Mike Mclees Posted January 6, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 1,915 Content Per Day: 0.81 Reputation: 910 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) On 1/4/2020 at 4:57 PM, Mike Mclees said: If it be as you say then I apologize and truly done in humility and spreading the Gospel then God bless you. On 1/4/2020 at 4:57 PM, Mike Mclees said: If it be as you say then I apologize and truly done in humility and spreading the Gospel then God bless you. I said if it is true as you say. This not mean that I am in any way in agreement with posterity preaching. Some thing nags at me that this preaching is not of God and is a distortion of Gods word. It says that God is obligated to make us rich. I call this blasphemy and self seeking. It is not built on humility but a self centered lust for personal wealth. This is not true Gospel but all about self. Edited January 6, 2020 by Mike Mclees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted January 6, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 6, 2020 On 1/5/2020 at 4:15 AM, LonerAndy said: the church lacks credibility with the pagans Hi, While you personally may have an issue of credibility, churches don't. Might consider not calling people pagans as a beginning. Just a thought to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted January 6, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Neighbor said: Hi, While you personally may have an issue of credibility, churches don't. Might consider not calling people pagans as a beginning. Just a thought to consider. Pagan isn't an insult. It just means non-Christian. And obviously I don't call people I meet directly, pagans. You should be polite at all times. If you say the Church doesn't have credibility with the pagans, why do I meet pagans all the time that claim the church is full of hypocrites? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 7, 2020 3 hours ago, LonerAndy said: why do I meet pagans all the time that claim the church is full of hypocrites? Of course churches are full of hypocrites. Christians will tell you that. No one claims the perfect are gathered to worship God. My Lord came not for the righteous, but for sinners. Many mask wearers, weary and wanting to drop their facade gather at the local bodies of Christ Jesus to worship in awe and fear of God praising Him wondrous mercy and grace, not to tout one's own merit. For there is none to tout.. 'Hypocrite' comes from the Greek word 'hypokrites', which means "an actor." The custom of an actor was to wear a mask. ..."and as he( Jesus) reclined at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners were reclining with Jesus and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eatwith tax collectors and sinners?” And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” To anyone that says but there are hypocrites there, I suggest; "There is always room for more come. Please feel invited and welcomed by us, come praise God with us. Come as you are. Care for coffee and a donut?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Of course churches are full of hypocrites. Christians will tell you that. No one claims the perfect are gathered to worship God. My Lord came not for the righteous, but for the sinners, many mask wearers, weary and wanting to drop their facade gather at the local bodies of Christ Jesus to worship in awe and fear of God praising Him wondrous mercy and grace, not to tout one's own merit. For there is none to tout.. 'Hypocrite' comes from the Greek word 'hypokrites', which means "an actor." ..."and as he( Jesus) reclined at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners were reclining with Jesus and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eatwith tax collectors and sinners?” And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” To anyone that says but there are hypocrites there, I suggest; "There is always room for more come. Please feel invited and welcomed by us, come praise God with us. Come as you are. Care for coffee and a donut?" But Jesus always instructed people to stop being hypocrites. That's why he confronted the pharisees. There are churches which don't do this. It's one thing to invite in someone who is a pagan, and does not know G-d, and then show them the joy of forgiveness and repentance. In that case, they cease being a sinner. It's a totally different thing, to have someone say "oh yeah I'm a Christian" and they are sleeping with their girl friend, and no one says anything. The pagans look at that and say "why would I want to be a hypocrite like you?" And they are right. If we are just letting people claim to be Christian, and live any way they want, even the pagans can see what a fraud that is. This is why Luke 16;8 says "for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.". You don't think so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, LonerAndy said: In that case, they cease being a sinner They are still a sinner same as all those that are saved by Grace alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,243 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,845 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2020 On 1/5/2020 at 3:15 AM, LonerAndy said: Our culture today is child-centric. We have deified our children. Parents choose churches, based on their child programs. When you look at church budgets, 3/4ths go to children ministries. The entire