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Israel according to the flesh, Israel in Spirit


JohnD

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First I would point out that DNA Hebrews who do not believe in Yeshua as God's Son and Messiah, are NOT ATTACHED to the "Olive Tree".  They are broken off branches.  90% of the population of Jews in the current state of Israel are secular.  They might keep the Feasts, but only because they are traditional. 

Satan knows the prophecies far better than any man, or council of men.  Satan has been working for a long time, to bring about a masterpiece of deception which will deceive those of every nation on the planet - even "the very elect" if possible. 

I believe Satan will use the modern state of Israel to "fulfill" the ancient prophecies.  All the "nations" around her will come up to attack, and then "the Lord" will powerfully defend her, causing fire "from heaven" to destroy her enemies, and almost the entire Middle East.  Then a new Temple will be restored, and sacrifices restored.  Then a magnificent being will appear in that Temple, claiming to be Messiah (for the Jews), Christ returned (for the Christians), and the expected "messiah" figure for every religion.  And while he's at it, a returned alien for all the atheists and naturalists.  

Everyone on this planet will serve him EXCEPT those with the seal of God.  They will know who he really is. 

Satan knows that folks are expecting 7 last plagues.  He will make sure there are plagues before his appearance.  (They will be the trumpet judgments.  Notice how the trumpets cause the destruction of 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.  That tells you Satan is behind them.  He drew 1/3 of the stars of heaven.) 

PS:  I've no problem with Jews having a homeland, after 2000 years of persecution.  No problem at all. 

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44 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

First I would point out that DNA Hebrews who do not believe in Yeshua as God's Son and Messiah, are NOT ATTACHED to the "Olive Tree".  They are broken off branches.  90% of the population of Jews in the current state of Israel are secular.  They might keep the Feasts, but only because they are traditional. 

Satan knows the prophecies far better than any man, or council of men.  Satan has been working for a long time, to bring about a masterpiece of deception which will deceive those of every nation on the planet - even "the very elect" if possible. 

I believe Satan will use the modern state of Israel to "fulfill" the ancient prophecies.  All the "nations" around her will come up to attack, and then "the Lord" will powerfully defend her, causing fire "from heaven" to destroy her enemies, and almost the entire Middle East.  Then a new Temple will be restored, and sacrifices restored.  Then a magnificent being will appear in that Temple, claiming to be Messiah (for the Jews), Christ returned (for the Christians), and the expected "messiah" figure for every religion.  And while he's at it, a returned alien for all the atheists and naturalists.  

Everyone on this planet will serve him EXCEPT those with the seal of God.  They will know who he really is. 

Satan knows that folks are expecting 7 last plagues.  He will make sure there are plagues before his appearance.  (They will be the trumpet judgments.  Notice how the trumpets cause the destruction of 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.  That tells you Satan is behind them.  He drew 1/3 of the stars of heaven.) 

PS:  I've no problem with Jews having a homeland, after 2000 years of persecution.  No problem at all. 

 

"First I would point out that DNA Hebrews who do not believe in Yeshua as God's Son and Messiah, are NOT ATTACHED to the "Olive Tree".  They are broken off branches.  90% of the population of Jews in the current state of Israel are secular.  They might keep the Feasts, but only because they are traditional. "

 

Yes....and I doubt we have good proof that they are really "DNA HEBREWS" anyway.....not that it matters....because Israel was NEVER uniquely limited to DNA.....but it has been Gentile inclusive since AT LEAST Sinai (e.g., Dt. 29;Dt. 31).

 

"I believe Satan will use the modern state of Israel to "fulfill" the ancient prophecies.  All the "nations" around her will come up to attack, and then "the Lord" will powerfully defend her, causing fire "from heaven" to destroy her enemies, and almost the entire Middle East.  Then a new Temple will be restored, and sacrifices restored.  Then a magnificent being will appear in that Temple, claiming to be Messiah (for the Jews), Christ returned (for the Christians), and the expected "messiah" figure for every religion.  And while he's at it, a returned alien for all the atheists and naturalists. "

Entirely plausible....we'll have to wait and see...

