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The more I read, the more I lose faith.


Follower0fJesus

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On 12/20/2019 at 9:06 PM, Follower0fJesus said:

I invite you to read my previous comment. It seems everyone has a similar answer, which I believe is wrong.

Also I don't like the answers: "it hasn't happened, therefore that's not what it meant". 

You can use the same logic with a false prophet. Ex: "He prophesied the end will be in 100 years. But 1 day is as 1000 years". It's just twisting the meaning to meet your own interpretation. 

Alright....

...let's just say for the sake of argument that the whole Biblical world is wrong and you are the only one in the universe who is right.

There are passages in the Bible that I don't understand.  I've researched commentaries and gotten no satisfaction.  And I've disagreed with them all.

Do you think for one iota of a millisecond that I would let this make me lost my faith?!?

Not for one second.  My human and limited mind is not God's mind.  For me to question ANYTHING in the Bible, come to the conclusion that I just don't get it, something is wrong, and then for me to say - well, God's not real, it's all a big joke, and I have no faith anymore.....

…..well, that would just prove how ignorant I was.

Why are you losing your faith over this?

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6 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Alright....

...let's just say for the sake of argument that the whole Biblical world is wrong and you are the only one in the universe who is right.

There are passages in the Bible that I don't understand.  I've researched commentaries and gotten no satisfaction.  And I've disagreed with them all.

Do you think for one iota of a millisecond that I would let this make me lost my faith?!?

Not for one second.  My human and limited mind is not God's mind.  For me to question ANYTHING in the Bible, come to the conclusion that I just don't get it, something is wrong, and then for me to say - well, God's not real, it's all a big joke, and I have no faith anymore.....

…..well, that would just prove how ignorant I was.

Why are you losing your faith over this?

When the God you trust says something that doesn't happen, why wouldn't you lose your faith. 

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1 hour ago, Follower0fJesus said:

When the God you trust says something that doesn't happen, why wouldn't you lose your faith. 

And there is no consideration on your part that you are wrong and God is right and that you have misconstrued what God has said?

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1 hour ago, Follower0fJesus said:

When the God you trust says something that doesn't happen, why wouldn't you lose your faith. 

because when it has come up with me I have later discovered I really didn't understand what he was saying when I read it.....    Either I was reading it as though he was telling me something instead of the time place and people he was speaking to....    and there are things in the translation from Greek/Hebrew that we simply don't have the English words to always carry the context over with it......           

 

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12 hours ago, Follower0fJesus said:

Yes he did. You're taking John 11:26 out of context. 

"Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." Matthew 24:9

Again referencing the original verse, Jesus says they won't die....until....he comes. 

I fail to see your "context" when you stitch verses together from different chapters. I gave you verses in context, and you failed to recognize them.

"For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28

Having a vision is different from it actually happening, and Jesus isn't talking about a vision. Also, "it still hasn't happened" isn't an argument.

Greek word for until still means until.

Let's see you squirm around this verse: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

"It also means..."

That's a poor argument. You're assigning meanings when it's convenient. 

"Not always generation"

So every time Jesus said, "generation", he meant the literal meaning. But for this specific verse he meant "race"?...no.

Thanks for proving my point, that you fill in the blanks with your own definitions, when convenient for your interpretation. 

Multiple interpretations exist.... and "Thus"...I'm right; you're wrong?

Yes I remember it being irrelevant, to which I quoted every verse in context, that referred to "coming". But again you failed to recognize and your only argument is: "coming can mean anything"...meanwhile ignoring the context where it explains what it means.

"Yes he did. You're taking John 11:26 out of context. "

No.  Jn.11:26 said they will NEVER DIE, obviously proving that there is MORE THAN ONE FORM OF DEATH in Jesus' mind.

Thus YOU have ignored the theological significance and context of Jesus' words and teachings in the Gospels.

 

" Again referencing the original verse, Jesus says they won't die....until....he comes.  "

Wrong. Mt. 24:34 refers to the "generation" that sees the fig tree event....that's a FUTURE event that does NOT need to refer to the people to whom Jesus was speaking in Mt. 24.

That's another reason why you're wrong.

 

""Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." Matthew 24:9"

This only supports my position!  There is MORE THAN ONE FORM OF DEATH in Jesus' mind.

That's another reason your position falls apart.

 

" I fail to see your "context" when you stitch verses together from different chapters. "

That's because YOU have ignored the integrative approach to hermeneutics.

ALL the four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) give us information about Jesus' words and life and theology.