pagan, and church world, revolves around kids. You can hear it in how church advertise. Bring your kids to (insert event) it will be fun!..... Fun... not godly... not educational... not character building.... "Fun" is what kids want. 6. Being unwilling to deal with hard subjects, because hard subjects are not family friendly. Both of these are tied to the previous two. Having kid-centered churches, results in church that do not deal with hard issues of life. Because their hard issues of life, are not "fun". Like dealing with porn, fornication, proper roles for men and women, and not even being able to say the word "Breast" which is in the Bible, but somehow banned from church. In ages past, none of these adult issues had to be dealt with in public, and so church became sanitized into a kid centered affair where hard topics were never talked about. But today, if you don't teach your kids about sex, someone else will. If the church, and parents don't, then they'll learn from their pagan friends, at their pagan schools, that they can self-identify as an M1 Tank, and it's evil and bigoted of religious people to say otherwise. If not there, then the media, or TV, or the internet, or the movies, or their co-workers, or somewhere. We need to make the church into a place for adults, not kids. We need to make the church, where G-d teaches people how to live life, not "have fun". Anyway.... that's pretty much what I see as the biggest problems today. I think most of the rest of our issues, all stem from these issues. I think we would likely deal with all those other problems, if the church wasn't so kid-friendly and culture centered. Would like to ask you first, LonerAndy, are you married, and do you have children, young or old? (just noticed your name) Andy said; We have deified our children. Parents choose churches, based on their child programs. I did just that! As do my own children with their kids. A wise move, to a FAMILY oriented complete body of believers, not prejudiced against children. Never heard of such a church, except maybe a retirement community church. Andy said; We need to make the church into a place for adults, not kids. We need to make the church, where G-d teaches people how to live life, not "have fun" Believers should be the most joyous of all people, whatever age, and and not a bunch of grumpy old cantankerous 'adults'. Our church has plenty of old seasoned grand parents, being jumped on by the kids. And they love it. Andy said; Having kid-centered churches, results in church that do not deal with hard issues of life. Don't know of any "kid-centered churches, but any church needs to address all ages, and that includes children. We have at least fourteen bible studies, kinder to the ninety yr olds, dealing with the hard stuff. Our pastor deals with those tough problems we face, and does not water it down. And there is plenty enough things to wear out the 'adults' to do. By the way, it's the parents and grandparents who are supporting the church, then years later, those pesky kids!........ Andy said; I think most of the rest of our issues, all stem from these issues. I think we would likely deal with all those other problems, if the church wasn't so kid-friendly and culture centered. Personally, I couldn't disagree more. The future of the church is only one generation from falling away. Instilling character, honesty, truth, the word, Godliness into our children should not be blamed for the problems the adults have today. If there's too much emphasis on children in your church, Andy, change churches. The body is made of many parts, old and young. What better place to have your kids meet friends, learn about the bible, grow up with Godly instruction, than church. I remember hearing Christian advice about those kids that you think overwhelm your church, Andy. The message was actually simple. Get and try to keep your children involved in age appropriate church activities, the opposite to what you suggest. I remember hearing the importance of creating a friendly atmosphere for the young, challenges for the older youth, God oriented. Remember specifically hearing that if the church you attend has no children activities, then pick up and move. My wife and I with our new family now had a new responsibility, so I listened up. And became involved. Our church has many programs that teach, memorizing scripture at early age, fifth quarter for teenagers after football games, where two thirds of the kids were non church goers, having a blast after a game, snacks, games and the gospel presentation, professions of faith, and at least one of the youths I know of that was saved, went on to become a pastor himself. Awanas program on Wednesday night also for children and youth, projects and outreach to communities, collections for the needy, derby races, basket ball tournaments, summer youth camps and missionary work into Mexico, etc etc. Of my three children, all met their future spouses in church, church outreach, or church youth programs. It works. These young growing children are the next generation to carry on the battles we leave with them. Train up a child the way he should go. I'm sure you wouldn't want these kids to be deprived of learning to conduct themselves as a Christian. Adult activities are not lacking, as when my wife is not home, I can find her at church. (or Walmart:) When the church becomes just the old folks, with no young families, no children, then