The more I read, the more I lose faith.

[Kristin]

Reality is made up of only two sides. Good and evil  

[Follower0fJesus]

23 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

Is that what He did? 

"If it didn't happen, then it's not what it meant". Great argument. This is why people think religious people aren't educated. 

[Follower0fJesus]

15 minutes ago, DustyRoad said:

Not sure why you chose that forum name seeing as how you're not the least bit interested in following Jesus Christ. You've devoted 17 out of 20 posts to naysaying the Son of God. That speaks volumes, wouldn't you say?

I'm here to get answers, and people think that "any answer goes, as long as it doesn't offend me".

The fact I can get 100 different answers for one question, proves something's wrong.

People gave their opinions, I rebutted with proof from the Bible, and rather than giving a response (because they don't have one), they get offended.

It tests your faith, sure. It did mine. Now I'm looking for answers. It speaks that I'm the only one actually trying to figure this out, rather than blindly believe these vague half-thought out answers.

[Coliseum]

4 hours ago, Kristin said:

Reality is made up of only two sides. Good and evil  

Hi Kristin. I am curious about your thoughts that reality is either good or evil.

I might view human beings as having good and evil, but I am not seeing where a star or a map or a road, etc., has either. They are neutral aren't they---not good or evil? Just my thoughts.

[BibleGuy]

On 12/20/2019 at 4:20 PM, Follower0fJesus said:

The verse says, they won't die until they see the Son of Man coming...meaning when he does come, then they will die. 

and you're saying they never die.

Also read the verse before that one. You'll see it explains what it means by his coming. He will come to judge with angels. 

The Greek also means "all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."

and everytime Jesus used the word "generation", he was referring to "all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively."

I encourage you to look up every time generation was spoken of, in context.

No offense but that's a poor explanation.  

If after "comes ____" you can fill in the blank, than you can do that with any verse. And you still didn't prove he did mean the second coming. All you did was prove there's a possibility he was referring to the second coming.

Obviously if he's telling them they won't reach all of the towns of Isreal, it means something will happen that will obstruct that. The only thing that fits is the second coming. You read into it too much.

 

 

"meaning when he does come, then they will die. "

No.  Jesus said they will never die (Jn.11:26).

 

"and you're saying they never die."

JESUS said they will never die (Jn.11:26).

Thus you've failed to account for the theological context of Jesus' words.

 

"Also read the verse before that one.  You'll see it explains what it means by his coming. He will come to judge with angels. "

NOT true of Mt. 10:22.  So you can drop your objection on that one.

NOT true of Mt. 24:33.  So you can drop your objection on that one too.

And, regarding Mt. 16 I ALREADY TOLD YOU (and I'll TELL YOU AGAIN):

Sometimes people have visions....look at John (Rev.1:7).  John had the vision BEFORE it actually happened....after all, it still hasn't happened! Thus, Mt. 16:28 is CONFIRMED.

And again, those in Christ do NOT DIE (Jn.11:26)...so OF COURSE some will not die before they see the Son of Mon coming....because they will NEVER DIE (Jn.11:26).

 

Remember, "Not X until Y" does not necessarily entail "X after Y".

Proof is in Mt. 11:13:  The law and prophets prophesied " ἕως " John, but they also prophesy AFTER John too!

So again, you've simply misunderstood the Greek, and you've presupposed a bogus underlying entailment relation.

 

"and everytime Jesus used the word "generation", he was referring to "all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.""

I already told you that the Greek "γενεά" also means RACE or NATION or TIME.....not always GENERATION.

So again, you've simply got the wrong interpretation.

 

"I encourage you to look up every time generation was spoken of, in context."

I encourage you to look up Mt. 17:17;  Mk.9:19; Lk.9:41;Lk.16:8;Ac.2:40.

It can mean, metaphorically, a RACE of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race.

And besides, Mt. 24 is a prophecy of a distant future event anyway, because it's talking about the generation that sees the fig tree put forth its leaves, obviously referring to some FUTURE time....not referring to the time at which Jesus was speaking those words in Mt. 24.

 

"If after "comes ____" you can fill in the blank, than you can do that with any verse. "

That's right!  NO verse is an island.  We interpret in CONTEXT.

STOP your bogus hermeneutics.

 

"And you still didn't prove he did mean the second coming."

