:2)....which includes TORAH-OBEDIENCE (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

That's FAITH + LAW TOGETHER>

Jesus agrees...FAITH IS OF TORAH (Mt.23:23).

 

"You are not preaching it.   You are preaching "another Gospel"."

Rather, you don't understand the Gospel.

Go ahead....look up the Biblical passages I've set before you.

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Behold said:

Here is what you are missing....

No matter who is being preached to, Jew, or Gentile, following the resurrection of Christ........All are the same.  They are all just sinners in need of Salvation.

The Gospel, is not a divided message.  It is one message.  It is the message of the Cross.

The preaching of the Cross, "is the power of God, UNTO Salvation" "both for the jew and gentile".   So, there is one Gospel, one Savior, and one message. = ONE.

Its This....."JESUS SAVES".

There is no other message. There is no other way, as Jesus is THE WAY...to God, John 14: 6..... and there is no 2nd part, or jewish part, or any other part.

Its one Savior dying on ONE Cross, and this is the ONLY Message that when  preached allows the hearer to BELIEVE ON CHRIST.

So, your issue, is that you have not understood that Paul had the "good news" and Peter had "repent and be Baptized".

Paul had the Gospel of Grace, and Peter had John the Baptist's message to Jews...  (Act 2:38)

But this changed.  Revelation came to all the Apostles...... It changed for Peter when Peter was shown the Gospel of the Grace of God, in Acts 10, by God, and as he continued to Mature regarding revelation, and after Paul came online and began the ministry ("time of the Gentiles"), (and Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles)......Peter along with all the rest of the Apostles,  eventually came to understand THE Gospel....which is the same as we preach it now.  "justification by faith", alone. "The gift of Righteousness". "not by  our works of righteousness,  but only by God's mercy we are saved". = GRACE.  The Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD.  This is the "preaching of the CROSS".

 What many believers don't know, because they have been taught..... is that all the doctrinal knowledge that we have now....looking back 2000 years into the completed New Testament....... The apostles all came to this same knowledge of "grace through faith" also......but not all at the same time.

Paul had this "Grace of God" revelation, because Jesus gave it to him first, and Peter got it at some point after Acts 10, which is at least 10 yrs after Christ ascended back into Heaven.

 

Please show me where in scripture Peter preached the same gospel as Paul.

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55 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Christ requires TORAH (Mt.5:19)

Christ will energize us to keep HIS "changed" TORAH.  

I did not "change" TORAH.  GOD the Father did. 

You deny that the LORD has changed TORAH. 

The TORAH is NOT "abolished".  I has been "changed" - specifically "the priesthood" - BY GOD HIMSELF. 

There is STILL a priesthood -  the Melchizedek priesthood of "the firstborn" - which was the original priesthood.  The Levite priesthood is NOT THE ORIGINAL PRIESTHOOD.

The Levite priesthood WAS a change.  The words "the Levites instead of the firstborn" are repeated several times (Numbers 3:12, 41, 45; Num 8:16, 18).   The LORD Himself commanded that "change" after the Golden Calf rebellion.  So don't tell me that God never changes anything.  The "change" (back to the firstborn) after Christ's death and ascension, was to bring things BACK to His original order.  The Levite priesthood was a detour from that plan. 

When I recognize and honor the priesthood of the Firstborn, "instead of" the Levite priesthood, I am keeping TORAH.  

 

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56 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Christ will energize us to keep HIS "changed" TORAH.  

I did not "change" TORAH.  GOD the Father did. 

You deny that the LORD has changed TORAH. 

The TORAH is NOT "abolished".  I has been "changed" - specifically "the priesthood" - BY GOD HIMSELF. 

There is STILL a priesthood -  the Melchizedek priesthood of "the firstborn" - which was the original priesthood.  The Levite priesthood is NOT THE ORIGINAL PRIESTHOOD.

The Levite priesthood WAS a change.  The words "the Levites instead of the firstborn" are repeated several times (Numbers 3:12, 41, 45; Num 8:16, 18).   The LORD Himself commanded that "change" after the Golden Calf rebellion.  So don't tell me that God never changes anything.  The "change" (back to the firstborn) after Christ's death and ascension, was to bring things BACK to His original order.  The Levite priesthood was a detour from that plan. 

When I recognize and honor the priesthood of the Firstborn, "instead of" the Levite priesthood, I am keeping TORAH.  

