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Are the 10 Commandments called "the moral law"?


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26 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

My understanding that obeying the Sabbath is unneeded is based on each and all of every book of the New Testament, they all (all 27) explain how salvation comes through trusting Jesus Christ's atoning death and resurrection salvation, not law-keeping

No, it's not for salvation's sake.  In keeping the Sabbath, no man will be saved or can be saved.  Salvation is a gift from the Father through the atoning death and resurrection of His Son. 

Again, Sabbath keeping is not for the purposes of salvation or adding/completing your salvation.  Neither is any Torah observance. But it's about behaviour and obedience thereafter.  

Consider what the Messiah said in Matthew 5.  Those who observe and teach the Torah, will be called greatest in the Kingdom and those who don't will be called least.  Now, there we have two groups described but BOTH are in the Kingdom of God (that is, saved).  But why strive to be the least in the Kingdom?

I'm not telling you to keep Sabbath.  I'm not telling you that you need to in order to be saved.  I'm just saying that's it's a risking thing to say "breaking the Sabbath is lawful" when you don't need to.  Each of our words need to be accounted for and simply saying "I think that breaking the Sabbath is lawful" is much better.  Because what IF you are wrong?  You might not be.  But what IF you are?  These are heavy words to account for, no?

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20 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Exactly my point.  Paul himself isn't to be contested at all.  However, his letters can be hard to understand.  I have seen many debates over the letters of Paul and it ends up going round and round and ending up in difference of opinion.  

Now, neither side will admit (or see) that they are misinterpreting Paul - so what can be done?  Therefore, for the sake of argument, I asked for an argument from the remaining 52 books of the Bible, and in the words of Yahweh and the Messiah Himself.  

If a certain theology springing from Paul's letters cannot be backed up in the rest of 52 books and in the words of the Father or the Son, then perhaps that is the party that have misunderstood Paul.  It's a simple as that.  Therefore, perhaps the theology of "breaking the Sabbath is lawful" is incorrect, unless it can be witnessed in the remaining 52 books and, again, in the words of the Father and Son.

I'm happy to consider the opposition's argument and change my thinking on the matter.  But if the opposition can only rely on Paul and have to rely on Paul ONLY, then perhaps they are of the party that have misunderstood his letters.

As for me, with or without Paul's letters, my theology stays they same as I see one single unified message in the whole Bible which , I see, Paul establish and reaffirm.

You used the word 'contest'.

Many things--indeed all things are debated and will continue to be debated. That fact doesn't validate or invalidate a thing.

Everything that Paul taught can be rendered down to principles and validated throughout scripture as a whole. Once the basic principles are understood the picture becomes clear as a bell and easily explained. This doesn't mean that all ears will hear. That is as inevitable as the Truth itself.

Regarding the Sabbath? I suggest that each is free by the constraints of conscience to keep or not keep. Let him be fully convinced.

I also suggest that you place too much weight on the Sabbath toward born again believers...it isn't necessary and causes strife for no good reason.

Paul was clear here and in other places. The principle is embedded in the instructions.

Col. 2:16   Therefore no one is to 1aact as your judge in regard to bfood or bdrink or in respect to a cfestival or a dnew moon or a eSabbath 2day — 17 things which are aa mere shadow of what is to come; but the 1substance 2belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep 1adefrauding you of your prize by bdelighting in 2self-abasement and the worship of the angels, 3taking his stand on visions he has seen, 4cinflated without cause by his dfleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to athe head, from whom bthe entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and 1ligaments, grows with a growth 2which is from God.

 

Col. 2:20   aIf you have died with Christ 1to the belementary principles of the world, cwhy, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to ddecrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer ato things destined to perish 1with use) — in accordance with the bcommandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the 1appearance of wisdom in 2aself-made religion and self-abasement and bsevere treatment of the body, but are of no value against cfleshly indulgence.

 

Col. 3:1   Therefore if you have been araised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, bseated at the right hand of God. 2 1aSet your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.