That's the point.  Multiple interpretive options exist.  Thus, the particular interpretation you demand is thus UNJUSTIFIED.

STOP.

 

"Obviously if he's telling them they won't reach all of the towns of Isreal, it means something will happen that will obstruct that. The only thing that fits is the second coming. You read into it too much."

To the contrary, I ALREADY TOLD YOU that there are MANY comings.  Remember?

I'll tell you AGAIN:

Jesus COMES to give His life (Mk.10:45).

Jesus COMES to be betrayed (Mk.14:41).

Jesus COMES with the angels in glory (Lk.9:26).

Jesus COMES to save the lost (Lk.19:10).

Jesus COMES to be glorified (Jn.12:23).

So Mt. 10:23 obviously does NOT refer to Lk.9:26!  It refers to the OTHER comings...

Lk. 9:26 is obviously still FUTURE.

 

Now, let's see if you are willing to learn here.....

 

blessings...

 

[Follower0fJesus]

56 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

No.  Jesus said they will never die (Jn.11:26).

Yes he did. You're taking John 11:26 out of context. 

"Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." Matthew 24:9

Again referencing the original verse, Jesus says they won't die....until....he comes. 

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

NOT true of Mt. 10:22.  So you can drop your objection on that one.

NOT true of Mt. 24:33.  So you can drop your objection on that one too.

And, regarding Mt. 16 I ALREADY TOLD YOU (and I'll TELL YOU AGAIN):

I fail to see your "context" when you stitch verses together from different chapters. I gave you verses in context, and you failed to recognize them.

"For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Sometimes people have visions....look at John (Rev.1:7).  John had the vision BEFORE it actually happened....after all, it still hasn't happened! Thus, Mt. 16:28 is CONFIRMED.

Having a vision is different from it actually happening, and Jesus isn't talking about a vision. Also, "it still hasn't happened" isn't an argument.

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

Remember, "Not X until Y" does not necessarily entail "X after Y".

Greek word for until still means until.

Let's see you squirm around this verse: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

I already told you that the Greek "γενεά" also means RACE or NATION or TIME.....not always GENERATION.

So again, you've simply got the wrong interpretation.

"It also means..."

That's a poor argument. You're assigning meanings when it's convenient. 

"Not always generation"

So every time Jesus said, "generation", he meant the literal meaning. But for this specific verse he meant "race"?...no.

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

That's right!  NO verse is an island.  We interpret in CONTEXT.

 

Thanks for proving my point, that you fill in the blanks with your own definitions, when convenient for your interpretation. 

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

That's the point.  Multiple interpretive options exist.  Thus, the particular interpretation you demand is thus UNJUSTIFIED.

 

Multiple interpretations exist.... and "Thus"...I'm right; you're wrong?

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

To the contrary, I ALREADY TOLD YOU that there are MANY comings.  Remember?

 

Yes I remember it being irrelevant, to which I quoted every verse in context, that referred to "coming". But again you failed to recognize and your only argument is: "coming can mean anything"...meanwhile ignoring the context where it explains what it means.

[George]

6 hours ago, Follower0fJesus said:

Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

When Jesus spoke these words ... was not John standing there.  Did not John see the vision of the Kingdom to come?   Read Revelation ... and you'll see that John had a clear vision of the Kingdom to come ... BEFORE HE DIED.   I realize that you are struggling with this issue @followerofjesus ... but there are certain words in Greek that are translated that could have a different meaning than what is translated.  For example ... 

Mat 24:32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near. 
Mat 24:33  So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors. 
Mat 24:34  Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled. 

The word Generation -- is this in Greek ...

Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Notice the last definition ... is the one we attribute to the meaning GENERATION as in their lifetime.  However, in the CONTEXT of the passage ...  the symbolism of the fig tree (a picture of the Jewish nation) it's obviously speaking of the Jewish nation would not CEASE until all these things be fulfilled.  So we're seeing the RESTORATION of the Jewish people back to their land ... in fulfillment of MANY prophecies in the Bible.

Please feel free to ask questions ... and hopefully you'll get some thoughtful responses to your inquiries.  If not, you can always start a topic in the Discipleship forums to get more of a direct one on one conversation if you are still struggling,

God bless you,

George

[Sister]

On 12/22/2019 at 2:03 AM, Follower0fJesus said:

It seems everyone wants to throw their opinion in, but not actually read what I write.

"Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Matthew 10:23

Jesus is speaking about persecution as they go through the towns of Israel. That whoever survives to the end will be saved. (context)

Then why does Jesus say, "before the Son of Man comes" and what does it mean?

 

FollowerofJesus

Jesus was speaking to his apostles back then, and to us today.  It's a record of what he warned them on what to expect, which will also apply to us living in the end times.

Jesus means that when persecution comes for them, it will come hard and fast, suddenly.  They will die before they reach all the towns of Israel.  In the end times it will be the same.  Persecution will come fast, so will death.  When we are dead, we know nothing.  Time stops.  It will feel like a blink of an eye, and we will see Christ in the resurrection.

When Jesus says, "he who endures to the end shall be saved" - he means he who endures to the end of his life, to whatever time death comes.  Stay strong, keep the faith.  This is for all generations.  Don't give up.  Die in Christ, die in righteousness.  Just a little word of encouragement for all generations to follow by.

Quote

 

Let's look at every time it says "Son of Man comes". 

"When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?” Luke 18:8

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne." Matthew 25:31

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27

"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." Mattew 24:37

Every time it's written: "comes", it's referring to the second coming.

 

Yes, it's the day of the resurrection.

 

Quote

 

This is confirmed by his disciples also believing he would return in their generation.
"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

Read this verse in context, full verse: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." 

He will come with angels to judge. For all the people who say this was the transfiguration. Did he come to judge with angels? No.

 

Those three who saw the transfiguration, got the vision of what Jesus, the Word of God will look like at his coming in his glory.  The glory of him alone, his countenance of brightness, his power.  To know this, you only have to go on to the next chapter, and there's your answer. Those apostles got to see him in that vision before they died.  He kept his promise.  It came soon.   The kingdom is Christ.  The government is upon his shoulders.  One King, one Word, one Law. 

Quote

Did he have his kingdom yet, before the crucifixion? No

It was a vision!

.....and he will come with all his angels, but they saw Christ in his glory - his brightness.

 

Quote

 

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." Matthew 24:34

Again, let's look at every time it's referring to generation.

Matthew 1:1- The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 12:34- O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:39- But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 12:45- Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Matthew 17:17- Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you?

Mark 8:12- And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Is he referring to a future generation like everyone claims? No. Furthermore, he says "this generation" not "that generation".

 

He's talking about this generation mentioned below;

Matthew 24:29   Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

Matthew 24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:32   Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Matthew 24:33   So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Matthew 24:34   Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

After the tribulation of the end times - is the generation he is speaking about.  Keep it in it's context.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Sister

[George]

I went through this thread ... removed any "baiting" into arguments ... removed comments that were "off-topic" ... and let's try to remember that some people are sincerely asking questions ... and MANY people will SEARCH for the answer to this QUESTION ... and when they come across this ... will their question be answered?  This is really the crux of the matter.

If you don't feel that you can answer the question ... simply leave it ... and let others answer in sincerity of love and seeking the truth. 

God bless,

George

[Follower0fJesus]

1 hour ago, George said:

Notice the last definition ... is the one we attribute to the meaning GENERATION as in their lifetime.  However, in the CONTEXT of the passage ...  the symbolism of the fig tree (a picture of the Jewish nation) it's obviously speaking of the Jewish nation would not CEASE until all these things be fulfilled.  So we're seeing the RESTORATION of the Jewish people back to their land ... in fulfillment of MANY prophecies in the Bible.

 

Jesus used the fig tree in a parable the same way he explained, "When evening comes, you say, ‘The weather will be fair, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but not the signs of the times!"

"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near"

The fig tree was a representation of telling of signs. You can't assume every inclusion of the fig tree is referencing the Jewish nation. Otherwise, explain when Jesus killed the fig tree, in order to explain to his disciples they could do miracles greater than that.

Also then, why would Jesus explain signs to a people that wouldn't be alive to experience it? If it were a future event that wouldn't affect that current generation, the information would be recorded in revelation (as it was).

So far of all the vague baseless answers to these verses, the closest I've got to an answer is: since his disciples believed he would return in their time, they probably wrote in a Jesus-return-soon format. After all, there are verses which indicate they didn't understand everything he said.