Your choice to isolate verses out of the broader context of the Jesus-Gospel-data is simply bogus hermeneutics.

 

But hey, if you want to use bogus hermeneutics to deceive yourself, go for it!  Beware that you'll pay the price for your dishonesty.....

 

"I gave you verses in context, and you failed to recognize them."

You IGNORED the Gospel-context of Jesus' words and teachings.

That's OUT-OF-CONTEXT, buddy.

I failed to recognize nothing legitimate.

Try again.

 

""For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done. Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28"

I'll tell you FOR THE THIRD TIME, BUDDY!  READY?

Sometimes people have visions....look at John (Rev.1:7).  John had the vision BEFORE Jesus' return in glory....after all, Jesus still hasn't returned in glory! Thus, Mt. 16:28 is CONFIRMED.

And again, those in Christ do NOT DIE (Jn.11:26)...so OF COURSE some will not die before they see the Son of Man coming....because they will NEVER DIE (Jn.11:26).

So, you've simply ignored the facts of visions (as in Rev. 1:7).

And you've ignored that theological significance of Jesus' words (as in Jn.11:26).

 

But hey!  If you must IGNORE TRUTH so as to hold onto your bogus imaginations....then go for it!  But you'll pay the price for your dishonesty....you've been warned.

 

" Having a vision is different from it actually happening, and Jesus isn't talking about a vision. "

Haha!  ANOTHER unjustified assumption, dude!  STOP.

Mt. 16:28 does NOT state that visions will not be one of the means by which Mt. 16:28 will be confirmed.  That's just your bogus unjustified presupposition.  STOP.

And, those in Christ do NOT DIE (Jn.11:26)...so OF COURSE some will not die before they see the Son of Man coming....because they will NEVER DIE (Jn.11:26).

After all, if you NEVER DIE, then it's TRUE that you will not die before you see the Son of Man coming!  Mt. 16:28 CONFIRMED!

 

" Also, "it still hasn't happened" isn't an argument. "

IT STILL HASN'T HAPPENED is a FACT.  This FACT is proof that you can't claim that Mt. 26:18 is disconfirmed.....after all, the only way you could disconfirm it, is if you could prove that when Jesus returns in glory, there will be no people with eternal life who heard Jesus speak the words in Mt. 16:28.  But of course, it's NOT POSSIBLE for you to prove this, because Jesus has not even returned in glory yet.

BOOM!

Face plant.

Try again, buddy.

 

" Greek word for until still means until. "

Of course.  And this fact is CONSISTENT with the observation you failed to understand: "Not X until Y" does not necessarily entail "X after Y".

True in Greek and in English.

I even gave you proof from Mt.11:13....but you ignored that too....

Wow, you sure need to ignore lots of TRUTH to remain in your ignorance, eh?

Ready to repent yet?

 

" "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." "

What's wrong with Mt. 5:18?  It's true!

And NOT everything is accomplished (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8).  So that's why NO TORAH is terminated, even today.

Ready to challenge me on this one buddy?  You WILL GO DOWN IN A MIGHTY SPECTACLE!  Try me!  (or will you ignore this too?)

 

" That's a poor argument. You're assigning meanings when it's convenient.  "

That's GOOD HERMENEUTICS!

Words have MULTIPLE MEANINGS in language....that's just TRUTH.

Ever read a DICTIONARY?  Words often have MULTIPLE possible meanings....

We infer proper interpretation from CONTEXT.....we don't instantly jump to a CONTRADICTORY interpretation, when ALTERNATIVE CONSISTENT interpretations are available.

Now you've betrayed your ignorance of proper philosophy of language.

NOT IMPRESSED, buddy.

Ready to repent?

 

" So every time Jesus said, "generation", he meant the literal meaning. But for this specific verse he meant "race"?...no. "

Haha!  There is MORE than one MEANING for the term.

Same thing, in general, for words in languages.

Please get your head out of the sand.

And you IGNORED the five instances I gave you confirming the RACE interpretation of " γενεά "....but hey, your pattern is to IGNORE INCONVENIENT TRUTHS....not LEARN from them.

So, now I'm not surprised.

Your ignorance is self-imposed.

 

" Multiple interpretations exist.... and "Thus"...I'm right; you're wrong? "

I'm right to say you're WRONG, given the observation of multiple interpretations, where YOU have failed to justify your PARTICULAR interpretation over the legitimate alternatives.

That's sufficient to disprove your position.

Why?

Because you haven't even proven that your interpretation is better than legitimate alternatives!

Ready to repent?