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2 minutes ago, Alive said:

Paul was clear here and in other places.

Yeah, like I've said, I'm quite aware of the arguments some pose from Paul.

But what other books can you quote on the matter?  You have plenty to choose from and there should be many witnesses throughout Scripture.  I'd be more than willing to consider them.

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1 minute ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Yeah, like I've said, I'm quite aware of the arguments some pose from Paul.

But what other books can you quote on the matter?  You have plenty to choose from and there should be many witnesses throughout Scripture.  I'd be more than willing to consider them.

I am sorry, but I won't satisfy you any further. The entire OT and history of the Jews and the reasons for Christ's Cross are the witnesses.

You are 'free' to keep the Sabbath, if you actually do so. I would bet a buck that you 'keep' it in a manner that fits you, which in itself is a contradiction.

If you bind yourself to it, then you are 'bound' to it.

Deut. 5:12   ‘aObserve the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 ‘Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but athe seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who 1stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15aYou shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

Then of course there is the Sabbath Journey which know one is sure of...

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Here' what amazes me, God the Holy Spirit Himself says:

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.  Heb 10:1

A shadow is absence of light, ...a shadow actually draws attention away from the object it is represents.

As I have stated previously, the Law was given by God to show us His "standard" of Judgment for people. If the Law is just a shadow, then what is the "object" creating the shadow, ...does not the Word tell us the "object" is the God-Man Jesus Christ?

Did not the Holy Spirit speaking through David warn us?

"Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” Heb 4:7b

Who's voice are we told to listen to?

Since then we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.  Heb 4:14

To have a "confession" we first have to "hear" it, ...the Holy Spirit is telling us in Hebrews 4 that Jesus is the "object" that is casting the Shadow, ...Jesus "is" our "Sabbath" rest, ...our confession is to say the same thing God says...

Don't want to believe it, ...they you have to "argue" with GOD, ...look what the Holy Spirit tells us:

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.  Heb 4;8

Wait a minute, didn't Moses give them the Ten Commandments, ...didn't the people faithfully "keep" the Sabbath during all of those years of desert wandering, ...the answer is, "YES!" So then, when Joshua led the people into the Promised Land, ...did they "keep" the Sabbath, evidently so, ...so then, ...what is the "Rest" God is speaking about?

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, Heb 4:9

Really, ...after the generation before them that died in the desert, "keeping" the Sabbath and this new generation "keeping" the Sabbath, ...God says there still remains a "Sabbath" rest for the people?

...for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from His.  Heb 4:10

Doesn't that means the "logical" deduction is, ...God is telling us, ...there is a "rest" that is different from "keeping" the Sabbath, ...that has been the "tradition"  of the Jewish people up to and including today, ...that the "object" of the shadow of the Sabbath rest is Jesus?

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.  Heb 4:11

What is the "disobedience" still being practiced today, ...worshiping the shadow rather than the object!

And in so doing, ...like I stated before, they are breaking the first commandment, ...making "themselves" gods:

 “You shall have no other gods before me."  Exo 20:3

I find it very interest all of the debate about "who" wrote Hebrews, ...most have their opinion, ...that way they can fall back on the excuse, "Hebrews was written by," and they say some man's name, ...but Hebrews is the "only" book in the New Testament that does NOT tells us who the Holy Spirit was speaking through, ...that means there is no doubt to the author, ...the subject of the Book is so important, ...and that subject is Jesus, ...that God wanted us to:

“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him. Matt 17:5

Is that not the way He began the Book:

 ...has in these last days spoken to us by Son, Heb 1:2

Incidentally, for those that have never been taught or heard this, ..."Son" is a reference to a "spoken" language, like English, Spanish, French, German.

The difference between the "Son" language and all of the other languages spoken on this planet is, ...ALL of the "other" languages we hear with our ears and understand in our minds, ...the Language of "Son" we "hear" with our ears, ...but can only be "understood" in our hearts...

"listen to Him!"

