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Catalyst to the Russian War.


Marilyn C

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5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And that would fit the passage from Ruth quite well.   

I have a white undershirt which is similar with the tassels.

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22 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

oops, maybe a double post.

All the allegories and apocalypse are just that. Too much literalism gets us into knots...

So are you saying none of it will happen?  Selected portions?  Just the good stuff, maybe?

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12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

Similarities but also differences. Here is another difference -

1. Russian war against Israel on the mountains of Israel. God deals with them -

`I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains," says the Lord God, "Every man`s sword will be against his brother. And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.` (Ez. 38: 21 & 22)

2. The World War against Israel. The world`s armies loot and kill in Jerusalem and then gather in the Valley of Jehoshaphat outside Jerusalem. God deals with them -

`I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there.` (Joel 3: 2)

`And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem : their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, and their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.` (Zech. 14: 12) 

Marilyn.

True. It seems a difference or two does not cancel the similarities.  Because my favorite sports team goes to play in a different city does not mean the game changes. But I don't think it's a literal mountain.

"will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains"

'Throughout ALL MY mountains' is the phrase. That is idiomatic for pleading in judgment. It can't be a single mountain or limited to a range in a region as it's "all My mountains". Where did the translators get 'throughout all My mountains' from the single word 'har'? Because they knew it's an idiom for judgment. 

In Eze 39:4-6, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured. 

"Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD. And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD."

Gog, whom we all say is the head of Magog or the great Russian invader, is falling on both mountain and open field. A fire is also sent on the isles. So this looks like a much greater scope than a regional conflict and fits with the idiomatic term of 'mountains; in the sense of judgment, and the battle in the Valley of Decision.

"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken."

By this then it seems the finality of it all has been reached. This is the end of the Gog war begun in Eze 38. If this happens at the beginning of the 70th week does Israel stop polluting the name of the Lord? Would the heathen acknowledge the Lord? It would seem not as the A of D is yet to occur. Then what of "this [is] the day whereof I have spoken."? Is this not the return of the Lord to mete out wrath, judgment and vengeance?

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So are you saying none of it will happen?  Selected portions?  Just the good stuff, maybe?

Just like David repurposed the Baal cycle in some psalms and the Mesopotamian and Ugarit deity cycles were trounced by the ancient writers who made Yahweh the God of gods, so the allusion such as the reestablishment of David's Tent or Tabernacle in the bodily form of our Lord is Tanakh-speaks for general allusions.

Zechariah is full of this kind of thing and rather than take it absolutely literally, the theme is a constant throughout and speaks of a massive cosmological upheaval that includes heaven and earth and the inhabitants of both. The alliteration is both more real than our penchant for technocratic timelines, and more encompassing. Read it all in light of the context and understanding of those to whom it was written. They had a high view  of Enoch and other intertestamental writings and were far more spiritually  attuned than our modern day pragmatic and prosaic thought processes. For instance, Gal 2-3 alludes to the sins of the Watchers and the writings then make far more sense if we see the 'transgressions' as referring to the angels that sinned, rather than poor old Adam..

Reading the church fathers also gives a hint as to what they saw as being more real than our modern focus on just a few apocalyptic 'events'.

The apostles were acutely aware of the principalities and powers and evil in high places. Yeshua told them..'as in the days of Noah'. So we had better be thoroughly schooled in those time to make sense of Matt 24.

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9 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Just like David repurposed the Baal cycle in some psalms and the Mesopotamian and Ugarit deity cycles were trounced by the ancient writers who made Yahweh the God of gods, so the allusion such as the reestablishment of David's Tent or Tabernacle in the bodily form of our Lord is Tanakh-speaks for general allusions.

Zechariah is full of this kind of thing and rather than take it absolutely literally, the theme is a constant throughout and speaks of a massive cosmological upheaval that includes heaven and earth and the inhabitants of both. The alliteration is both more real than our penchant for technocratic timelines, and more encompassing. Read it all in light of the context and understanding of those to whom it was written. They had a high view  of Enoch and other intertestamental writings and were far more spiritually  attuned than our modern day pragmatic and prosaic thought processes. For instance, Gal 2-3 alludes to the sins of the Watchers and the writings then make far more sense if we see the 'transgressions' as referring to the angels that sinned, rather than poor old Adam..

