Jump to content
IGNORED

The War With Satan


Michael37

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

13 hours ago, Roymond said:

No, He doesn't -- that's twisting the grammar.  It has nothing to do with any specific time labelled "The Tribulation".  The word is actually being used adjectivally; it's describing the nature of "those days".  That's obvious because it's followed by "of those days", meaning that the distressing events are characteristic of the days being discussed.  Basic English grammar.

It's the same with "great tribulation." Man tries to make that a title to the last half of the week, when it will only be days of great tribulation during the last half of the week.

Never the less, Jesus did call those days "the tribulation." He was making a timing point: "immediately after "those days" of "tribulation," so time was included. That tells me that one day, probably after the vials of wrath and plagues, there will just be dark days of dread, but they won't be days of pressure.

Edited by iamlamad
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  782
  • Content Per Day:  1.66
  • Reputation:   238
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  12/15/2022
  • Status:  Offline

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Never the less, Jesus did call those days "the tribulation." He was making a timing point: "immediately after "those days" of "tribulation," so time was included. That tells me that one day, probably after the vials of wrath and plagues, there will just be dark days of dread, but they won't be days of pressure.

No He didn't -- that's twisting the grammar.  The genitive "of those days" shows that "tribulation" is in an adjectival relationship to "those days".  "Tribulation" is not a title, it's a description!  There is no "those days of tribulation"; that's backwards.

Besides which, "those days" already happened; He's referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  23
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  8,272
  • Content Per Day:  2.10
  • Reputation:   688
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  06/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline

15 hours ago, Roymond said:

No He didn't -- that's twisting the grammar.  The genitive "of those days" shows that "tribulation" is in an adjectival relationship to "those days".  "Tribulation" is not a title, it's a description!  There is no "those days of tribulation"; that's backwards.

Besides which, "those days" already happened; He's referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I agree with you that "great tribulation" is not a title. Jesus was making a TIMING point, using the word "after."

No, sorry, but Jesus was talking about days of great tribulation still in our future. The Jews have never seen their final week. Please tell me you believe in the future - you are not lost somewhere in the past.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  5
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  782
  • Content Per Day:  1.66
  • Reputation:   238
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  12/15/2022
  • Status:  Offline

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree with you that "great tribulation" is not a title. Jesus was making a TIMING point, using the word "after."

No, sorry, but Jesus was talking about days of great tribulation still in our future. The Jews have never seen their final week. Please tell me you believe in the future - you are not lost somewhere in the past.

The chapter begins:

Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

That sets the topic.  Then the disciples ask:

“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

"These things" refers to Jesus' statement above.  So until something suggests otherwise, He's talking about the stones of the Temple being thrown down and the things that accompany that.

By the time He reaches verse 15, Jesus is still talking about that:

“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)"

"Let the reader understand" is a comment by the writer that points to his actual readers back then as being able to recognize these things when they occur -- so He's still answering the question about when the Temple will be thrown down.

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be"

This is the point where a shift might occur, but Jesus is already speaking in apocalyptic (literature) terms; whether this is still about the days when the Temple will be thrown down is a judgment call.  But the very next verse points back at the opic of the Temple:

"Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise"

That's a perfect description of the times between Jesus' Ascension and the event the disciples were asking about!  In that bit of time there were a good dozen men claiming to be the Messiah; Jesus is saying not to listen to them; His return isn't yet.

So we get to verse 29 where it says "those days".  What days?  The ones He's just been talking about, that started after He ascended and led to the destruction of the Temple (and Jerusalem along with it), and keep going until ... when?:

"...the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man..."

That's the end of the days He's talking about.  But then He says something a bit strange:

"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

To Jesus' audience, "this generation" would mean the generation he was talking to, in which case forty years from then, or the generation He was born into, which by Jewish counting would be seventy-five years from His birth -- and both of those measures arrive at 70 A.D. when four Roman legions commanded by Titus accidentally set the Temple on fire and went on to capture and level the city (except for three towers he left to show how strong the city had been).  Thus everything He's said would take place would happen between then and up to and including 70 A.D.

Why do people try to apply it to later times?  It's not just because we want to know what's in the future (though we do), it's not just because we want to think that we're the ones who will get to see Jesus return (though we do), but also, for those who've studied such things, because Jesus shifted into apocalyptic prophecy, which has an interesting characteristic:  the very same statement can indicate two different things.  The first meaning is always nearer (in time), the second farther, but they are in some way the same event.

So the end times began with Jesus' Ascension, as did "these things", but in the primary sense of the passage they finished when the Temple fell and Jerusalem was destroyed.

Thus we're still in "those days", but at the same time we're waiting for this:

"‘the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

So if that's the sense you mean, fine -- but the primary meaning was for the people right there, a good number of whom would still be around when 70 A.D. and its momentous events happened -- perhaps some were in Jerusalem itself.  And it was these words of Jesus that prompted a large part, perhaps the majority, of Christians in the city to flee when the news came that four Roman legions were on their way [trivia:  cities similar to Jerusalem had been captured by just two legions; bringing four meant Titus intended to get it over with quickly, so people in the city who understood how the Romans worked would have known that the city would fall and would be destroyed].

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...