I have, ...am resting in the Sabbath rest of Jesus Christ my Lord, ...not just one day a week, but every day of the week, 24/7, ...365 days a year, ...not just 52 days a year...  

Lord bless

 

 

 

The argument is "God rested on the Sabbath," ...yes He did, ...from creating, ...did He rest from keeping "order" in the Universe, ...did He "rest" from keeping the atoms from flying apart in one gigantic thermonuclear explosion, did He "rest" from controlling Adam's breathing and his heart beating?...and what Did He "do," ...He had "fellowship" with Adam  

 

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2 minutes ago, Alive said:

I am sorry, but I won't satisfy you any further.

Right, so you can't then - and that's my point.

3 minutes ago, Alive said:

If you bind yourself to it, then you are 'bound' to it.

This sounds like a legalist talking.

4 minutes ago, Alive said:

Then of course there is the Sabbath Journey which know one is sure of...

And where is this mentioned in Scripture?  Or are you pulling stuff from the Oral Law?  

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3 minutes ago, JustPassingThru said:

Here' what amazes me, God the Holy Spirit Himself says:

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.  Heb 10:1

A shadow is absence of light, ...a shadow actually draws attention away from the object it is represents.

As I have stated previously, the Law was given by God to show us His "standard" of Judgment for people. If the Law is just a shadow, then what is the "object" creating the shadow, ...does not the Word tell us the "object" is the God-Man Jesus Christ?

Did not the Holy Spirit speaking through David warn us?

"Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.” Heb 4:7b

Who's voice are we told to listen to?

Since then we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.  Heb 4:14

To have a "confession" we first have to "hear" it, ...the Holy Spirit is telling us in Hebrews 4 that Jesus is the "object" that is casting the Shadow, ...Jesus "is" our "Sabbath" rest, ...our confession is to say the same thing God says...

Don't want to believe it, ...they you have to "argue" with GOD, ...look what the Holy Spirit tells us:

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.  Heb 4;8

Wait a minute, didn't Moses give them the Ten Commandments, ...didn't the people faithfully "keep" the Sabbath during all of those years of desert wandering, ...the answer is, "YES!" So then, when Joshua led the people into the Promised Land, ...did they "keep" the Sabbath, evidently so, ...so then, ...what is the "Rest" God is speaking about?

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, Heb 4:9

Really, ...after the generation before them that died in the desert, "keeping" the Sabbath and this new generation "keeping" the Sabbath, ...God says there still remains a "Sabbath" rest for the people?

...for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from His.  Heb 4:10

Doesn't that means the "logical" deduction is, ...God is telling us, ...there is a "rest" that is different from "keeping" the Sabbath, ...that has been the "tradition"  of the Jewish people up to and including today, ...that the "object" of the shadow of the Sabbath rest is Jesus?

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.  Heb 4:11

What is the "disobedience" still being practiced today, ...worshiping the shadow rather than the object!

And in so doing, ...like I stated before, they are breaking the first commandment, ...making "themselves" gods:

 “You shall have no other gods before me."  Exo 20:3

I find it very interest all of the debate about "who" wrote Hebrews, ...most have their opinion, ...that way they can fall back on the excuse, "Hebrews was written by," and they say some man's name, ...but Hebrews is the "only" book in the New Testament that does NOT tells us who the Holy Spirit was speaking through, ...that means there is no doubt to the author, ...the subject of the Book is so important, ...and that subject is Jesus, ...that God wanted us to:

“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to Him. Matt 17:5

Is that not the way He began the Book:

 ...has in these last days spoken to us by Son, Heb 1:2

Incidentally, for those that have never been taught or heard this, ..."Son" is a reference to a "spoken" language, like English, Spanish, French, German.

The difference between the "Son" language and all of the other languages spoken on this planet is, ...ALL of the "other" languages we hear with our ears and understand in our minds, ...the Language of "Son" we "hear" with our ears, ...but can only be "understood" in our hearts...

"listen to Him!"

I have, ...am resting in the Sabbath rest of Jesus Christ my Lord, ...not just one day a week, but every day of the week, 24/7, ...365 days a year, ...not just 52 days a year...  

