Does Daniel 9:26b-27 Prophesy About End Time Events?

[OldCoot]

On 12/12/2019 at 3:15 PM, WilliamL said:

2) Daniel 11:40-45 does say that an End Time commander/leader, “the King of the North,” shall enter and occupy the Holy Land. But nothing in that passage speaks anything about a Temple – a notable omission, if one were to actually exist.

You must  have  missed  Daniel 11:29 onward, which specifically ties into Matthew 24, Daniel 9 and many other yet future passages together. And it is because there has been no temple since 70AD, that there has been no daily sacrifice. Yet, In Daniel 11:31 it says this character will take away the daily sacrifice and put up the Abomination of Desolation in its place.  The latter did not occur in 70AD so it is yet future. There has to be a temple in place for that to occur once again.  Folks are not  authorized to pile a bunch of stones in their back yard and sacrifice without being in violation of the the covenant.  The Law is specific.

Daniel assumes that those familiar with the Covenant (Daniel's people - who this section is referring to) know these things so it  is not necessary for the text to start out all over again explaining things about the temple and literally mentioning  it.  The scripture many times assumes the reader already knows certain  details.   So it is not a "notable omission".  Daniel assumes the reader is not a newbie to these things.  Folks should have already gone to grammar school (scripturally) by reading about the temple and Israel prior to the Babylonian Exile and the time Daniel is writing this.

  

[OldCoot]

On 12/13/2019 at 11:05 AM, Justin Adams said:

Daniel's vision(s) was finished at the Cross and Pentecost. Revelation happened by 70 AD.

You are assuming a gap between the 69th week (Yeshua's crucifixion) and the destruction of the temple in 70AD.  The very same thing that Preterists accuse futurists of.  The weeks are contiguous or they are not.  And it is obvious  they  are not contiguous so then we can only  determine the interval between the 69th and 70th week from the rest of scripture.   But the Abomination of Desolation was never set up in the Holy Place (Holy of Holies), as per Yeshua, before it was destroyed in 70AD.  

And  given that Revelation was written long after the  Temple was destroyed in 70AD, and  is well confirmed by many archeologists and early church writers, there is  no way  that Revelation was fulfilled in  70AD.   I look around and I still don't see a new heaven and new earth let alone evidence that 1/2 of the worlds population (1/4 and 1/3 at a time) was killed off in a relatively  short period of time. Neither back then or even in WW II.  

To even remotely  arrive at a Preterist conclusion requires allegorizing the scripture to extremes to be almost unrecognizable.  Just like a  ammillenial view has to do.  Though on that count, there is not much difference between those positions.  Virtually  all the early  church  writers were unequivocally  pre-millennial.  You know, the guys who actually knew  the Apostles or had close association with those who did know the apostles.  Abherent eschatology did not start getting a foot hold till the Alexandrian Theology school started kicking its stuff into the mix.  Everything from Gnostic philosophy to allegorization of scripture.

[OldCoot]

On 12/13/2019 at 1:05 PM, Justin Adams said:

it is mostly written as an apocalyptic set of visions that are not literal, but symbolic. Telling one from another is possible but like so many parts of the scriptures, there is more impact if a vision or set of visions are not dissected in too literal a fashion

Except that  Revelation is 404 verses that have over 800 OT references.  Using the scripture hermeneutic principles of Law of First Mention and Expositional Constancy, it is not hard at all to see what the imagery of Revelation is.  Only when one discounts the OT do they start to stumble around in the dark trying to figure out the imagery.

[Uriah]

On 12/13/2019 at 2:05 PM, Justin Adams said:

Revelation has mostly happened. There are a few outliers but it is mostly written as an apocalyptic set of visions that are not literal, but symbolic. 

Hi JA

I have seen this many times before. Things that are symbolic....actually symbolize.....something literal. But I have not heard much about the real things that people say are symbolic. Can YOU clarify. Because if it IS a prophecy, it must have a literal fulfillment-like all the other prophecies.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Uriah
sp, clarify, used word twice

[WilliamL]

On 12/23/2019 at 12:39 PM, Da Puppers said:

#1.  Cyrus issued his decree to rebuild   Jerusalem 66.5 years after the desolation of Jerusalem.