 

"Everyone on this planet will serve him EXCEPT those with the seal of God.  They will know who he really is. "

And our knowledge of TORAH may be KEY to identifying this COUNTERFEIT MESSIAH...after all, the "man of sin" is ANTI-TORAH.....so OPPOSITION to sacrifices will prove that the anti-Christ is EVIL.

Anti-christ OPPOSES Torah sacrifices (Da.9:27).  Jesus Christ RESTORES sacrifices (Mal.3:4).

BIG difference!

 

"Everyone on this planet will serve him EXCEPT those with the seal of God.  They will know who he really is. "

I once heard of a passage in the Prophets which suggests that antichrist does NOT gain complete world control...but that there are some isolated hold-outs....I don't recall the passage though....I think it might have been in reference to somewhere in the vicinity of Jordan.....perhaps this is confirmed in Rev.12.....

 

"PS:  I've no problem with Jews having a homeland, after 2000 years of persecution.  No problem at all. "

And it's your homeland too! (Gal.3:29;Mt.5:5;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.36:24;37:12)....After all, YOU are Israelite! (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Hos.1+Rom.11:26-27;Eph.2:12).

 

blessings...

 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

And it's your homeland too! (Gal.3:29;Mt.5:5;Dt.30:1-8;Eze.36:24;37:12)....After all, YOU are Israelite! (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Hos.1+Rom.11:26-27;Eph.2:12).

Thanks.

The state of Israel may re-institute sacrifices at a rebuilt Temple, but how can the LORD accept the sacrifices of a people who have rejected His own Son.  Even today, before one can become "Jewish" or a citizen of that state, one must renounce Jesus specifically and by name as Messiah, and/or God's "only begotten son". 

Isaiah 29:13 Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, (NAS)

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19 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Thanks.

The state of Israel may re-institute sacrifices at a rebuilt Temple, but how can the LORD accept the sacrifices of a people who have rejected His own Son.  Even today, before one can become "Jewish" or a citizen of that state, one must renounce Jesus specifically and by name as Messiah, and/or God's "only begotten son". 

Isaiah 29:13 Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, (NAS)

" The state of Israel may re-institute sacrifices at a rebuilt Temple, but how can the LORD accept the sacrifices of a people who have rejected His own Son.  "

We had the same problem 2000 years ago.

The sacrificial system (and the religious system, in general) was infected with corrupted religious leaders (e.g, Mt.3:7;Mk.7;Mt.23).

Yet Yeshua STILL commanded participation in the sacrifices (Mt.5:24;Mk.11:17 citing Is.56:7;Mt.5:19).

Yeshua STILL commanded obedience to all Torah (Mt.23:23), thus including sacrifices.

Yeshua STILL commanded obedience to proper Torah judgments, EVEN THOUGH they were issued by corrupted judges (Mt.23:3).

 

So, this confirms that we don't just sit around and wait until the Levitical system is completely and properly restored by the Messiah when He returns (Mal.3:4).

Rather, it confirms that even BEFORE He returns, it is good and proper to pursue the proper functioning of the Levitical system, even partaking in it, given that Yeshua desires participation in that system even when it is not perfected.

 

And sure enough, we see THOUSANDS of 1st-century Christians zealous for participation in the Levitical/ceremonial/sacrificial system (Ac.21:20).

We even see animal-sacrificing Christian priests (Ac.6:7).

We even see PAUL condoning an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to confirm he "walks orderly, keeping the law" (Ac.21:24), implying he properly obeys sacrificial Torah portions.

AND!  Paul requires that we imitate this sacrifice-compliant Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

After all, Paul never said that shadow is terminated.  Paul tells us the shadow CONTINUES! (PRESENT tense, Col.2:17).  The writer of Hebrews agrees (PRESENT TENSE, Heb.10:1).

 

" Even today, before one can become "Jewish" or a citizen of that state, one must renounce Jesus specifically and by name as Messiah, and/or God's "only begotten son". "

And if the ultra-Orthodox in Israel get their way, then they will continued to exempt themselves from obligation for IDF service...