Lord bless

 

 

 

The argument is "God rested on the Sabbath," ...yes He did, ...from creating, ...did He rest from keeping "order" in the Universe, ...did He "rest" from keeping the atoms from flying apart in one gigantic thermonuclear explosion, did He "rest" from controlling Adam's breathing and his heart beating?...and what Did He "do," ...He had "fellowship" with Adam  

 

Exactly---someone recently mentioned that the Sabbath was instituted before the Law back in Genesis 1.

And yes it was--and you pointed out the 'highest' understanding of the type of that 'Rest'. Even then, God was pointing us to Christ. His Plan and His solution.

Our friend on this thread is making an argument for legalism while denying that he is doing so. And while at the same time saying that other ones don't need to--implying that they do need to. Its a fallacious argument that falls under its own weight and the clear scriptures.

This is what we call a pet doctrine. A high tower. That people erect to make them special and apart. We have seen and recognize these things.

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It's in the book, my friend and of course Jewish tradition.

Many think it's based on Joshua.

Josh. 3:4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure. Do not come near it, that you may know the way by which you must go, for you have not passed this way before.”

Others think it relates to going out for manna.

Ex. 16:27   Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Then there is this.

Acts 1:12   Then they areturned to Jerusalem from the 1bmount called 2Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a 3Sabbath day’s journey away.

Just how do you 'keep' the Sabbath? No work, for you, your house and anyone you have authority over?

Holy---separated out entirely for the Lord and His purpose. How do you measure the day?

How do you yourself 'keep' it?

It seems that the apostles that walked with Jesus were aware of a Sabbath journey. Do you discount this and interpret it to fit your own adherence?

By what authority do you determine these things?

How do you know just what is the 'right' way to observe the Sabbath.

These things are just a taste of the difficulty of a principle of 'law'. Jesus was clear when He himself raised the bar when talking about murder and adultery in the heart.

He paid the price to free us from these chains.

 

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If you're unable to follow the Sabbath as led by the Spirit, that's your problem my friend, not mine. You could pray to the Most High to guide you. 

But I don't think you should do the Sabbath. You don't have the heart for it and it obviously is a big deal for you. It would probably only detract from your relationship with Him rather than add to it, judging by how you see it in your thread. Best leave it and carry on as you are. 

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Brilliant!!!

See, for that the LORD hath given you the Sabbath, therefore He giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Exo 16:29

Okay all you "Sabbath" keepers, ...do you "obey" the command to stay in your houses, ...or do you leave and "assemble" in a building somewhere???

Please answer us, ...you teach us to "obey" the Law, ...do you?

Can anyone else see this?

"abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of His place on the seventh day." 

My "place" and every born again child of God, is "in" Christ, ..."in Christ" is mentioned 78 times in the New Testament, it's our "position," where we are spiritually, ...it's a Biblical FACT!

Now please, consider this,  "with God a day is like a 1,000 years and 1,000 years is like a day," with God, ...not man, ...for man a day is 24 hours, ...we are in the seventh Millennium since creation, ...we are "in" the Seventh Day in God's way of looking at time.

So:

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear His voice, Heb 3:7

The Holy Spirit used the word "today" in the Book of Hebrews 8 times;

1. We are living in the "seventh" day as God considers time.

2. The Holy Spirit used the word "today" eight times in His Book, ...He use the number 8 to signify "new" beginnings.

3. The Church began during the seventh day.

4. The Holy Spirit tells us in Hebrews the spiritual meaning of His Sabbath.

5. Jesus came and took on the "form of a man during the seventh day and became our "Sabbath" rest.

I have nothing against "Sabbath" keepers, if that's your thing then do it, ...just please respect the Word of God and don't judge Col 2:16 us who don't and have found our rest in Jesus, ..and please don't try and make proselytes to your way of believing when the Bible tells us not to, ...please let everyone allow the Holy Spirit to teach them the Truth. 1 John 2:27

Lord bless

 

 

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