The Behaviour That Brings Down Babylon

[Michael37]

I've come across a new word being used by journalists, "infotainment". It's not so much the concept of information for entertainment that inspires me to comment, but rather the ease with which the general public at large are induced to behave in a particular way.   Obviously there are competing factions involved and history is rich in details of regimes that rise to power for a time until their weakest link gives way and they are replaced by the champions of the day.

The backlash against the colonialism of the British Empire is gaining momentum in my country, with the replacement of many European names considered inappropriate and culturally insensitive to the so-called indigenous tribes (who were themselves originally migrants) happening, and laws that require schools to teach Maori as an official language, and NZ history lessons to reference the evils of colonialism, being passed. 

Fast forward to the biblical account of the fall of Babylon and we gain insight into the behaviour of humanity wherein those who are aggrieved at the mess produced by the corrupt, deceiving, exploitative ideologies, technologies, and mediologies of their day, take serious retributive action that results globally in the complete disruption of services and total breakdown of society.

God's purpose in allowing harlotry and tyranny to eventually bring down Babylon is perfect.      

     

Rev 17:15-18
(15)  Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
(16)  And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
(17)  For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
(18)  And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

[Michael37]

I've been otherwise occupied since I started this thread, and presently only have a limited amount of time to expand on it, but for those interested, here are seven study sections that cover the Babylon chapters (17 & 18) in the Book of Revelation.

1. The Position of Babylon
2. The Appearance of Babylon
3. The Identification of Babylon
4. The Conveyance of Babylon
5. The Associations of Babylon
6. The Termination of Babylon
7. The Lamentation for Babylon

Later...

[Michael37]

Rev 17:12  And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Memo to self: The number ten speaks of fullness. Horns indicate force. Kings dominate minions.
 

[Michael37]

On 1/12/2020 at 5:22 PM, Michael37 said:

1. The Position of Babylon

a) Rev 17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters:

b) Rev 17:2-3  With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. (3)  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

c) Rev 17:9  And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits.

d) Rev 17:15  And he said unto me, The waters which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

e) Rev 17:18  And the woman which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.
 

Babylon sits upon many waters = upon peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues.

Babylon sits upon a scarlet coloured beast = upon the Satanic superstructure that embodies the natural wickedness of mankind with its godless ambitions. 

Babylon sits upon seven mountain heads = upon the historical empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, Political Rome, & Papal Rome. 

Babylon sits as a city of supremacy = over the earth and its leaders.

[Scott Free]

On 1/9/2020 at 6:03 PM, Michael37 said:

I've come across a new word being used by journalists, "infotainment". It's not so much the concept of information for entertainment that inspires me to comment, but rather the ease with which the general public at large are induced to behave in a particular way.   Obviously there are competing factions involved and history is rich in details of regimes that rise to power for a time until their weakest link gives way and they are replaced by the champions of the day.

The backlash against the colonialism of the British Empire is gaining momentum in my country, with the replacement of many European names considered inappropriate and culturally insensitive to the so-called indigenous tribes (who were themselves originally migrants) happening, and laws that require schools to teach Maori as an official language, and NZ history lessons to reference the evils of colonialism, being passed. 

Fast forward to the biblical account of the fall of Babylon and we gain insight into the behaviour of humanity wherein those who are aggrieved at the mess produced by the corrupt, deceiving, exploitative ideologies, technologies, and mediologies of their day, take serious retributive action that results globally in the complete disruption of services and total breakdown of society.

God's purpose in allowing harlotry and tyranny to eventually bring down Babylon is perfect.      

     

Rev 17:15-18
(15)  Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
(16)  And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
(17)  For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
(18)  And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Hello Micheal37, are you aware there is a prevalent resentment in the world that the U.K. is using the U.S.A. as a continuing extension of their colonial aspirations. The British Empire is believed to live on through Washington/New York City and is known as the Liberal International Order. There is a growing consensus to replace this order with something that can competently manage the needs of the Worlds populations.

[Michael37]

11 hours ago, Scott Free said:

Hello Micheal37, are you aware there is a prevalent resentment in the world that the U.K. is using the U.S.A. as a continuing extension of their colonial aspirations. The British Empire is believed to live on through Washington/New York City and is known as the Liberal International Order. There is a growing consensus to replace this order with something that can competently manage the needs of the Worlds populations.

Thanks for your comment, Scott Free, it has increased my understanding of the tensions that the globilisation versus nationalism debate gives rise to. Your reference to the Liberal International Order led to my researching its origins, history and influence which have their roots in a desire to resolve religious, economic, and political differences in Europe as far back as 1648 when the Peace Of Westphaliah closed a calamitous period of conflict in Europe that killed approximately eight million people.

My schooling included a focus on what was called "the invisible hand" by some theorists who used this concept to explain how economic outcomes were the result of the sum total of dynamic forces rather than any one individual. This concept also lends itself to explanations of how political, and ethical outcomes are arrived at, but in line with your input concerning the British Empire living on through the Liberal International Order, I am more inclined to explain the current raft of religious, economic, political, social, cultural, and ethical restructuring as a result of the same learned or acquired opportunism that led to colonialism, only now with the critical mass of international interests pushing for a new set of rules, battle lines are being drawn between diehard nationalists wanting to preserve the sovereignty of the state, and eager globalists pursuing unfettered access to whatever assets the world still has to offer.

We can take fair warning from Scripture in its revelation of the inevitable disappointment that occurs when that which appears desirable proves to be an unbearable burden, as does Babylon upon the entity that carries her.     

