Prophecy of Jesus’ Return

[iamlamad]

On 12/19/2019 at 3:33 PM, Megan McVay said:

Beginning of the Tribulation; also referred to as the start of Daniel’s 70th week: September 30, 2014 (Tuesday). 630 days or 3.5 years later is the midpoint (mid-week point and rise of the Antichrist) of the 70 weeks and falls on Easter Sunday simultaneously April Fool’s Day: April 1, 2018. 630 days later lies on September 30, 2021 (Tuesday)- Jesus’ return. This completes the 7 years. Then begins the 30 days, ending on October 30, 2021 (Thursday)- Battle of Armageddon. After 45 more days, the 1,335 days is reached on December 14, 2021 (Tuesday)- start of Millenium.  

I see so many problems here. First off, the rapture comes before the 70th week, and the church is still here, so it is simply impossible that the 70th week started in our past.  Next, the 6th seal must come before the 70th week - including a worldwide earthquake. Sorry, that has not happened yet either. It will happen right after the rapture.

[charlesj]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have to say this for the sake of the readers, I believe Jesus is coming again second time FOR His saints (the event we call the rapture) and then again 7 years later WITH His saints as shown in Rev. 19. In other words, in my opinion, your post is myth.  Notice, it is only my opinion. 

WHY do I believe these things? It's pretty simple: I cannot find in history where any of the vials were poured out, or any of the trumpets sounded. neither can I find where the 6th seal has taken place. I trust God's ability to forecast the future so explicitly that it cannot be missed - just as He did with many of the prophecies concerning Jesus' first coming. 

Hello iamlamad:

When man/woman obeys the gospel they "are born again."  No longer are we "in the world" to hear "trumpets, sun (no shining), moon (turning dark), stars (falling)... you WILL NOT SEE OR HEAR THESE.  These are Hebrew way(s) of writing and the Hebrew (Jew) knows when they see in Matthew 24 (and other places in the bible) of the sun, moon and stars falling they are being told that the Jewish nation will fall and be destroyed.  We with our "western minds" miss these things.  When you read in the bible "coming in clouds" what do you  think?  This is Hebrew judgement language.  If you look in Matthew 24:30 you will see Jesus "...coming in clouds."  The Hebrew reader will not have any problem with this language, he/she would know that Jesus is coming in judgement."  

I have studied this for over 49 years.  Write me and we can discuss it. cjemeyson@satx.rr.com.  I am charles

May the Lord bless you as you study His Word and serve Him,

Charles

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, charlesj said:

Hello iamlamad:

When man/woman obeys the gospel they "are born again."  No longer are we "in the world" to hear "trumpets, sun (no shining), moon (turning dark), stars (falling)... you WILL NOT SEE OR HEAR THESE.  These are Hebrew way(s) of writing and the Hebrew (Jew) knows when they see in Matthew 24 (and other places in the bible) of the sun, moon and stars falling they are being told that the Jewish nation will fall and be destroyed.  We with our "western minds" miss these things.  When you read in the bible "coming in clouds" what do you  think?  This is Hebrew judgement language.  If you look in Matthew 24:30 you will see Jesus "...coming in clouds."  The Hebrew reader will not have any problem with this language, he/she would know that Jesus is coming in judgement."  

I have studied this for over 49 years.  Write me and we can discuss it. cjemeyson@satx.rr.com.  I am charles

May the Lord bless you as you study His Word and serve Him,

Charles

When man/woman obeys the gospel they "are born again."   Truth. Good job!

No longer are we "in the world" to hear "trumpets, sun (no shining), moon (turning dark), stars (falling)... you WILL NOT SEE OR HEAR THESE.   Imagination! 

What you are missing: The "born again" experience is in the realm of the SPIRIT. Yet, we live in a physical world having a physical body. Therefore OF COURSE we can see the sun and moon, and hear trumpets.  God has always been extremely explicit in prophecy so that no one would miss them. For examples, the Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver and then those 30 pieces of silver would be used to by a potters field; none of His bones would be broken; He would be found in a manger; He would be born in Bethlehem, etc. God's end time prophecies will be just as easy to see when they happen. How is anyone going to miss a worldwide earthquake? Everyone in the world will know when the 6th seal is opened.

Allow me to assist you in your studies: read and head: "If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense "  Author unknown.

When it says Jesus will come with the clouds, that is exactly what it means. He will be surrounded by a cloud of glory, but will step out of that cloud. Remember the verse that He will return exactly as He left. He was seen going up UNTIL the cloud caused Him to disappear from their sight. Here the plain sense of Him coming with the clouds makes GOOD SENSE. Why then try to make it something else?

