The War With Satan

[Michael37]

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 Do we have the right to ask,  "which heaven,  1st,2nd or 3rd?"  The angels have only one abode.   Heaven!  The abode of God almighty. 

Deut 10:14: Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD’s your God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

1 King 8:27: But will God indeed dwell on the earth?  Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?

2 Chr 2:6: But who is able to build him a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him?  Who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

[Michael37]

On 1/4/2020 at 9:08 PM, eileenhat said:

I don't expect the Father would create something that would turn against him. 

Not without a remedy for it. 

The Suffering Servant: Isaiah 53:6
…5But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. 6We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth.…Berean Study Bible ·

[Michael37]

32 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

No one is denying the 3 heavens.  

That's good.

37 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I have asked you to provide your evidence of scripture that Satan does not have access to the third heaven. 

Let me ask you, What principle do you see being taught in these Scriptures? It's one that fills the Bible from start to finish.

2Co 6:14-18
(14)  Be you not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?
(15)  And what concord has Christ with Belial? (Satan) or what part has he that believes with an infidel?
(16)  And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(17)  Wherefore come out from among them, and be you separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
(18)  And will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.
1Co 10:20-22
(20)  But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that you should have fellowship with devils.
(21)  You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
(22)  Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
Rev 2:12-13
(12)  And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things says he which has the sharp sword with two edges;
(13)  I know your works, and where you dwell, even where Satan's seat is: and you hold fast my name, and have not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

[Roymond]

On 1/1/2020 at 4:47 AM, other one said:

actually it is the Holy Spirit that takes authority over the evil one and that's what's getting in the way of some people.   They try and do it on their own power..   and it doesn't work unless we apply the power of the Holy Spirit over the situation.   I've seen it over the years nearly tear people apart when what they take upon themselves not using the power of God.   

 

 

I gave this to my grand daughter for her birthday (10th) to remind her who she is and everyone needs one to remind them of who we are   We are born spiritually into the Family of the creator of the Universe.....   that makes Jesus our brother/Lord/God....   and it is the Spirit that the Father sent that protects us and guides us until Jesus returns....   it is that Spirit that overpowers the works of Satan and his evil brood...

I'm reminded of a Lutheran theology professor from Australia who commented on how to face the Devil:  he said he just reminds the bloody pest that he has been baptized into Christ's death, and if the Devil wanted to swim in those waters, he would leave that up to Jesus.

That's a spiritual moat the Enemy cannot cross.

[Roymond]

On 1/3/2020 at 8:44 AM, Da Puppers said:

I would like to see some scriptural justification for believing this.   Cause this is not what I find.  E.g.,

Verse list:    
Rev 21:2-3 KJV    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of HEAVEN, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of HEAVEN saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Is this the same heaven as this: 

Rev 12:4 KJV And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

It's the same Greek word,  ouranos.  It appears that you are you using an otherwise unsubstantiated (by the scriptures)  doctrinal position to interpret what a particular scripture means.   Please provide a basis for this belief about how heaven is defined. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

This is one reason people have spoken of three heavens -- some things are said about heaven that (to our minds at least) don't match.

Remember that the view from Revelation isn't concerned much at all with calendars or chronology; it depicts a spiritual war that began long ago and just keeps on.  So the reference to the dragon sweeping a third of the stars from the sky has been taken for most of church history to mean that when Satan rebelled he took a third of the angels with him.  That's an event that can't be pinpointed in time;  Jesus says He watched it happen, yet we know that in temporal terms that occurred when our first parents were still in Eden!

[Roymond]

On 1/3/2020 at 6:48 PM, Michael37 said:

I think you should research the three heavens. There are many sites that explore Paul's account. We will just have to agree to disagree.

The idea of three heavens comes from Jewish traditions.  From that perspective, the third heaven is equated to Paradise and is said to be the Garden of Eden which was "removed to another place" so it wouldn't be destroyed by the Flood, and is thus the lowest heaven, the one that humans have to "get back to" before ascending further.

In Greek thought it was the other way around; the first heaven was the low one and the third the highest.