Ezra 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Cyrus commanded nothing about rebuilding the city, only the Temple. The commands "to restore and to build Jerusalem unto an Anointed One" prophesied by Daniel 9:25 were not made by Cyrus, they were made by Artaxerxes I.

[WilliamL]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:35 AM, OldCoot said:

You must  have  missed  Daniel 11:29 onward, which specifically ties into Matthew 24, Daniel 9 and many other yet future passages together. And it is because there has been no temple since 70AD, that there has been no daily sacrifice. Yet, In Daniel 11:31 it says this character will take away the daily sacrifice and put up the Abomination of Desolation in its place.

Daniel 11:31 was specifically about Antiochus Epiphanes and his abomination of desolation of the Jewish temple in 168 BC.

That verse has no direct prophetic link to Matthew 24, which is End Times, nor to Daniel 9, which was first century AD. We have gone over this before.

If you ignore history and context, you cannot understand Bible prophecy, because you then can read anything you want into passages.

Which so many people do, of course. Which is why there are so many false teachers and teachings floating around.

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 11:31 was specifically about Antiochus Epiphanes and his abomination of desolation of the Jewish temple in 168 BC.

That verse has no direct prophetic link to Matthew 24, which is End Times, nor to Daniel 9, which was first century AD. We have gone over this before.

Well, maybe.  But Yeshua went over it long before you showed up, and did so after Antiochus did his thing, so Yeshua seemed to think it applied to the time of the end.   And it certainly doesn't apply to the Romans, as they stopped the daily sacrifices, but they did not put the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple.    They destroyed the temple getting after the gold.

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

And that is mentioned in Daniel 11:31 as well as Daniel 12:11.  Both within the same context of describing details of that.  The key tie in being Daniel 12:1 showing the continuation of the subject....

Daniel 12:1 (NKJV) "At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

"At that time" refers to the time being described that preceded that statement. Basic grammar.  So the two chapters are inextricably linked as one.  

And I know it should be understood by all of us, but it seems not to be so it bears worth repeating.... when Daniel wrote his book, he did not include chapter and verse divisions.  They came much  later.  And the same descriptions of things continues into Chapter 12, which continues  on regarding the end time period, breaking it down.   Chapters 11 and 12 are unified.

And  also bears repeating, many prophecies have dual fulfillments.   Prophecy is pattern as well as fulfillment.    And the descriptions in Daniel 11-12 mirror descriptions of the son of perdition / antichrist character in the NT.  

So... we have gone over it again.  And Yeshua makes the case that it applies to the end and not just to Antiochus.  So let's see... should I believe your analysis or Yeshua's...... no brainer.  I will take Yeshua's analysis.

While not a master, I do understand most of the basic concepts to Bible prophecy.  And I know how to apply proper hermeneutics to what I am reading, which is the key to getting things in their proper order.

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

On 12/26/2019 at 2:56 PM, OldCoot said:

So... we have gone over it again.  And Yeshua makes the case that it applies to the end and not just to Antiochus.  So let's see... should I believe your analysis or Yeshua's...... no brainer.  I will take Yeshua's analysis.

Yeshua said nothing at all about the abomination made by Antiochus having anything to do with His prophecy. If you want to presume this, that is  your prerogative. The road to false interpretation is filled with presumptions.

[WilliamL]

On 12/27/2019 at 12:03 AM, Da Puppers said:

The 70 week prophecy that was given to Daniel concerns "finishing the transgression ", aka the unfulfilled desolations of Jerusalem. 

False. The pesha/transgression/apostasy referred to in Daniel 9:24 has nothing to do with "the unfulfilled desolations of Jerusalem." Gabriel told Daniel,

Daniel 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 ...therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision...

What vision? the vision of Daniel 8, from which Daniel fainted before he received understanding from Gabriel at that time. And the vision of Daniel 8 has NOTHING to do with Cyrus.

[OldCoot]

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Yeshua said nothing at all about the abomination made by Antiochus having anything to do with His prophecy. If you want to presume this, that is  your prerogative. The road to false interpretation is filled with presumptions.

Matthew 24:15 (NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand)

uh... Right.