Did you not understand that the sun appearing black as sack cloth and the moon appearing blood red are SIGNS? If no one could see them they would be worthless as signs. Anyway, how in the world would anyone know the sun was red in color UNLESS they saw it?  I think you will find that Revelation was written in Greek. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by iamlamad

[charlesj]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

When man/woman obeys the gospel they "are born again."   Truth. Good job!

No longer are we "in the world" to hear "trumpets, sun (no shining), moon (turning dark), stars (falling)... you WILL NOT SEE OR HEAR THESE.   Imagination! 

What you are missing: The "born again" experience is in the realm of the SPIRIT. Yet, we live in a physical world having a physical body. Therefore OF COURSE we can see the sun and moon, and hear trumpets.  God has always been extremely explicit in prophecy so that no one would miss them. For examples, the Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver and then those 30 pieces of silver would be used to by a potters field; none of His bones would be broken; He would be found in a manger; He would be born in Bethlehem, etc. God's end time prophecies will be just as easy to see when they happen. How is anyone going to miss a worldwide earthquake? Everyone in the world will know when the 6th seal is opened.

Allow me to assist you in your studies: read and head: "If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense "  Author unknown.

When it says Jesus will come with the clouds, that is exactly what it means. He will be surrounded by a cloud of glory, but will step out of that cloud. Remember the verse that He will return exactly as He left. He was seen going up UNTIL the cloud caused Him to disappear from their sight. Here the plain sense of Him coming with the clouds makes GOOD SENSE. Why then try to make it something else?

Did you not understand that the sun appearing black as sack cloth and the moon appearing blood red are SIGNS? If no one could see them they would be worthless as signs. Anyway, how in the world would anyone know the sun was red in color UNLESS they saw it?  I think you will find that Revelation was written in Greek. 

Hello iamlamad:

We first see evidence of the definition of the sun, moon and stars in Genesis 37 where we run across Joseph.  At this time, Joseph is a young man and is having dreams etc.  He dreams a dream and tells it to his father:

 Genesis 37:9-10

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?  

Notice: Joseph dreams that the SUN, MOON AND STARS will bow down to him.  (We with our “western minds” don’t see this and think God is speaking of the “elements of heaven” literally.  We with our western mind “miss the message.” 

    -his father (Gen 38: 9, a Hebrew) immediately knows what these elements represent and rebukes Joseph.

   -the sun, moon and stars represented the household of Jacob.

   -the sun represented Jacob the father, the moon his mother and the stars represented his brothers. 

Later, this prophecy was fulfilled when Joseph was in Egypt and in a high government position and his family did bow to him.

The sun represented the head of the house, a leader of the house. The moon and stars was his mother and brothers.

 

Isaiah 13:10

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.  

The Lord is speaking here in Isa 13:10 of the destruction of Babylon.  He used an army (clouds) to do His will.

 

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

 

Here again, In Isaiah 19:1ff the Lord is speaking of “riding a swift cloud” to destroy Egypt.  An army fulfilled this.   The point is, that the Lord, in prophetic speech, speaks of “coming in the clouds, or riding a swift cloud” when really He is speaking of using a nations army to destroy another nation.  In Isaiah, it is evident that the prophet is talking about the conquest of Egypt by an army that is doing the will of God.

Matthew 24:29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

          Here, in Matthew you see a reference to the fall of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D.  The sun, moon and stars are made up of the Sanhedrin, that is, the high priests, scribes (some Pharisees) and elders.  These made up the ruler ship of Israel at this time.

 It has been referred to as the “last days, the last hour” in the New Testament and happened in 70 A.D. when Titus, the Roman general, came and destroyed the temple and Jerusalem.

 

This was fulfilled when the Lord “came on clouds” (Roman army) and destroyed the temple and city.  Messiah told them when they see (Matt 24:15) the abomination of desolation (destruction) spoken of by the prophet Daniel then know the time is near.  The synoptic parallel to Matt 24:15 is Luke 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

So, Jesus told them when you see the Roman army (Gentile army, an abomination) surrounding Jerusalem, then you will know the desolation (destruction) is near

 

Matthew 26:64

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.         

In Matthew 26 Christ promised the high priest, Caiaphas, that he would see him coming on the clouds.  (Christ has many “comings” in the N.T. and doesn’t mean a coming to earth like a “literal coming.” In the Greek it is Christ's “Parousia” …. His presence.) 

He saw this in the fulfillment of the Roman army, doing the will of God, through Titus in 70 A.D.  “Coming in clouds, sun, moon and stars all are “judgement language” for the Hebrews.  (We miss this with our western minds)

Like in Noah’s time, a new age was started.  Jesus brought in a new age (New Relationship) in which those that have been “born from above” (born again) have been added to the bride of Christ, the Assembly (The church, Acts 2:47).  Their names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and they enter into that great city as described by the Hebrew writer:  (This great city is all those righteous in Heaven from Adam to today’s time and growing daily.   

Hebrews 12:22-23   ²² But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,  ²³ To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

This city (Universal Church in heaven) is made up of all the righteous from the time of Adam until the present time – and is growing daily.  PRAISE HIS NAME!! (When one is “born again” they are added to the universal church in heaven.  After being born again, they later “join” a church here on earth.)

Acts 2:20

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:  

These statements means “the end of the world” to a premillennialist, but this is not what the bible is teaching.  It is not the end of time (world), but the time of the end of the age. (Old Covenant age, THE JEWISH rule).

Mountains = Kingdoms 

Jeremiah 51:24-26   ²⁴ And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith Jehovah.  ²⁵ Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith Jehovah, which destroyest all the earth; and I will stretch out my hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.  And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith Jehovah.

 

Here in Jeremiah 51 the defeat and destruction of Babylon is pictured by making a destroying mountain (apparently a volcano) into a “burnt-out” mountain.  The term “MOUNTAIN” is used over and over again to stand for a kingdom, as for example, in Amos 4:1 and Isaiah 2:2. 

 WINDS:

The “winds” are often used to indicate the “activity of God.” 

The Greek or Hebrew word could have been translated “wind or spirit.” 

“Wind” is constantly associated with God and the activity of God. 

For example look at John 3:7,8 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.  The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Sometimes the “winds” are used as actions by God against people:

"When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you. But the wind will carry all of them up, And a breath will take them away. But he who takes refuge in Me shall inherit the land, And shall possess My holy mountain."  -Isaiah57:13.

 

“Like an east wind I will scatter them Before the enemy; I will show them My back and not My face In the day of their calamity.'" –Jeremiah 18:17 

Or, like where the Hebrew writer quotes Psalm 104:4 in Hebrews 1:7 “And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.”

God rides on the cherubim (Psalm 18:10 & elsewhere) and also walks on the wings of the wind. .

THE POINT HERE IS “WIND” IS CONSTANTLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE ACTIVITY OF GOD. 

 

These “SYMBOLS” are a part of the Bible’s way of teaching. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, charlesj said:

Hello iamlamad:

We first see evidence of the definition of the sun, moon and stars in Genesis 37 where we run across Joseph.  At this time, Joseph is a young man and is having dreams etc.  He dreams a dream and tells it to his father:

 Genesis 37:9-10

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?  

Notice: Joseph dreams that the SUN, MOON AND STARS will bow down to him.  (We with our “western minds” don’t see this and think God is speaking of the “elements of heaven” literally.  We with our western mind “miss the message.” 

    -his father (Gen 38: 9, a Hebrew) immediately knows what these elements represent and rebukes Joseph.

   -the sun, moon and stars represented the household of Jacob.

   -the sun represented Jacob the father, the moon his mother and the stars represented his brothers. 

Later, this prophecy was fulfilled when Joseph was in Egypt and in a high government position and his family did bow to him.

The sun represented the head of the house, a leader of the house. The moon and stars was his mother and brothers.

 

Isaiah 13:10

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.  

The Lord is speaking here in Isa 13:10 of the destruction of Babylon.  He used an army (clouds) to do His will.

 

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

 

Here again, In Isaiah 19:1ff the Lord is speaking of “riding a swift cloud” to destroy Egypt.  An army fulfilled this.   The point is, that the Lord, in prophetic speech, speaks of “coming in the clouds, or riding a swift cloud” when really He is speaking of using a nations army to destroy another nation.  In Isaiah, it is evident that the prophet is talking about the conquest of Egypt by an army that is doing the will of God.

Matthew 24:29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

          Here, in Matthew you see a reference to the fall of the Jewish nation in 70 A.D.  The sun, moon and stars are made up of the Sanhedrin, that is, the high priests, scribes (some Pharisees) and elders.  These made up the ruler ship of Israel at this time.

 It has been referred to as the “last days, the last hour” in the New Testament and happened in 70 A.D. when Titus, the Roman general, came and destroyed the temple and Jerusalem.

 

This was fulfilled when the Lord “came on clouds” (Roman army) and destroyed the temple and city.  Messiah told them when they see (Matt 24:15) the abomination of desolation (destruction) spoken of by the prophet Daniel then know the time is near.  The synoptic parallel to Matt 24:15 is Luke 21:20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

So, Jesus told them when you see the Roman army (Gentile army, an abomination) surrounding Jerusalem, then you will know the desolation (destruction) is near

 

Matthew 26:64

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.         

In Matthew 26 Christ promised the high priest, Caiaphas, that he would see him coming on the clouds.  (Christ has many “comings” in the N.T. and doesn’t mean a coming to earth like a “literal coming.” In the Greek it is Christ's “Parousia” …. His presence.) 

He saw this in the fulfillment of the Roman army, doing the will of God, through Titus in 70 A.D.  “Coming in clouds, sun, moon and stars all are “judgement language” for the Hebrews.  (We miss this with our western minds)

Like in Noah’s time, a new age was started.  Jesus brought in a new age (New Relationship) in which those that have been “born from above” (born again) have been added to the bride of Christ, the Assembly (The church, Acts 2:47).  Their names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and they enter into that great city as described by the Hebrew writer:  (This great city is all those righteous in Heaven from Adam to today’s time and growing daily.   

Hebrews 12:22-23   ²² But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,  ²³ To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

This city (Universal Church in heaven) is made up of all the righteous from the time of Adam until the present time – and is growing daily.  PRAISE HIS NAME!! (When one is “born again” they are added to the universal church in heaven.  After being born again, they later “join” a church here on earth.)

Acts 2:20

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:  

These statements means “the end of the world” to a premillennialist, but this is not what the bible is teaching.  It is not the end of time (world), but the time of the end of the age. (Old Covenant age, THE JEWISH rule).

Mountains = Kingdoms 

Jeremiah 51:24-26   ²⁴ And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith Jehovah.  ²⁵ Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith Jehovah, which destroyest all the earth; and I will stretch out my hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.  And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith Jehovah.

 

Here in Jeremiah 51 the defeat and destruction of Babylon is pictured by making a destroying mountain (apparently a volcano) into a “burnt-out” mountain.  The term “MOUNTAIN” is used over and over again to stand for a kingdom, as for example, in Amos 4:1 and Isaiah 2:2. 

 WINDS:

The “winds” are often used to indicate the “activity of God.” 

The Greek or Hebrew word could have been translated “wind or spirit.” 

“Wind” is constantly associated with God and the activity of God. 

For example look at John 3:7,8 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.  The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Sometimes the “winds” are used as actions by God against people:

"When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you. But the wind will carry all of them up, And a breath will take them away. But he who takes refuge in Me shall inherit the land, And shall possess My holy mountain."  -Isaiah57:13.

 

“Like an east wind I will scatter them Before the enemy; I will show them My back and not My face In the day of their calamity.'" –Jeremiah 18:17 

Or, like where the Hebrew writer quotes Psalm 104:4 in Hebrews 1:7 “And of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His ministers a flame of fire.”

God rides on the cherubim (Psalm 18:10 & elsewhere) and also walks on the wings of the wind. .

THE POINT HERE IS “WIND” IS CONSTANTLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE ACTIVITY OF GOD. 

 

These “SYMBOLS” are a part of the Bible’s way of teaching. 

What if God really did want to use the sun, that big bright ball of light in the sky, for a sign? Your theory would then be false.

Gen. 1:14  Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

Luk 21:25  "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Joel 2:31 ...'The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.'   This will be the SIGN for the coming Day of the Lord. 

This will be the fulfillment of the Joel sign: Revelation 6:12-13 ...'And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.'

The sun and moon will again be used as a sign: for the coming of the Lord as shown in Rev.19:  Mat. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

This is a different sign than for the Day of the Lord. This was prophesied in Joel also:

¹⁵ The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness. ¹⁶ The Lord also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem;

If the Lord plans on the sun and moon for SIGNS, but someone chooses to spiritualize these verses, then the sign becomes meaningless to them. 

Do be careful, for if God meant these for real, visual signs of events to come and you spiritualize them and make them meaningless as signs - you may just miss the point God was making. I might add, much of the church world today sees these scriptures as very literal. 

However, our God is a great God and has an infinity of ways to use words. Here your theory works:

Rev. 12:Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. ² Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

The woman is to be understood as Israel, for the Messiah came from Israel. Mary was from Israel and a descendant of Jacob. Here we can refer back to Joseph's dream and understand the sun, the moon and the 12 stars from Joseph's dream points to Israel. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by iamlamad