And they will EXPAND the extent of the enforcement of their religious perspective nationally, thus reducing IDF service requirements, thus placing Israel at greater threat from enemies, at which point Israel may find itself desperate to welcome Jewish-Messianic mixed families (or even purely Messianic mixed families) to make aliyah on the condition they serve in the IDF to protect Israel....the point being that Israel could always CHANGE their laws if they get desperate.....and, given Dt. 30:1-8, we KNOW that the laws will eventually change....we WILL eventually return....but the fact that it's almost impossible for us to all return right now simply confirms that we are not very close to the fulfillment of Dt. 30:1-8 and Jer.16:15-16....personally, I think it could be several centuries.....easily.

 

"Isaiah 29:13 Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, (NAS)"

Yes...we want a proper heart-condition in the Lord's sight.

 

blessings...

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On 12/14/2019 at 10:23 AM, BibleGuy said:

So you're right...there's also the gift of faith as well.

Two sides of a coin....

BibleGuy, 

Is it fair of me to say that you are more focused on the DO IT side of the coin, as opposed to the RECEIVE IT side? 

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The priesthood, sacrifices, and circumcision of the "First" Covenant WERE SYMBOLIC.  They pointed forward to Christ and Him crucified.  There IS a "sacrifice" in Heaven - The "Lamb of God".   I do not believe that God wants the system of animal blood and carcasses to be continued - literally - in His forever kingdom.  I just don't. 

The first strong hint of the "change" - I believe - was Christ's own command that His followers "eat this bread" and "drink this cup" to "show the LORD's death til He come" (not - til another Temple is erected).

Christ could have commanded that his followers "eat this lamb".  But He didn't.  If the "bread" and the "cup" of Passover are all we need to commemorate our LORD's death, how could I believe a movement that tells me, "No.  You need to kill and roast a lamb and be careful not to break a bone."  It just doesn't ring true in my mind or spirit.  (Yes.  I know.  Only after the Temple is restored on the Mount at Jerusalem. Assuming they would even let "Christians" in there.) 

At my home, we eat the "bread" and drink "the cup" at a Passover meal, once each year.  We understand it to be a renewal of covenant.   I personally don't understand the reasoning behind communion once a quarter, or once a week, or Mass daily.  I don't personally get that. 

I believe the Ten Commandments are for all human beings - including the Sabbath of the 7th Day.  Those commandments constitute a promise of what Christ will do - in us.  

I find it puzzling that most Christian churches today readily teach 8 of those commandments.   The Catholics took out the one against images, and made the last one into 2.  Very few teach the Rest of the 7th Day, even though the LORD declared that day holy at the end of creation week (a looooong time before Mt Sinai).   

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8 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

BibleGuy, 

Is it fair of me to say that you are more focused on the DO IT side of the coin, as opposed to the RECEIVE IT side? 

Yes....because NOT every believer has the same GIFTS (1Cor.7:7).

Whereas, the FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE concept applies to us all (Rom.1:5;16:26;2Ti.3:16;Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20+Mt.23:23).

blessings..

 

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8 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The priesthood, sacrifices, and circumcision of the "First" Covenant WERE SYMBOLIC.  They pointed forward to Christ and Him crucified.  There IS a "sacrifice" in Heaven - The "Lamb of God".   I do not believe that God wants the system of animal blood and carcasses to be continued - literally - in His forever kingdom.  I just don't. 

The first strong hint of the "change" - I believe - was Christ's own command that His followers "eat this bread" and "drink this cup" to "show the LORD's death til He come" (not - til another Temple is erected).

Christ could have commanded that his followers "eat this lamb".  But He didn't.  If the "bread" and the "cup" of Passover are all we need to commemorate our LORD's death, how could I believe a movement that tells me, "No.  You need to kill and roast a lamb and be careful not to break a bone."  It just doesn't ring true in my mind or spirit.  (Yes.  I know.  Only after the Temple is restored on the Mount at Jerusalem. Assuming they would even let "Christians" in there.) 

At my home, we eat the "bread" and drink "the cup" at a Passover meal, once each year.  We understand it to be a renewal of covenant.   I personally don't understand the reasoning behind communion once a quarter, or once a week, or Mass daily.  I don't personally get that. 

I believe the Ten Commandments are for all human beings - including the Sabbath of the 7th Day.  Those commandments constitute a promise of what Christ will do - in us.  