Reading the church fathers also gives a hint as to what they saw as being more real than our modern focus on just a few apocalyptic 'events'.

The apostles were acutely aware of the principalities and powers and evil in high places. Yeshua told them..'as in the days of Noah'. So we had better be thoroughly schooled in those time to make sense of Matt 24.

Which doesn't answer the questions and seems to muddy the waters. The arguments are more philosophical than fact or reality. I cannot abrogate one realm in favor of another. The interactions of both with each other are both profound and eternal. While I agree we reside in suboptimal conditions there is no justification for canceling the reality of this dimension. 

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5 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Which doesn't answer the questions and seems to muddy the waters. The arguments are more philosophical than fact or reality. I cannot abrogate one realm in favor of another. The interactions of both with each other are both profound and eternal. While I agree we reside in suboptimal conditions there is no justification for canceling the reality of this dimension. 

What you say is correct. The waters were so muddy that nobody (least of all the spirits) knew of Yeshua's first advent and reason for being on earth, though the advent was in the stars for those that could see them (the heavens declare the Glory of God).

Secondly, if a 'quantum vision' was beheld by a prophet or prophets, they could only describe that in terms they were conversant with. (not as a nuclear physicist would)

We are stuck with a second advent that will happen yet the likes of it can only be appreciated with 'a sideways glance'. Like if you are searching the heavens for dimly lit stars. Do not look directly at them, look to the side.

I do not see the 'rapture' as a separate event from the second coming or the 1000 year reign. That God will reign is certain, that Har-meg-digo (not mediggo) will be the Great Zion fight for all the marbles (Jerusalem) is well certain throughout the prophecies that all agree on one or more points. What is not seen is the cosmology that was evident to the ancient scholars that sometimes describes the Unseen Real and sometimes the physical realities we at present can see with our eyes.

The second advent is deliberately obscured yet the apocalyptic language leaves us in no doubt as to its severity. Millions have been made selling books about something we really are unsure about. This is because at present we cannot see or imagine the heavenly realms very well. 'As in heaven, so one earth' has much meaning in the end times scenarios.

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22 hours ago, Diaste said:

True. It seems a difference or two does not cancel the similarities.  Because my favorite sports team goes to play in a different city does not mean the game changes. But I don't think it's a literal mountain.

"will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains"

'Throughout ALL MY mountains' is the phrase. That is idiomatic for pleading in judgment. It can't be a single mountain or limited to a range in a region as it's "all My mountains". Where did the translators get 'throughout all My mountains' from the single word 'har'? Because they knew it's an idiom for judgment. 

In Eze 39:4-6, "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured. 

"Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD. And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I [am] the LORD."

Gog, whom we all say is the head of Magog or the great Russian invader, is falling on both mountain and open field. A fire is also sent on the isles. So this looks like a much greater scope than a regional conflict and fits with the idiomatic term of 'mountains; in the sense of judgment, and the battle in the Valley of Decision.

"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken."

By this then it seems the finality of it all has been reached. This is the end of the Gog war begun in Eze 38. If this happens at the beginning of the 70th week does Israel stop polluting the name of the Lord? Would the heathen acknowledge the Lord? It would seem not as the A of D is yet to occur. Then what of "this [is] the day whereof I have spoken."? Is this not the return of the Lord to mete out wrath, judgment and vengeance.

 

Hi Diaste,

And we could say some similarities should not cancel out the differences, ay. But the different venue means a different venue.

Yes, `har` means a mountain or a range of hills. And God has written it many times in Ez. 38 & 39. `...and bring you against the mountains of Israel.` (Ez. 39: 2) `You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel.` (v.4) etc  And also `on the open field,` (v. 5)

BUT God`s word NEVER says in or near JERUSALEM in Ez. 38 & 39. The Russian Federation does NOT come near Jerusalem and is not annihilated by their flesh dissolving.

Major differences there bro.

Marilyn.

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13 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

What you say is correct. The waters were so muddy that nobody (least of all the spirits) knew of Yeshua's first advent and reason for being on earth, though the advent was in the stars for those that could see them (the heavens declare the Glory of God).

Secondly, if a 'quantum vision' was beheld by a prophet or prophets, they could only describe that in terms they were conversant with. (not as a nuclear physicist would)

We are stuck with a second advent that will happen yet the likes of it can only be appreciated with 'a sideways glance'. Like if you are searching the heavens for dimly lit stars. Do not look directly at them, look to the side.