Both of these got mixed in with Christian thought -- but I think that as a Jew, Paul meant what that Jewish tradition said, so he meant the lowest heaven.

[Roymond]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:40 PM, Michael37 said:

We are permitted to exhort and edify one another. Notice the plurality of heavens from the beginning of the Bible. You put forth your own theories about the elect angels so back at you.

Gen 1:1
(1)  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
 

For what it's worth, in the ancient near east the plural got used to mean a singular thing of vast expanse.

Now I'm trying to imagine God showing Moses what we've only seen through the Hubble space telescope.....

[Roymond]

On 1/3/2020 at 8:28 PM, Michael37 said:

I believe the simple gist of the metaphorical display in Rev 12  is that the conflict between the Will of God and the will of Satan intensifies to the point where Satan's activity is confined to earth, rather than having access to the celestial heaven as prior to being cast down. One school of thought is that this in fact has happened already as a result of Christ's ascension which gives rise to the proclamation of verse 10 below. 

Rev 12:7-10
(7)  And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
(8)  but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
(9)  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10)  Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

When reading some Christology material it occurred to me that Satan would have fled from Heaven when Christ ascended because here in what was the spiritual realm there is somehow a physical, human, body, the one human he couldn't get to, and he realized at that point that all of human nature was going to get repaired and the game was over -- and now he fights both out of habit and for survival.  He would have understood in that moment that if a human person sat at the right hand of God, then every single human there ever was or will be could end up his superior!

[Michael37]

1 minute ago, Roymond said:

For what it's worth, in the ancient near east the plural got used to mean a singular thing of vast expanse.

Now I'm trying to imagine God showing Moses what we've only seen through the Hubble space telescope.....

Yes, the heavens opened. Different syntax to referencing a specific heaven by number.

[Roymond]

On 1/4/2020 at 6:40 PM, Da Puppers said:

You bring out a point,  which actually brings out a second point.   

In verse 4, it says that his tail, [drew]  swept [out] a third of the stars of heaven.   The origination of events doesn't start with a war in heaven between Satan and Michael,  but with the appearance of a woman expectant in child birth.   And so [God hatches his plan to "draw"] Satan from his heavenly abode, vacates his place,  for the explicit purpose of devouring the child.   An evil scheme is Satan's response...And it manifests his hearts desire... And the desires of those who would follow his lead... devour the child.   There is just one hitch.  He must leave the "comfy" confines of heaven to prevent the world from believing (in) this sign from heaven.   [By the way,  this sign of the woman giving birth,  is the 'sign of the son of man IN heaven '].  And "his angels" follow him (are drawn out after him).  And [THEN] there was war in heaven.   Michael and his angels VERSUS Satan and his angels.   This sign has elucidated the evil desires of the "wicked" angels...to follow Satan...to leave heavens abode.   And now that THEIR evil desires have been manifested, Michael stands up to prevent their return.   They can no longer return to the former abode. 

So,  you are right.  The war in heaven didn't begin until the woman gives birth.   By the way... The woman is not Mary... nor is she (the people of) Israel.   Isaiah 66 repeatedly says that she (the woman)  is Zion,  the city of the great king,  aka Jerusalem.   This is her anointing.  The declaration to all the world.   Jerusalem is Jesus's capital from where he will reign.   1260 days later [just like Solomon was anointed a second time before he sat on the throne of his father David, 1Chr 29:22,23], Jesus will then sit upon the throne of David. 

So what is the second point? It is this:  One third OF THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN.   One third of the WHOLE.   One third of the whole part of the angels.   What ONE place is the abode of ALL of the angels?  "... Of Heaven."   Do we have the right to ask,  "which heaven,  1st,2nd or 3rd?"  The angels have only one abode.   Heaven!  The abode of God almighty. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

The war in heaven was/is all about names:  Satan had declared, "I will be like the Most High".  His opponent comes with his name as the reply: Mi-cha-el means "Who is like God?" but is also its own answer, "He is like God" -- pointing to Jesus.

I can imagine Lucifer making that declaration, and Michael, hearing it, recalled that the Son of God was already crucified before the foundation of the world, and said to no one in particular, "Sorry, Lu old boy, but that position's taken".