 

" Thanks for proving my point, that you fill in the blanks with your own definitions, when convenient for your interpretation.  "

And what definition did I use wrongly?  (hint: none!)

What did YOU ignore?  (hint:  possible definitions of terms!)

What hermeneutics did I employ?  (hint: justified harmonistic hermeneutics)

What hermeneutics did you employ? (hint: unjustified inconsistent hermeneutics)

 

You INCONVENIENTLY ignore truths which disconfirm your bogus hermeneutics.

Your ignorance is self-imposed.

Bad choice, buddy.

 

" Yes I remember it being irrelevant"

That's your problem!  You IGNORE Biblical data which you don't like, and you pretend it is "irrelevant".

That's NOT what truth-seekers do.

Truth-seekers seek to integrate the Jesus-data into a big picture of what He said and taught and believed and meant....

You don't just take a couple verses out of the broader context of His teachings, and then pretend you've discovered a contradiction!

That's unjustified hermeneutics....

You can't ignore Jesus' teachings about the various "comings" of Christ, whenever it's convenient for your efforts to "discover" a contradiction....

You've simply buried your head in the sand and IGNORED what Jesus taught....

Shame on you.

There are MANY comings of Christ, including:

Jesus COMES to give His life (Mk.10:45).

Jesus COMES to be betrayed (Mk.14:41).

Jesus COMES with the angels in glory (Lk.9:26).

Jesus COMES to save the lost (Lk.19:10).

Jesus COMES to be glorified (Jn.12:23).

So Mt. 10:23 obviously does NOT need to refer to Lk.9:26!  It can refer to the OTHER comings...

 

CONCLUSION:

Your argument from Mt. 10:23 is dead in the water.  There are MANY other "comings" to which it may refer (e.g., Mk.10:45;Mk.14:41;Lk.19:10;etc.)

Your argument from Mt. 24:34 refers to the FUTURE prophecy of people who will see the FIG TREE EVENT (Mt. 24:32)....so Mt. 24:34 OBVIOUSLY need not refer to the same people-group to whom Jesus was speaking Mt. 24.

Your argument from Mt. 16:28 is also dead.  You haven't even shouldered your burden of proof:

  1. Prove that when the Son of Man comes in glory, there will be no people with eternal life who heard Jesus speak the words in Mt. 16.

  2. Prove that John's vision in Rev. 1:7 is a false vision.

  3. Prove that nobody in addition to John has ever seen a vision as in Rev. 1:7.

  4. Prove that Jesus excluded the possibility of visions as a form of fulfilling Mt. 16:28.

  5. Prove that the conception of "kingdom" is not multi-faceted in Jesus' mind (which it is!  Lk.11:20;17:21)

 

Of course, you haven't bothered to do this.

In fact, you didn't even REALIZE you needed to do this....

 

And WHY did you not realize this?

Because you don't even understand proper philosophy of language....or proper hermeneutics.....or meanings of words.....or theological contexts......or good logic.....

 

Regards...

 

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Matthew 24   Just reading through the passage again: 

The disciples asked about the signs of His glorious coming.  Right?  So Jesus gives a great many signs.  Then Jesus says, "Assuredly, I say to you, 'this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled.'" 

OK.  What generation is Jesus speaking of?  The generation of His disciples - their lifetimes.  I didn't get that impression from the passage. 

I got the impression that the generation who see all those signs - will see His glorious "coming".   

That's the generation that would not pass away til all of it is fulfilled.   Jesus was speaking of THE LAST GENERATION - not the one sitting at His feet that day

 

Matthew 16:27 [The context:  Jesus confirms He is the Son of God, talks about His impending death and resurrection] 

"For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." 28 I tell you the truth, there are some standing here who will not experience death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27)

Does "coming in his kingdom" refer only and exclusively his Glorious Return for judgment?  OR  Could "His coming" include the whole "coming" process from start to glorious conclusion?  

His "kingdom" began with the outpouring of His Spirit at Pentecost.  Resurrected saints even appeared in Jerusalem to witness of His resurrection (Mat 27:52-53).  Jesus told His disciples that He would be with them and "in" them.  ICor 15:45 says "the Last Adam was made a life-giving spirit".   Galatians 4:6 says "God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son."   THAT "coming" is what those disciples (sans Judas) would "see".   They would see and experience Pentecost.  That WAS His glorious coming.  Right?  Fewer people were aware of it, than will be at the end,  when He "comes" to gather His elect.  But it WAS a "coming", and it was "glorious". 