 

" Christ will energize us to keep HIS "changed" TORAH.   "

To the contrary, the SAME TORAH (Mt.5:19) applies to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

 

"I did not "change" TORAH.  GOD the Father did. "

NOTHING in Torah passes away until ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED (Mt.5:18)....and Dt.30:1-8 is NOT yet accomplished....and Dt. 30:1-8 promises 100% restoration of ALL Torah commanded at that time....NO CHANGES.

 

"You deny that the LORD has changed TORAH. "

That's because the LORD did not change the Torah.  The SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33), or else Jeremiah is a false prophet (Dt.13:1-5).

 

"The TORAH is NOT "abolished".  I has been "changed" - specifically "the priesthood" - BY GOD HIMSELF. "

Then YOU CLAIM that Levitical Torah is ABOLISHED (contradicting Mt.5:17).

Moreover, Jesus comes to restore the SAME LEVTICAL PRIESTHOOD (Mal.3:4) to fulfill the prophets (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

NO CHANGE.

SAME TORAH.

Levitical sacrifices CONTINUE into the New-Covenant era (Ac.6:7;21:20,24;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20).

 

 

Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

YOU (and the antiChrist, Da.9:27;2Th.2:3-4) desire to STOP Levitical sacrifices.

Let's make sure we're working for the right team.

 

"There is STILL a priesthood -  the Melchizedek priesthood of "the firstborn" - which was the original priesthood."

There is STILL a LEVITICAL Priesthood (Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20;Ac.6:7;21:20,24;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1).

 

" The Levite priesthood is NOT THE ORIGINAL PRIESTHOOD."

They BOTH coexist.  Jesus was a MELCHIZEDEK priest at the SAME TIME the Levitical Priesthood was also functioning.

 

"The Levite priesthood WAS a change. "

The Levite priesthood was an ADDITION.

 

"The words "the Levites instead of the firstborn" are repeated several times (Numbers 3:12, 41, 45; Num 8:16, 18).   "

AND, the "firstborn", in those passages, does NOT refer to MELCHIZEDEK Priesthood.  That's just your unjustified eisegesis.

I've already told you this.

And you've STILL not provided evidence that "firstborn", in those passages, must refer to MELCHIZEDEK Priesthood.

So, your position REMAINS unsubstantiated.

 

"The LORD Himself commanded that "change" after the Golden Calf rebellion.  "

NOT A CHANGE.  The Hebrew term " תַּחַת " is simply a substitution of LEVITES for all firstborn ISRAELITES....NOT a CHANGE from MELCHIZDEK Priesthood selection methodology to LEVITICAL priesthood selection methodology.

That's just your eisegesis at work again.

 

"So don't tell me that God never changes anything.  "

Relax!  God WILL allow the Levitical Priesthood to pass away....AFTER ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED (Mt.5:18)....AND ALL IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED! (e.g., Dt.30:1-8;Mal.3:4;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14;Jer.33).  Thus, the Levitical Priesthood is NOT TERMINATED OR CHANGED.

Eze. 40-47 is yet FUTURE...and that's an animal-sacrifice-laden LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD.

You've never proven that Eze.40-47 already happened....because it HAS NOT HAPPENED YET!

 

"The "change" (back to the firstborn) after Christ's death and ascension, was to bring things BACK to His original order. "

Again, more eisegesis....and disconfirmed by the ONGOING Levitical Priesthood activity affirmed as LEGITIMATE in Ac. 6:7;21:21,24 and the ongoing Levitical sacrifices prophesied in Dt.30:1-8 and Mal.3:4 and Eze.40-47 and Is.66 and Zec.6 and Zec.14 and Jer.33.

 

"The Levite priesthood was a detour from that plan. "

The detour CONTINUES! Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20;Ac.6:7;21:20,24;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;1Jn.5:3;2Ti.3:16;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1

 

"When I recognize and honor the priesthood of the Firstborn, "instead of" the Levite priesthood, I am keeping TORAH.  "

When you SUBTRACT from the Levitical Torah that is NOT TERMINATED, you are NOT KEEPING TORAH (Dt.4:2;12:32).

 

Jesus Christ RESTORES Levitical sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

Anti-christ STOPS Levitical sacrifices (Da.9:27;2Th.2:3-4).

 

Choose for yourselves this day whose theology you uphold!

 

As for me and my house...we will serve the LORD.....

And those who SERVE are those who obey ALL TORAH (Jos.22:5)....

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by BibleGuy
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Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

Did Christ fulfill TORAH?  Answer:  Yes!  He was obedient unto death.  He perfectly fulfilled the terms of the covenant and will therefore legally receive the reward of the covenant - the land. 

"Fulfill" Strong's #4137, meaning to accomplish or to complete. 

Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."

"Accomplished" - Strong's #1096, meaning: to come into being, to happen, to become.

Two different words are used.  One tells us that Christ would accomplish something, or complete something.  (Jesus cried out "it is finished".) 

The other word tells us that something will happen.  Something will come into being.  And the NEW thing will not come into being UNTIL this present "heaven and earth" "pass away". 

What will be "new" once this present "heaven and earth" have passed away?   Is it not the "new heavens and a new earth" (Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22, 2Peter 3:13)? 

It seems obvious that some things will "pass away from the Law" WHEN "heaven and earth pass away".  You seem to be preaching that nothing WILL EVER pass away from TORAH - that it will go on unchanged forever - even when Christ creates new heavens and the New Earth. 

UNTIL this world is passed away

Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls (removes) one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

I did NOT removed any commandment.  I have not taught others that any one of GOD's commands are removed.  GOD has instituted the Melchizedek priesthood as present reality.   That priesthood exists now, as the only means of reconciliation (atonement) with GOD.  

Access to a Levite priesthood has been impossible for almost 2000 years.  The LORD has allowed that. 

When/if the LORD allows the building of a new Temple on the Mount, and when/if Levite priests are consecrated for that Temple - it will not be a "sin" to go there and offer sacrifices.  Those believers in Yeshua who are allowed to do so, will do so as a memorial to Him.  They will do so because they are seeking to fulfill TORAH.  I don't believe the LORD would punish them for such.  (I also very much doubt that believers in Yeshua will be allowed at that Temple.)  I also do not believe the LORD will punish those genuine believers who choose NOT to offer animal sacrifices, because of their beliefs - especially those who live far from the territory of Israel. 

When/if another Temple is restored on the Mount, it will only last for a short time.   We don't know how long between the inauguration of that Temple and the appearance of the Antichrist in that Temple.  He will sit in that Temple, "showing himself that he is God".   His army "will take away the daily sacrifices and place there the abomination that makes desolate" .    After that, it may only be months (perhaps 42) before Christ returns. 

The earth will pass away

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." 

NO ONE will "survive" that day, unless removed from this planet!

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3 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

Did Christ fulfill TORAH?  Answer:  Yes!  He was obedient unto death.  He perfectly fulfilled the terms of the covenant and will therefore legally receive the reward of the covenant - the land. 

"Fulfill" Strong's #4137, meaning to accomplish or to complete. 

Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."

"Accomplished" - Strong's #1096, meaning: to come into being, to happen, to become.

Two different words are used.  One tells us that Christ would accomplish something, or complete something.  (Jesus cried out "it is finished".) 

The other word tells us that something will happen.  Something will come into being.  And the NEW thing will not come into being UNTIL this present "heaven and earth" "pass away". 

What will be "new" once this present "heaven and earth" have passed away?   Is it not the "new heavens and a new earth" (Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22, 2Peter 3:13)? 

It seems obvious that some things will "pass away from the Law" WHEN "heaven and earth pass away".  You seem to be preaching that nothing WILL EVER pass away from TORAH - that it will go on unchanged forever - even when Christ creates new heavens and the New Earth. 

UNTIL this world is passed away

Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls (removes) one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

I did NOT removed any commandment.  I have not taught others that any one of GOD's commands are removed.  GOD has instituted the Melchizedek priesthood as present reality.   That priesthood exists now, as the only means of reconciliation (atonement) with GOD.  

Access to a Levite priesthood has been impossible for almost 2000 years.  The LORD has allowed that. 

When/if the LORD allows the building of a new Temple on the Mount, and when/if Levite priests are consecrated for that Temple - it will not be a "sin" to go there and offer sacrifices.  Those believers in Yeshua who are allowed to do so, will do so as a memorial to Him.  They will do so because they are seeking to fulfill TORAH.  I don't believe the LORD would punish them for such.  (I also very much doubt that believers in Yeshua will be allowed at that Temple.)  I also do not believe the LORD will punish those genuine believers who choose NOT to offer animal sacrifices, because of their beliefs - especially those who live far from the territory of Israel. 