I find it puzzling that most Christian churches today readily teach 8 of those commandments.   The Catholics took out the one against images, and made the last one into 2.  Very few teach the Rest of the 7th Day, even though the LORD declared that day holy at the end of creation week (a looooong time before Mt Sinai).   

Yes, symbolic....but not to the exclusion or termination of the literal.

And let's not say CHANGE....let's say ENHANCEMENT.  ALL Torah is still in force...and will be obeyed in the future (Dt.30:1-8), including animal sacrifices (Dt.30:1-8;Mal.3:4;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Zec.6;Zec.14;Is.66).  There's lots of LITERAL animal-sacrifices prophesied for the future in these passages!

 

"Christ could have commanded that his followers "eat this lamb".  But He didn't. "

Sure He did.  Mt. 5:19 includes obeying Pesach.  It's for all believers (Mt.28:19-20).  Paul requires Pesach too (1Cor.5:7-8).

 

"I believe the Ten Commandments are for all human beings - including the Sabbath of the 7th Day.  "

Rather, they are now a Covenant between God and ISRAEL (Dt.4:13)....not God and everybody.

Yes, the door is presently open to EVERYBODY to join Israel....but that door will close.

 

Join Israel now!

Or SERVE Israel later (Is.60:12).

 

blessings...

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17 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

ALL Torah is still in force...and will be obeyed in the future (Dt.30:1-8), including animal sacrifices (Dt.30:1-8;Mal.3:4;Eze.40-47;Jer.33;Zec.6;Zec.14;Is.66).  There's lots of LITERAL animal-sacrifices prophesied for the future in these passages!

I believe the LITERAL of the First Covenant, SYMBOLIZED the REALITY of New Covenant.  That is how I read those prophecies.  I read the real one, and see the one to come.

I do NOT believe that one is ADDED on top of the other.  I believe that the NEW replaces the FIRST.  If you want to call that "replacement theology" - so be it. 

But it's not "replacement".  A butterfly does not "replace" the caterpillar.  Rather one grows into the other, by a miracle of God.  The empty shell is just left - empty.  It has no function once the butterfly has emerged.  I see the prophetic animal blood sacrifices much like that butterfly cocoon.  Something necessary for the process. 

The LITERAL stones symbolized the "hard" hearts of stone - of His "first wife" (Hagar the slave).   When the LORD has given Israel (Sarah - his new wife) "hearts of flesh" then His Law can be "written" on those hearts of flesh.  Then there will be no further need for the literal stones with commandments written on them.   That is why no one will visit the Ark of the Covenant any longer (Jer. 3:16).   In the future kingdom, they will come before Yeshua and His Father [the REAL "Ark" and "Temple"] at the New Jerusalem (which was SYMBOLIZED by the LITERAL Jerusalem of the First Covenant).   

One was A PROPHECY of the other. 

You keep saying - the "whole TORAH" will be kept.   Yes - but NOT the LITERAL TORAH of the First Covenant.  The whole TORAH - that "First Covenant" - symbolized something - something future.  I believe that the whole FUTURE TORAH - will be our reality (not the symbolic one).  The "first" will bear about as much resemblance to the "new" as a caterpillar bears to the butterfly. 

You keep saying we will keep the caterpillar.   Yes.  We will.  But it will look like a butterfly. 

You quote the prophecies and see the caterpillar.   I read the prophecies and see the butterfly. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I believe the LITERAL of the First Covenant, SYMBOLIZED the REALITY of New Covenant.  That is how I read those prophecies.  I read the real one, and see the one to come.

I do NOT believe that one is ADDED on top of the other.  I believe that the NEW replaces the FIRST.  If you want to call that "replacement theology" - so be it. 

But it's not "replacement".  A butterfly does not "replace" the caterpillar.  Rather one grows into the other, by a miracle of God.  The empty shell is just left - empty.  It has no function once the butterfly has emerged.  I see the prophetic animal blood sacrifices much like that butterfly cocoon.  Something necessary for the process. 