Because there is a glorious conclusion, doesn't mean there wasn't a glorious beginning. 

When John the Baptist and then Jesus preached, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand",  were they wrong? (Mat 3:2, Mat 4:17)  I don't think so. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, DustyRoad said:

A lengthy rebuttal (that's why I'm quoting a small portion) but something I agree with in spirit. I pray that you consider BibleGuy's contribution along with others, @Follower0fJesus. I definitely don't want to see you become irrevocably lost. Would it help to learn that some of us were atheists before the Lord saved us? I became utterly convinced not only of Christ's veracity --- there's no lie or deceit in him at all --- but was also the subject of his mercy... his love... and his power that day when he spared me from death. I was sick and dying... so perhaps now you might appreciate why some of us react so strongly when others accuse the Son of God of terrible things. 

Is that your intent? Not for me to proclaim... but I pray that you're sincere. Otherwise, what you're doing here is a very grave thing indeed.

Your self righteous peace making isn't accepted by me, when you were the one contributing to insults and name calling, which you still continue to do in disguised complacency and supporting others who are as well.

The same who complain this thread is too long, are the same making it longer. Your answers didn't convince me, so move on and make room for other answers.

 

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9 hours ago, Follower0fJesus said:

Jesus used the fig tree in a parable the same way he explained, "When evening comes, you say, ‘The weather will be fair, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but not the signs of the times!"

"From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near"

The fig tree was a representation of telling of signs. You can't assume every inclusion of the fig tree is referencing the Jewish nation. Otherwise, explain when Jesus killed the fig tree, in order to explain to his disciples they could do miracles greater than that.

Also then, why would Jesus explain signs to a people that wouldn't be alive to experience it? If it were a future event that wouldn't affect that current generation, the information would be recorded in revelation (as it was).

So far of all the vague baseless answers to these verses, the closest I've got to an answer is: since his disciples believed he would return in their time, they probably wrote in a Jesus-return-soon format. After all, there are verses which indicate they didn't understand everything he said.

"If it were a future event that wouldn't affect that current generation, the information would be recorded in revelation (as it was)"

Again wrong....you have no justification for the claim that you are wise enough to inform us of the detailed manner in which God would inspire the Scriptures.

Thus, you simply DO NOT KNOW that "If it were a future event that wouldn't affect that current generation, the information would be recorded in revelation".

That's just another unjustified assumption.

 

"Also then, why would Jesus explain signs to a people that wouldn't be alive to experience it?"

First, it's not your job to understand WHY Jesus does everything that He does!

After all, His ways are ABOVE your ways (Is.55:9;Rom.11:33).

And, obviously, a plausible reason is because Jesus knew that many future centuries of Christians would be learning from those words He was speaking!

After all, speech is not always directed to INDIVIDUALS....it can also be directed to BODIES or GROUPS of peoples.

 

"So far of all the vague baseless answers to these verses"

You've not proven my answer was vague and baseless.

SET FORTH your justification for your claim that my answer was vague and baseless, or RETRACT your baseless claim that my response was vague and baseless.

Until then, you are not showing signs of being genuine.

Rather, you dismiss good answers, and you call them "vague and baseless", and you don't even prove that they are vague and baseless.

 

Try again.

This time, PROVE your claims....with EVIDENCE.

Otherwise, you are just typing unsupported opinions on a keyboard.....

 

Regards....

 

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4 minutes ago, Margo1945 said:

you don't seem to want to accept what anyone tries to tell you and the more you argue against truth

Interesting you chose the word "truth", yet almost every answer here was different. 

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2 minutes ago, Margo1945 said:

okay, I shall clarify better .. some of the answers you were given may not be as accurate as they should be but some answers would have been "truth" and no matter the answers you were given, you argued against them .. since no one here seems to be able to help you, why don't you do what George suggested and get more personal help ..  my concern is that you will end up throwing up your arms and giving up .. don't risk your faith with all this going around in circles in which no matter what you are told, you "seem" to reject 

I've been studying these verses for years, and all these answers I've heard of countless times, and none of them work. The "answers" are either a play on words/meanings or out of context references to events. 

Those 3 verses cross reference each other, and giving an answer to one by changing the meaning of words, doesn't answer any questions. 

Maybe those answers satisfy others, but not me. I've tried applying similar meanings, but the more I read, the more I realize they don't work. The more it seems Jesus really was preparing for a return within his generation.

Also not sure what you mean by "personal help", and how that will answer any questions. Other than talking to someone who will lullaby you back into faith with sugar coated words.

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