it will die out. The church's families with more continuing families born into and growing up and having their own families, keeps the body alive, thriving. Our church is over a hundred and thirty years old. And we still preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 minute ago, Sower said: Would like to ask you first, LonerAndy, are you married, and do you have children, young or old? (just noticed your name) Andy said; We have deified our children. Parents choose churches, based on their child programs. I did just that! As do my own children with their kids. A wise move, to a FAMILY oriented complete body of believers, not prejudiced against children. Never heard of such a church, except maybe a retirement community church. Andy said; We need to make the church into a place for adults, not kids. We need to make the church, where G-d teaches people how to live life, not "have fun" Believers should be the most joyous of all people, whatever age, and and not a bunch of grumpy old cantankerous 'adults'. Our church has plenty of old seasoned grand parents, being jumped on by the kids. And they love it. Andy said; Having kid-centered churches, results in church that do not deal with hard issues of life. Don't know of any "kid-centered churches, but any church needs to address all ages, and that includes children. We have at least fourteen bible studies, kinder to the ninety yr olds, dealing with the hard stuff. Our pastor deals with those tough problems we face, and does not water it down. And there is plenty enough things to wear out the 'adults' to do. By the way, it's the parents and grandparents who are supporting the church, then years later, those pesky kids!........ Andy said; I think most of the rest of our issues, all stem from these issues. I think we would likely deal with all those other problems, if the church wasn't so kid-friendly and culture centered. Personally, I couldn't disagree more. The future of the church is only one generation from falling away. Instilling character, honesty, truth, the word, Godliness into our children should not be blamed for the problems the adults have today. If there's too much emphasis on children in your church, Andy, change churches. The body is made of many parts, old and young. What better place to have your kids meet friends, learn about the bible, grow up with Godly instruction, than church. I remember hearing Christian advice about those kids that you think overwhelm your church, Andy. The message was actually simple. Get and try to keep your children involved in age appropriate church activities, the opposite to what you suggest. I remember hearing the importance of creating a friendly atmosphere for the young, challenges for the older youth, God oriented. Remember specifically hearing that if the church you attend has no children activities, then pick up and move. My wife and I with our new family now had a new responsibility, so I listened up. And became involved. Our church has many programs that teach, memorizing scripture at early age, fifth quarter for teenagers after football games, where two thirds of the kids were non church goers, having a blast after a game, snacks, games and the gospel presentation, professions of faith, and at least one of the youths I know of that was saved, went on to become a pastor himself. Awanas program on Wednesday night also for children and youth, projects and outreach to communities, collections for the needy, derby races, basket ball tournaments, summer youth camps and missionary work into Mexico, etc etc. Of my three children, all met their future spouses in church, church outreach, or church youth programs. It works. These young growing children are the next generation to carry on the battles we leave with them. Train up a child the way he should go. I'm sure you wouldn't want these kids to be deprived of learning to conduct themselves as a Christian. Adult activities are not lacking, as when my wife is not home, I can find her at church. (or Walmart:) When the church becomes just the old folks, with no young families, no children, then it will die out. The church's families with more continuing families born into and growing up and having their own families, keeps the body alive, thriving. Our church is over a hundred and thirty years old. And we still preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified! I apologize, the text editor is turning my text various colors, and I don't know why. Nope not married. The name is accurate to who I am, and have always been my whole life. Don't read into it too much. I've always been more comfortable alone, and always knew I'd be alone my whole life, even as a kid decades ago. A wise move, to a FAMILY oriented complete body of believers, not prejudiced against children. Never heard of such a church, except maybe a retirement community church. Try and hear me out on this. I have no problem being family oriented. That's not the issue. But in the last 10 or 20 years, I have been shocked about the amount of time and effort, and of course money, has been sunk into kid-centered activities. And then the kids get out of high school, and they vanish into thin air, saying they don't believe this stuff, and never did. And I have to ask... why? One especially large church I used to go to, the budget of the church, was about 3/4ths all kid stuff. Not helping the poor, or visiting cancer patients.... and I'm not saying those