The LITERAL stones symbolized the "hard" hearts of stone - of His "first wife" (Hagar the slave).   When the LORD has given Israel (Sarah - his new wife) "hearts of flesh" then His Law can be "written" on those hearts of flesh.  Then there will be no further need for the literal stones with commandments written on them.   That is why no one will visit the Ark of the Covenant any longer (Jer. 3:16).   In the future kingdom, they will come before Yeshua and His Father [the REAL "Ark" and "Temple"] at the New Jerusalem (which was SYMBOLIZED by the LITERAL Jerusalem of the First Covenant).   

One was A PROPHECY of the other. 

You keep saying - the "whole TORAH" will be kept.   Yes - but NOT the LITERAL TORAH of the First Covenant.  The whole TORAH - that "First Covenant" - symbolized something - something future.  I believe that the whole FUTURE TORAH - will be our reality (not the symbolic one).  The "first" will bear about as much resemblance to the "new" as a caterpillar bears to the butterfly. 

You keep saying we will keep the caterpillar.   Yes.  We will.  But it will look like a butterfly. 

You quote the prophecies and see the caterpillar.   I read the prophecies and see the butterfly. 

 

 

Yes, the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant (Heb.8:13).

But!

The SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16;Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20).

 

And, let's not call this "replacement theology"!    Because, "replacement theology" (a.k.a. "supersessionism") is the idea that the "church" replaces "Israel".....and of course, "replacement theology" (i.e., "supersessionism") is false.

 

"Then there will be no further need for the literal stones with commandments written on them.   "

That's because we will be already be CHOOSING TO OBEY those SAME TORAH COMMANDS.....thus they are still in force.

 

"That is why no one will visit the Ark of the Covenant any longer (Jer. 3:16).  "

Well...that's a different issue.....I'm thinking that Torah ALLOWS (but does not REQUIRE) the ark.....in which case the neglect of the ark in the future (Jer.3:16) does NOT in an way suggest that any Torah portion is cancelled or terminated.

 

" In the future kingdom"

In the future kingdom, we inherit the promised land and obey 100% of ALL Torah (Dt.30:1-8)....the SAME TORAH that was commanded on that day by Moses.

 

 

"The whole TORAH - that "First Covenant" - symbolized something - something future.  "

And Moses tells us that the FUTURE Torah-obedience will be obedience to the SAME COMMANDS THAT WERE COMMANDED BY MOSES ON THAT DAY (Dt.30:2,8).

 

"One was A PROPHECY of the other. "

And Moses prophesies of the SAME TORAH COMMANDED BY  MOSES ON THAT DAY MOSES WAS SPEAKING (Dt.30:2,8).

 

"You quote the prophecies and see the caterpillar.   I read the prophecies and see the butterfly. "

WRONG analogy.

Scripture uses the SHADOW analogy (Col.2:17;Heb.10:1).  The shadow IS (PRESENT TENSE in Col.2:17;Heb.10:1) STILL in operation even in the New Covenant era.

 

SHADOW = Torah of Moses

SUBSTANCE = Christ

 

When you see a tree.....then BEHOLD!  THE SHADOW IS STILL THERE!

 

" I read the prophecies and see the butterfly."

I see the SUBSTANCE (Christ) who CONTINUES to cast the shadow (TORAH)....because otherwise:

1. Moses is a false prophet (Dt.30:1-8)

2. Jesus made a mistake (Mt.5:19+Mt.28:19-20)

3. The apostles were wrong (Mt.23:34;2Ti.3:16;1Jn.5:3;Ac.6:10-15;1Pe.1:16)

 

Sorry....I'm a Bible Guy.....I'm not going to look at a tree and then pretend the shadow is gone.....

The shadow IS.  

 

After all, Torah was widely DISOBEYED in the Old Covenant (Heb.8:9).

And the SAME TORAH is properly OBEYED in the New Covenant (Heb.8:10).

 

"You quote the prophecies and see the caterpillar.   I read the prophecies and see the butterfly. "

Rather, I quote the prophecies and see BOTH the tree AND its shadow, as Scripture requires.

You read the prophecies and see ONLY the tree (and ignore the shadow), contrary to Scripture.

 

Well ok....I guess you see my viewpoint maybe a little better now....

blessings...

 

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