I do not see the 'rapture' as a separate event from the second coming or the 1000 year reign. That God will reign is certain, that Har-meg-digo (not mediggo) will be the Great Zion fight for all the marbles (Jerusalem) is well certain throughout the prophecies that all agree on one or more points. What is not seen is the cosmology that was evident to the ancient scholars that sometimes describes the Unseen Real and sometimes the physical realities we at present can see with our eyes.

The second advent is deliberately obscured yet the apocalyptic language leaves us in no doubt as to its severity. Millions have been made selling books about something we really are unsure about. This is because at present we cannot see or imagine the heavenly realms very well. 'As in heaven, so one earth' has much meaning in the end times scenarios.

Ah! I understand your view. I agree. We are about the witness things that have never been seen, live through that which no one has lived through. And you are correct, it cannot be seen clearly prior. Well, some of us do see, but few hear.

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1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

And we could say some similarities should not cancel out the differences, ay. But the different venue means a different venue.

Yes, `har` means a mountain or a range of hills. And God has written it many times in Ez. 38 & 39. `...and bring you against the mountains of Israel.` (Ez. 39: 2) `You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel.` (v.4) etc  And also `on the open field,` (v. 5)

BUT God`s word NEVER says in or near JERUSALEM in Ez. 38 & 39. The Russian Federation does NOT come near Jerusalem and is not annihilated by their flesh dissolving.

Major differences there bro.

Marilyn.

Agreed. But which mountains? Mountains in Israel are on the coast, form the Jordan valley [Mountains of Ephraim are on the west side of the Jordan river], and are located from the north to the south. This is why I see 'all My mountains' as a statement of impending judgment upon the Eze 38-39 army, and 'against the mountains of Israel' as both literal and spiritual. In that sense 'you shall fall on the mountains of Israel' is all encompassing of both a physical destruction by righteous judgment, everywhere in Israel. In other words, Israel is overrun by this vast force, which leads back to the Eze 38-39 slaughter as one and the same as the Valley of Decision.

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On 1/5/2020 at 6:22 AM, Diaste said:

That is correct. Many don't know what you posted; 'rosh' is a title or a concept and has nothing to do with a country. 

In my mind there is another reason why Russia may indeed be involved.

The language of Eze 38 certainly suggests the rise of a great army from the north. How far north is always the question. This is why many think Turkey. I am of the mind that Turkey will be involved but the many people like a cloud to cover the land suggests it's of greater scope than Asia Minor. Add to this the idea of 'extreme', 'uttermost', 'deep recesses' from the word for 'quarters' in Eze 38 and the idea is the far north. Directly north of Israel is Turkey. Beyond that is Ukraine, Belarus and Moscow. Farther than that is Scandinavia. So Russia is almost certainly a player based on this but also Zech 14, "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it;" That has to include Russia and is in the context of the return of Jesus.

Ezekiel 38, as far as I can tell, deals with the battle in the valley of Jehoshaphat at the very end. I don't see Russia coming against Israel any time before that.

Ezekiel 38:2 (KJV) Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

My studies suggest "Rosh" and "Magog" are geographical land areas. To be brief; tracing the migration patterns of Japheth, Gomer, Magog, Tubal and Meshech clearly show the geographic area is well North of Turkey. The Scythian's were the Magog's and were mentioned and referred by first century historian Flavis Josephus, and the so called father of history, Herodotus [circa 425 B.C.]. We know the wall in China as 'the Great Wall of China'. Josephus and Herodotus identify it as "the Ramparts of Magog". Built to keep out the terrifying  Magog's / Scythian's [now Russia] out of China. They were a very cruel and fierce people exceptionally skilled in war and raids on horseback with weapons. 

Where do you place the Gog-Magog invasion in reference to the tribulation? Consider the following verse, and compare it to the abomination of desolation that occurs 3 1/2 years into the tribulation. Who will be left in Israel at mid-trib to continue to burn those weapons for fuel for seven years? All Jew's, Christians and everyone else will be fleeing for their lives. Whom would be left or even care to continue burning those weapons for fuel? Therefore, by that thought, this Gog-Magog invasion has to occur a minimum of 3 1/2 year prior to the start of the tribulation. How do you see it?

Ezekiel 39:9 (KJV) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

It's interesting to think about.

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