When/if another Temple is restored on the Mount, it will only last for a short time.   We don't know how long between the inauguration of that Temple and the appearance of the Antichrist in that Temple.  He will sit in that Temple, "showing himself that he is God".   His army "will take away the daily sacrifices and place there the abomination that makes desolate" .    After that, it may only be months (perhaps 42) before Christ returns. 

The earth will pass away

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." 

NO ONE will "survive" that day, unless removed from this planet!

" The other word tells us that something will happen.  Something will come into being.  "

Yes!  EVERYTHING in the TORAH AND PROPHETS will have happened BEFORE Torah passes away....

And MUCH in the Torah and Prophets is NOT yet fulfilled...thus NO TORAH IS TERMINATED (per Mt.5:18).

 

"It seems obvious that some things will "pass away from the Law" WHEN "heaven and earth pass away".  "

Not WHEN...but AFTER.....evidently MUCH after....because even the NEW EARTH has LEVITICAL sacrifices (Is.66:21-23).

 

"Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls (removes) one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.""

THAT is the risk you face, given your TERMINATION THEOLOGY regarding Levitical priesthood Torah portions.

Let's stop opposing Torah portions.

Agreed?

 

"I have not taught others that any one of GOD's commands are removed."

Sure you have.  You teach that, in effect, any restoration of the Levitical Torah portions should NOT be obeyed.....yet Jesus will come and restore those very Levitical Torah portions (Mal.3:4)....and then what...you'll STILL oppose Jesus?  I sure hope not!

 

" GOD has instituted the Melchizedek priesthood as present reality.   "

GOD has instituted LEVITICAL Priesthood as ALSO extending into the New Covenant era (Ac.6:7;21:21,24;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;Heb.8:10;10:16)...after all, we are ALREADY in the New Covenant era....and these LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD prophecies are yet FUTURE (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Zec.6;Zec.14;Is.66;Mal.3:4).

 

" That priesthood exists now, as the only means of reconciliation (atonement) with GOD.  "

Levitical priesthood ALSO atones (Heb. " כָּפַר ")...and Jesus comes to RESTORE that very Levitical Priesthood (Mal.3:4) to fulfill many prophecies (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Is.66;Zec.6;Zec.14).

And the Levitical priesthood operates INTO the New Covenant era (Ac.6:7;21:21,24;Col.2:17;Heb.10:1;etc.)

 

"Access to a Levite priesthood has been impossible for almost 2000 years.  The LORD has allowed that. "

Of course.  It's our punishment for our disobedience.  That's WHY we are in diaspora...because we sinned. 

But don't worry!  We will again obey 100% of ALL Torah...the SAME TORAH as was commanded in Dt.30:1-8....just as Moses prophesied (Dt.30:1-8).  Moses did not lie.  And that includes LEVITICAL Torah portions.

 

"Those believers in Yeshua who are allowed to do so, will do so as a memorial to Him.  They will do so because they are seeking to fulfill TORAH.  I don't believe the LORD would punish them for such. "

Of course!  Yeshua fulfilled Torah...We SHOULD TOO (Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6).

 

"I also do not believe the LORD will punish those genuine believers who choose NOT to offer animal sacrifices, because of their beliefs - especially those who live far from the territory of Israel. "

You are responsible for what you can do...

If you CAN AND SHOULD do something, then it's SIN to not do so (Jas.4:17).

But if you're still stuck in diaspora....then obviously you can't do what you can't do.

 

"NO ONE will "survive" that day, unless removed from this planet!"

Doubt it.  There will still be NATIONS to serve ISRAEL....(Is.60:12)....so the nations obviously did not all die.

 

blessings...

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16 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

even the NEW EARTH has LEVITICAL sacrifices (Is.66:21-23).

BibleGuy,  I find it difficult to read through you respond posts.  You repeat things I have posted, without putting those things in the quote box.  It's hard to distinguish quickly between what I said, and what you are saying in reply. 

Anyway.  I totally disagree with your statement in the box above.  And STOP saying that I'm on the side of the Antichrist!  That's just mean!  It's not a good way to win an argument, much less to continue polite discussion. 

Isaiah 66:20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 "And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. (NKJ)

This text says that people - "your brethren" - will be brought like an offering. 