are specifically things they should be doing, but it wasn't ministering to the public, or reaching out to the lost... it was play time for Timmy programs. Being family oriented, is not the same, as making idols of your children. If you are more concerned about making the church into a giant kid-centered-entertainment-group... then you are teaching your kids a very bad lesson. That G-d exist to make them happy, and that world revolves around them. That's exactly why kids reach college age, and turn their backs on their faith, because you never taught them about G-d, only about how Church was a social club. Now, it would appear from your statement that your church does not have this problem. Fantastic. I'm just saying I see this as a problem in general. Your specific church maybe has a fantastic system. Great. But just looking back on my youth, out of the dozen or two dozen kids when I was growing up.... I think... 3 of them still go to church? So I just kind of think there's an issue there. Don't you? Believers should be the most joyous of all people, whatever age, and and not a bunch of grumpy old cantankerous 'adults'. Our church has plenty of old seasoned grand parents, being jumped on by the kids. And they love it. You seem to be implying that being adult, means not being happy or joyous. Of course that isn't the case. Personally, I couldn't disagree more. The future of the church is only one generation from falling away. Instilling character, honesty, truth, the word, Godliness into our children should not be blamed for the problems the adults have today. If there's too much emphasis on children in your church, Andy, change churches. The body is made of many parts, old and young. Well yes, and that is my whole point. We've had these kid-centered churches for some time, and..... the generation is falling away. like I said above, we had dozens of kids, and the vast majority vanished. Pumping all that time, money, and effort into non-stop kid stuff... didn't work. And again...you can disagree, and I respect that.... but I just kind of think..... well maybe we made church so much into a kid thing, that once they stopped being kids they left, because the church isn't for adults. Again, your church sounds like it has the right system. More power to you. Well done for the Kingdom of God. I'm saying I've seen churches, where adult things were.... honestly an after thought. All of the focus was on kids. Well... then the kids grow up, and they leave. I've seen it. I've witnessed it. Several times in my life even, at several churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,186 Content Per Day: 3.50 Reputation: 8,484 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Online Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 7, 2020 On 12/29/2019 at 5:59 AM, missmuffet said: 10 biggest problems Christian Americans are facing today: 1. A diluted faith. 2. Or is it something else? Pride 3. Biblical illiteracy. 4. Do we have closed minds? 5. Which way should we go? 6. Have we become the Church of Laodicea? 7. A lack of honesty 8. Bad publicity. 9. Back to the basics? 10. Are we willing to serve? I believe the biggest problem is - not holding fast to the HEAD, (Christ) (Col.2:19) and everything else comes from that. People make the denomination their Head, or man, or love of material things etc etc. `Let no one cheat you of your reward......and not holding fast to the HEAD, from whom all the Body, nourished and nit together by liagments, grows with the increase that is from God.` (Col. 2: 18 & 19) If people think that our Christian walk is about the denomination and what it does then they will be very surprised to see that it will still go on in the tribulation. WE are to make disciples, mentor others, not man`s system! Marilyn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted January 7, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,243 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,845 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2020 51 minutes ago, LonerAndy said: Again, your church sounds like it has the right system. More power to you. Well done for the Kingdom of God. I'm saying I've seen churches, where adult things were.... honestly an after thought. All of the focus was on kids. Well... then the kids grow up, and they leave. I've seen it. I've witnessed it. Several times in my life even, at several churches I understand. I'm just not familiar with any churches you describe, and not saying they don't exist. Like any thing with mixed groups, there has to be a balance. Nursery school is not what the church is about. Now concerning the worldly view of children, I would then agree that it has become a kids rule. I even commented to this affect to my wife recently, scanning TV programs during commercials, all about super boy/girls. Perhaps finding a church more suited to your needs would be beneficial. If the concerted effort in a church for kids didn't work, it wasn't the kids fault, but those entertaining then and not instructing them. Look at the government run schools. "I apologize, the text editor is turning my text various colors, and I don't know why." Sorry about that. I always try to distinguish what has been posted by others, scripture, and my own dialog, using different color.. Haven't figured out how to post multiple 'parts' of different posts, so I 'color code' them:) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts