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1 Corinthians 11 1-16 Should women wear prayer veils?


Servant of the Lord

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so sad...

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My understanding of the scriptures is yes women should veil themselves in christian gatherings.I find it also easier tell Muslims and Jews about Jesus as they have a similar custom,but with different meaning as to why they do it.I read that Muslims actually got head covering from Byzantine Christians,but I see in many cultures its quite normal like India and even in Africa some women do it.Its a obedience issue not a salvation issue. If I'm in a church that doesn't do it .I try to be more casual maybe use a beanie or chrochet hat but I think a shawl/veil is what Paul meant.I find it strange that it is not practiced so much.The orthodox churches do this and Armenian.Some churches I feel quite uncomfortable if they don't do it.thank you for all you wrote it was an interesting read.I came across this in the bible and like I came across baptism I think both are to be observed when possible and neccicary

I do think all things need to be considered about hair length ,age ,diseases ,etc.like in cancer patients or something grace needs to be shown to all and love.And the hearts need to be right or it can become a legalistic thing.head covering also goes with modest apparel and not to have broided hair it covers a lot of women's issues.the more I think about it. Reading the topic was very well put together thank you my brother

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3 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

And if I may get this off my chest as well.......Paul always spoke of the relationship of men and women in a single teaching, he didn't put the women over in one corner and give them a list of their exclusive rules and roles, while putting the men in a separate lonely corner across the room with their exclusive list.  But he spoke of these things together.  Marriage is a relationship between two people.....if we do this wrong, we will have a situation where a man never picks up a dish towel to give his wife a hand, not to mention his companionship, in the kitchen, and we will have women refusing to listen to their husbands talk about their challenges at work and offer their support and advice.  It would be a recipe for DIS unity in the marriage.  Notice also how Paul always gave equal weight to how both husbands and wives should be.  There so often seems to be an emphasis on the women submitting to and respecting their husbands with only token mention of how husbands need to love and honour their wives, if at all.  It even seems to me that if husbands are the head of the wife, then they should really be the ones leading, yes?  and setting the right example.  And since marriage is a relationship of two becoming one, then these things need to be taught accordingly, like Paul did.....rather beautifully and not in a dogmatic manner, if we can but see this.

 

Yes, women are told to “ submit” to their husbands. That is just “ half” of God’s equation. Men are to Love their wives as “ Christ loved His Church”. Christ gave His life for the Church.The lesson here is for a man to treat his wife like GOLD! Women just might naturally “ desire” to submit to a man that does HIS part...

 

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8 hours ago, Servant of the Lord said:

Charles Spurgeon, Dr. Ryrie, Dr. John Phillips Dr. R.C. Sproul these are some of the best theologians support 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 head coverings for women while praying or prophesying in corporate worship.

Best theologians ..Jesus and Paul Peter James John Mathew Luke Mark etc.?

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3 hours ago, Christdiedforoursins said:

Best theologians ..Jesus and Paul Peter James John Mathew Luke Mark etc.?

So true.. I meant after... Theologians commenting on their work via written commentary series/volumes; such as those I posted for educational purposes and to try to make certain things clearer.

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4 hours ago, Christdiedforoursins said:

thank you for all you wrote it was an interesting read.

You are very welcome :-)

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7 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

And if I may get this off my chest as well.......Paul always spoke of the relationship of men and women in a single teaching, he didn't put the women over in one corner and give them a list of their exclusive rules and roles, while putting the men in a separate lonely corner across the room with their exclusive list.  But he spoke of these things together.  Marriage is a relationship between two people.....if we do this wrong, we will have a situation where a man never picks up a dish towel to give his wife a hand, not to mention his companionship, in the kitchen, and we will have women refusing to listen to their husbands talk about their challenges at work and offer their support and advice.  It would be a recipe for DIS unity in the marriage.  Notice also how Paul always gave equal weight to how both husbands and wives should be.  There so often seems to be an emphasis on the women submitting to and respecting their husbands with only token mention of how husbands need to love and honor their wives, if at all.  It even seems to me that if husbands are the head of the wife, then they should really be the ones leading, yes?  and setting the right example.  And since marriage is a relationship of two becoming one, then these things need to be taught accordingly, like Paul did.....rather beautifully and not in a dogmatic manner, if we can but see this.

Thank you for reading my posts Heleadethme. I agree and understand what you mean. Yet in 1 Corinthians 11 both men and women are given instructions on head coverings. 

As an aside, I also understand for some my posts in this thread might appear lengthy in nature.  The way this topic 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 is being presented in this thread might not be for everyone. Some might find extensive reading laborious while others many find it enjoyable. There is nothing wrong with either personality each has their own likes and dislikes.  Yet, this particular thread and the manner that I have been presenting the information has been on the lengthy side as I attempt to dive into greater detail on the subject 1 Corinthians 11 1 -16 head coverings for men and women during corporate worship. So with that in mind please bear with me beloved brothers and sisters in Christ.

The "short" answer to you post Heleadethme which I will try to relate back to the topic 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 would be:  Men and Women are equal in Gods eyes, but He has a certain order He wishes followed. For women to willingly take the subordinate role to the man, not due to inferiority but due to obedience to the wishes of God the Father.  Similar to the obedience displayed by Christ to the Father although both equal Christ willingly took the subordinate role which pleased his Father in Heaven. 

"God has His own order within the Godhead itself. This is not an order based on being. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each eternally, equally, and essentially God. What is revealed here is a voluntary subordination of Christ in terms of office. By virtue of the Incarnation He became man, although in no sense did He cease to be God. He "took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7), even though "being in the form of God, [he] thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (2:6). He became man in order to fulfill the law, to be man as God intended Man to be, and to carry out God's purpose in redemption. The Lord Jesus saw no reason for resenting the subordinate role He voluntarily assumed in becoming man. He could cheerfully say, "I do always those things that please [the Father]" (John 8:29)." John Phillips Commentary Series, The - Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary.

"By the same token the woman is answerable to the man. This does not imply male superiority, nor does it imply female inferiority. It simply states it to be a fact that, in their respective roles in society, in the home, and in the church, this is God's ordained order and state of affairs. No amount of argument is going to change it. All attempts to defy it can only lead to breakdown and chaos." John Phillips Commentary Series, The - Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary.

The "long" answer which I will try to relate back to the topic 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 would be:

Excerpt used for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY: John Phillips Commentary Series, The - Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary.

At issue here is the controversial matter of the woman's role in the church. Paul is accused of narrow-mindedness (although how anyone could be broader-minded than Paul is difficult to say) and of a bias against women (which is totally unfair, since no one was more courteous to women and considerate of women than Paul). What Paul does insist on is order in the church, order based on experience, common sense, observation, nature, and, above all, Scripture and divine revelation. Anyone who has a quarrel with the order, especially where men and women meet together on the grounds of a common salvation, upon which the apostle insists, have a quarrel not with him but with the Holy Spirit. Paul is not airing prejudice or male chauvinism in this passage. He is writing under the direct inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit, who certainly knows what is best for the church He created, and who makes no mistakes.

Paul begins with a word of commendation: "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you" (11:2). The word for ordinances is paradosis, usually used in a negative sense in the New Testament. It is used of "traditions," especially the traditions of the Jewish rabbis. The word is used here and in 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6, positively. It seems, when used in this way, to refer to church order and to the two specific ordinances the Lord did give to the church—baptism and the communion feast. Always eager to find something to praise, Paul commends the Corinthians for their exercise about these things. However, he evidently has weightier matters on his mind. His but rings out with haste, before the ink is dry on his commendation.

There follows a word of comprehension (1 Cor. 11:3-16), in which Paul develops the whole subject of the woman's role in the local church. Two subjects are discussed—headship (11:3-12) and hair (11:13-16). The headship of the man is made immediately and abundantly clear. The fact of man's headship is categorically declared (11:3). As to the human order of things, Paul says, "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man" (11:3a); and as to the higher order of things, "The head of Christ is God" (11:3b).

This brings us back to basics. God is a God of order (1 Cor. 14:40), an order that reaches back into His own nature. He insists on order in the universe. Science is predicated on the fact that this universe is based on order. This order extends into human affairs, to government, to the home, to the church. In terms of human life the woman has a head, the man; the man has a head, Christ, who by virtue of the fact that He is God, absolutely and eternally, takes priority and preeminence over the headship vested in the man. The man is answerable for his actions, ultimately and inescapably, to Christ.

By the same token the woman is answerable to the man. This does not imply male superiority, nor does it imply female inferiority. It simply states it to be a fact that, in their respective roles in society, in the home, and in the church, this is God's ordained order and state of affairs. No amount of argument is going to change it. All attempts to defy it can only lead to breakdown and chaos.

When a person purchases an appliance or a piece of equipment it normally comes with the manufacturer's instructions and warranty. Usually the warranty is valid only so long as the instructions are heeded. The manufacturer knows the nature and complexity of the equipment better than anyone. Alter all, he designed and made it. If the instructions come with the warning, "Press button 'A' before you press button 'B' " it is because of some basic requirement connected with the structure and nature of the machine. If a person reverses the order and insists on pressing button B before button A, and things go wrong, what can he expect? The instructions were clear and plain. Human life and society are far more complex than any man-made appliance. We would do well to heed the Maker's instructions. He categorically states that the head of the man is Christ and that the head of the woman is the man. That is the way things are. The feminist lobby, for all its noise, anger, organization, and resentment, is not going to change the way things are. This is true of society in general, the home in particular, and the church above all. In this chapter, of course, Paul is more concerned with order in the church.

He carries the principle of order even higher by affirming that even Christ has a head—God. He places this statement after the one which says that the head of the woman is the man, as though to soften any possible blow to the woman's pride.

God has His own order within the Godhead itself. This is not an order based on being. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each eternally, equally, and essentially God. What is revealed here is a voluntary subordination of Christ in terms of office. By virtue of the Incarnation He became man, although in no sense did He cease to be God. He "took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7), even though "being in the form of God, [he] thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (2:6). He became man in order to fulfill the law, to be man as God intended Man to be, and to carry out God's purpose in redemption. The Lord Jesus saw no reason for resenting the subordinate role He voluntarily assumed in becoming man. He could cheerfully say, "I do always those things that please [the Father]" (John 8:29).

So then, in the human order of things and in the highest order of things Paul establishes categorically the fact of headship. But he has only just begun. We note next that the fact of man's headship is correspondingly displayed (1 Cor. 11:4-7). First comes the principle (11:4-5). In the first place, the man must display his supremacy in the church: "Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head" (11:4). Since this statement follows right on from the previous one, it is evident that "his head," which he thus dishonors, is Christ. When a man takes a leading role in a church activity, such as praying or preaching, he is to leave his physical head uncovered in order to display his headship in spiritual things and in order to acknowledge the headship of Christ.

This is a very remarkable statement. In the synagogue exactly the opposite was enjoined. To this day a Jew, reading the Torah in the synagogue, puts on a cap known as a yarmulke. Some of the stricter Jews always cover their heads in public. The Jewish custom of the man covering his head when the Scriptures are read goes back before Paul's day. The Holy Spirit, by requiring the very opposite practice in the church, is evidently striking a blow at the Judaizers, who were forever trying to corrupt Christianity into a mere extension of what Paul calls elsewhere "the Jews' religion."

The "covering" to which Paul refers in verse 4 is technically a veil which covers the man's whole head and conceals all his hair. Possibly there were men in the Corinthian church who were going to this extreme of self-abnegation in worship, thinking they were pleasing God by such a display. Paul repudiates any such practice. The contrary was what was called for: the man must pray and preach with his head completely uncovered to display his headship and the Lord's.

By contrast, the woman must display her subordination in the church: "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven" (11:5). The woman's head, here, is the man. If and when a woman takes a public part in church worship she must cover her physical head in order to honor the man who is her spiritual head. By so covering her head she displays her subjection to the man and witnesses that she is functioning, in a public capacity, under the authority of the man.

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4 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Yes, women are told to “ submit” to their husbands. That is just “ half” of God’s equation. Men are to Love their wives as “ Christ loved His Church”. Christ gave His life for the Church.The lesson here is for a man to treat his wife like GOLD! Women just might naturally “ desire” to submit to a man that does HIS part...

 

:)   That deserves a smile.  Amen....and that is called dwelling with one's wife according to knowledge (of how to make her swoon), LOL.  Then she will be much more likely to happily follow her husband to the ends of the earth.  :)  I just hate the way some teach these things as if it's some kind of dreary drudgery and a curse instead of a joy and blessing....if Christ and His relationship to the church is a joy then so ought the Christian marriage relationship to be thought of.  Neither spouse should put stumbling blocks in each other's way, if each one does their best to be considerate and make an effort to give each other what each other needs...wife as a woman needs to feel loved, husband as a man needs to feel respected, and that way Christ is glorified.  There's no need to be "harrumphing" self-righteously at people when this is taught....that is a wrong spirit and not likely to bear good fruit.  (I'm not talking about this thread, but just what I heard recently and so often in the churches.)

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52 minutes ago, Servant of the Lord said:

Thank you for reading my posts Heleadethme. I agree and understand what you mean. Yet in 1 Corinthians 11 both men and women are given instructions on head coverings. 

As an aside, I also understand for some my posts in this thread might appear lengthy in nature.  The way this topic 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 is being presented in this thread might not be for everyone. Some might find extensive reading laborious while others many find it enjoyable. There is nothing wrong with either personality each has their own likes and dislikes.  Yet, this particular thread and the manner that I have been presenting the information has been on the lengthy side as I attempt to dive into greater detail on the subject 1 Corinthians 11 1 -16 head coverings for men and women during corporate worship. So with that in mind please bear with me beloved brothers and sisters in Christ.

The "short" answer to you post Heleadethme which I will try to relate back to the topic 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 would be:  Men and Women are equal in Gods eyes, but He has a certain order He wishes followed. For women to willingly take the subordinate role to the man, not due to inferiority but due to obedience to the wishes of God the Father.  Similar to the obedience displayed by Christ to the Father although both equal Christ willingly took the subordinate role which pleased his Father in Heaven. 

"God has His own order within the Godhead itself. This is not an order based on being. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each eternally, equally, and essentially God. What is revealed here is a voluntary subordination of Christ in terms of office. By virtue of the Incarnation He became man, although in no sense did He cease to be God. He "took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7), even though "being in the form of God, [he] thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (2:6). He became man in order to fulfill the law, to be man as God intended Man to be, and to carry out God's purpose in redemption. The Lord Jesus saw no reason for resenting the subordinate role He voluntarily assumed in becoming man. He could cheerfully say, "I do always those things that please [the Father]" (John 8:29)." John Phillips Commentary Series, The - Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary.

"By the same token the woman is answerable to the man. This does not imply male superiority, nor does it imply female inferiority. It simply states it to be a fact that, in their respective roles in society, in the home, and in the church, this is God's ordained order and state of affairs. No amount of argument is going to change it. All attempts to defy it can only lead to breakdown and chaos." John Phillips Commentary Series, The - Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary.

Amen to your post ( I didn't quote the whole post for the sake of space).  Paul was careful to say that neither is the man without the woman and the woman without the man, and that women are co-heirs of salvation, and that in Christ there is neither male nor female......so it's not a matter of women being of lesser value in God's eyes (which is the attitude that came about due to the fall, as well as religiosity under the Law.)  Head-covering should not be thought of in a manner as a humiliation for the woman but as protection........it is a sign to the angels that she is protected under the authority of her head.  In the bible a wife is thought of as being covered by her husband's garment...it's a beautiful analogy, and that is what wearing power on her head signifies as well.  She is under protection because she is valued, not because she isn't.  As Christ loves the church and values her, and the church hides herself in Him.  :)

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The local church, whether at Corinth, Colossae, Cleveland, or Cologne, is only part of the larger church (1:2d–f). This church is the church universal in its breadth. It is rooted in eternity and spread out through all time and space (1:2d). Most of its members are already in heaven. This larger church is the subject of his epistle to the Ephesians. Paul keeps it in mind, here, even though he is writing to a local church. For while he specifically addresses the church at Corinth, his letter is also for “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” This letter, then, is as much for us, who dwell in lands of which Paul never dreamed and at a time as far from his age as was that of Abraham, as it was for those dear Christians in nearby Corinth in 1 Cor. A.D. 55.

 

Phillips, J. (2009). Exploring 1 Corinthians: An Expository Commentary (1 Co 1:1–9). Kregel Publications; WORDsearch Corp.

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