Some of them - the LORD will take for priests and for Levites.    Your understanding of this depends on your viewpoint.  I understand Isaiah to say the LORD will take some of these "brothers" (fellow believers in Yeshua) for priests (not necessarily Aaronic priests),   and "for Levites" (meaning they will serve like the Levites once served, as persons to serve the LORD at His Temple).  In Isaiah's day the Levites were non-priests who served at the Temple.  Aaron had 2 brothers who were also sons of Levi.  But only Aaron and his descendants were chosen as priests. 

32 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

Sure you have.  You teach that, in effect, any restoration of the Levitical Torah portions should NOT be obeyed.....yet Jesus will come and restore those very Levitical Torah portions (Mal.3:4)....and then what...you'll STILL oppose Jesus?  I sure hope not!

WHEN the earth (and the Jerusalem Temple) is completely "burned up".  WHEN Jesus stands on this earth, if HE then instructs all men to bring animals, to kill them, and to present their blood to HIS Father GOD, THEN I will do so.   But I do not believe such will ever happen.  

36 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

"NO ONE will "survive" that day, unless removed from this planet!"

Doubt it.  There will still be NATIONS to serve ISRAEL....(Is.60:12)....so the nations obviously did not all die.

 

Just because they die at the Return, doesn't mean they cannot be resurrected, and constitute "nations in the four corners of the earth" who will live under the ruler-ship of Christ and His "kings and priests". 

At the Glorious Return:  (1)  the redeemed will be made immortal,  (2)  the rebellious wicked will be judged and annihilated  (3)  "the rest"  will remain asleep in death for another 1000 years, to be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  Then all your verses describing "nations" who serve Israel, will come to pass.

"The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished"  (Rev 20:5).  

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30 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

Did Christ fulfill TORAH?  Answer:  Yes!  He was obedient unto death.  He perfectly fulfilled the terms of the covenant and will therefore legally receive the reward of the covenant - the land. 

"Fulfill" Strong's #4137, meaning to accomplish or to complete. 

Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."

"Accomplished" - Strong's #1096, meaning: to come into being, to happen, to become.

Two different words are used.  One tells us that Christ would accomplish something, or complete something.  (Jesus cried out "it is finished".) 

Folks, lurkers, this is the Truth, ...this is what we, who are born again, Blood Bought children of God John 1:12 believe and hold on to, cling to, ...in faith, ...the just live by faith, Hab 2:4 ...not by works Eph 2:9

Please notice how verses are "cherry picked" (not saying you RP) by those that want to present their agenda,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  Matt 5:17

As has been pointed out Jesus used two words in this verse, abolish and fulfill, ...so has the "Torah" been abolished(?) ...NO, ...has the "Torah" been fulfilled(?) ...YES! 

But Jesus also said:

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.  Matt 5:18

There is a third word added to abolish and fulfilled, ...accomplished...

Did Jesus "fulfill" the Torah, ...we must answer honestly, ...YES!

Has the Torah been "abolished" ...NO, ...has the "purpose" for which it was given been "accomplished" ...NO!

What is the "purpose" of the Torah? 

Wherefore the Law (Torah)was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  Gal 3:24

Are we, born again Blood Bought children of God, ...justified by Faith, ...Yes, has the Torah been "fulfilled" for us, ...Yes

Then, since the Torah has NOT been "abolished" that means there are still some that need to be "justified" by Faith in our savior Jesus Christ.

There are still some in this present Church Age that need to be "justified" by faith in Jesus Christ, so for them the Torah has not yet been "accomplished."

There will be some, during the last seven years left of Daniel's 70 Week prophecy, that will "wash" their robes and be "justified" by faith in Jesus Christ, ...for those the Torah will be "fulfilled."

And then during the Millennium the Torah will be in it's full force, the "schoolmaster" to bring those that believe to be "justified" by faith in Jesus Christ.

Then comes the end, ...Heaven and Earth will "roll up" as a scroll, ...a New Heaven and a New Earth will be created and those that "inhabit" it will all be "justified" by faith in Jesus Christ.

So , ...remember what Jesus said:

...until all is accomplished. Matt 5:18

...for those (saints) in the New Heavens and the New Earth the Torah has been "accomplished," so there is no longer any need for a "schoolmaster" to lead anyone to Christ to be "justified" by faith, ...the Torah, and even the "iota" and the "dot" will have passed away, ...just like our Jesus said!

Lord bless

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