On 1/12/2020 at 5:22 PM, Michael37 said:

2. The Appearance of Babylon

a) Rev 17:4  And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
b) Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
c) Rev 17:6  And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Babylon appears as a woman who is noble = as stately, dignified, excellent, notable.

Babylon appears as a woman who is rich  = as succeeding, prospering, attracting, gaudy.

Babylon appears as a woman who is great = as expansive, important, matriarchal, idolatrous.

Babylon appears as a woman who is drunk = as excessive, indulgent, satiated, intoxicated.

[Scott Free]

I enjoyed that very much. You have given me things to consider. The invisible hand concept for economics is fascinating. After a quick read it reminds me of spiritual warfare. Where spirits are confronted as ideas and principles that govern societies, seeking to gather us into groups or bodies were we willingly or unconsciously serve a greater purpose than ourselves. I am curious to see how far this allegory will hold up after closer inspection. 

[Michael37]

On 4/20/2020 at 1:25 PM, Scott Free said:

 I am curious to see how far this allegory will hold up after closer inspection. 

Your comment brings a smile to me as I have the same concern. We must avoid taking allegories and metaphors too far so that they go beyond what is intended. Often in Scripture more than one metaphor is used to describe the same thing, and when speaking of the kingdom of heaven Jesus used numerous parables to illustrate the truth. You will know how useful a template is for producing a match, and this is much the same as our method of communication using sounds and symbols that we can identify and attach meaning to using our senses, faculties, and powers of observation. 

In Revelation John can have no doubt as to the character of the woman he sees when he is shown the inscription on her forehead. Here she is identified in a way that suggests both a labelling of evidence and a hazard warning, and as is the case with many things, her characteristics give rise to her name. The fact that everything about the woman matches the chaos and confusion caused by unregenerate humanity is at the heart of the matter.

On 1/12/2020 at 5:22 PM, Michael37 said:

3. The Identification of Babylon

 Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Babylon is named for mystery = secrets, oaths, rites, deals.

Babylon is named for greatness = expansive, important, powerful, famous.

Babylon is named for matriarchy = source, producer, ruler, matrix.

Babylon is named for harlotry = prostitutes, whores, available, saleable. 

Babylon is named for idolatry = objectionable, detestable, horrible, abominable.  

Babylon is named for sorcery = occultic, distorting, deceiving, bewitching.

[Scott Free]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Your comment brings a smile to me as I have the same concern. We must avoid taking allegories and metaphors too far so that they go beyond what is intended. Often in Scripture more than one metaphor is used to describe the same thing, and when speaking of the kingdom of heaven Jesus used numerous parables to illustrate the truth. You will know how useful a template is for producing a match, and this is much the same as our method of communication using sounds and symbols that we can identify and attach meaning to using our senses, faculties, and powers of observation. 

In Revelation John can have no doubt as to the character of the woman he sees when he is shown the inscription on her forehead. Here she is identified in a way that suggests both a labelling of evidence and a hazard warning, and as is the case with many things, her characteristics give rise to her name. The fact that everything about the woman matches the chaos and confusion caused by unregenerate humanity is at the heart of the matter.

 Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Babylon is named for mystery = secrets, oaths, rites, deals.

Babylon is named for greatness = expansive, important, powerful, famous.

Babylon is named for matriarchy = source, producer, ruler, matrix.

Babylon is named for harlotry = prostitutes, whores, available, saleable. 

Babylon is named for idolatry = objectionable, detestable, horrible, abominable.  

Hello, Micheal37.

The Whore of Babylon and Mystery Babylon seem to be distinctly different entities. The Whore is given both a specific geographical location and a definite finite time frame. Where as Mystery Babylon is unknown in specific historical context and seems to transcend time and space as an incorporeal being held responsible for something no governmental body could sensibly be held accountable to. 

I am not trying to argue. I just like having a mature debate in pro/con for the purpose of refining ideals. Peace out.

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, Scott Free said:

Hello, Micheal37. Michael37 (a before e, its Hebrew; Micha + el )

The Whore of Babylon and Mystery Babylon seem to be distinctly different entities. The Whore is given both a specific geographical location and a definite finite time frame. Where as Mystery Babylon is unknown in specific historical context and seems to transcend time and space as an incorporeal being held responsible for something no governmental body could sensibly be held accountable to. 

I am not trying to argue. I just like having a mature debate in pro/con for the purpose of refining ideals. Peace out.

Hi Scott, I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that there is some kind of demarcation whereby more than one metaphorical Babylon is referred to in the New Testament. Obviously the literal and historical city of Babylon of which the Old Testament speaks much, has a geographical location, and its reputation as an abode of all that is sinful and abhorrent to God is well documented. But while the passage below from Isaiah 47:1-15 is referring to the literal Babylon, the personification of it and the figurative language used is picked up again in Revelation 17 & 18 to refer to an abstract Babylon that was not only manifest through literal Babylon but is now manifest as all that is chaos and confusion in unregenerate humanity. I am reluctant to budge from the elegant simplicity which uses both the imagery of the woman riding the beast and the great city that reigns over the world  to symbolize one whole confusing mess of chaotic human pleasure seeking and occultic activity in rebellion against God from beginning to end, whether in religion, politics, commerce or whatever. It's all Babylon and it all comes tumbling down. 

Quote

Isa 47:1-15  Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. (2)  Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. (3)  Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. (4)  As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. (5)  Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms. (6)  I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke. (7)  And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. (8)  Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: (9)  But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. (10)  For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. (11)  Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. (12)  Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. (13)  Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. (14)  Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. (15)  Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.