LonerAndy Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, K9Buck said: Here is a Catholic argument for purgatory, with scripture to back up the argument. https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible II Maccabees 12:39-46.... not in the Bible. Matthew 12:32 says nothing about purgatory. Matthew 5:25-26 says nothing about purgatory, and is being taken out of context. Look at the entire chapter, which is Jesus giving instruction on how to live. In the verse directly above that, it's talking about killing people.... are people in purgatory going to need instruction on not killing people, after they are already in purgatory? He even goes on to say that those who say "thou fool" will be in danger of hell fire.... are people already in purgatory going to be in danger of hell fire, even after they already died, and are in purgatory? No, the entire passage is about people alive now. This include Matt 5:25-26. Nothing to do with purgatory. I Corinthians 3:11-15 is about the difference between the fleeting riches of the earth, and the riches of Heaven. Things that are unimportant (the house you owned, the stocks portfolio you have, and so), will all disappear, and the things that matter (serving G-d, and building the kingdom of Heaven) will stay. Nothing in that verse has anything to do with purgatory. The bottom line is, there are dozens of areas in the Bible that talk about locations in the spiritual realm. And in all of them, they are defined. Heaven, Lake of Fire, the Throne room of G-d, and on and on. They are uniquely identifiable places. The Bible does not refer to such locations in these elaborate jigsaw fashion, where you have cut and paste 20 different verses yanked out of context, to make a montage of some super special meaning. The Bible is not a spiritual puzzle book, that only the brilliant Sherlock Holms types of Christianity, can find all the spiritual clues. If there was a purgatory, it would says so directly, and clearly. G-d would not spread some super secret hints, in isolated verses, hidden in over 622K words. Ever have your wife, read between the lines of what you are saying, to put in a meaning you never intended? Let's not do that with the Bible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K9Buck Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 17 minutes ago, LonerAndy said: II Maccabees 12:39-46.... not in the Bible. Matthew 12:32 says nothing about purgatory. Matthew 5:25-26 says nothing about purgatory, and is being taken out of context. Look at the entire chapter, which is Jesus giving instruction on how to live. In the verse directly above that, it's talking about killing people.... are people in purgatory going to need instruction on not killing people, after they are already in purgatory? He even goes on to say that those who say "thou fool" will be in danger of hell fire.... are people already in purgatory going to be in danger of hell fire, even after they already died, and are in purgatory? No, the entire passage is about people alive now. This include Matt 5:25-26. Nothing to do with purgatory. I Corinthians 3:11-15 is about the difference between the fleeting riches of the earth, and the riches of Heaven. Things that are unimportant (the house you owned, the stocks portfolio you have, and so), will all disappear, and the things that matter (serving G-d, and building the kingdom of Heaven) will stay. Nothing in that verse has anything to do with purgatory. The bottom line is, there are dozens of areas in the Bible that talk about locations in the spiritual realm. And in all of them, they are defined. Heaven, Lake of Fire, the Throne room of G-d, and on and on. They are uniquely identifiable places. The Bible does not refer to such locations in these elaborate jigsaw fashion, where you have cut and paste 20 different verses yanked out of context, to make a montage of some super special meaning. The Bible is not a spiritual puzzle book, that only the brilliant Sherlock Holms types of Christianity, can find all the spiritual clues. If there was a purgatory, it would says so directly, and clearly. G-d would not spread some super secret hints, in isolated verses, hidden in over 622K words. Ever have your wife, read between the lines of what you are saying, to put in a meaning you never intended? Let's not do that with the Bible. Thank you. Is it your belief that the saved are instantly purified upon death and that their worldly thoughts are automatically removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,803 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,779 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 No purgatory. If you are saved in this life - you are saved to the uttermost. Not partially saved, not almost saved, not needed to get the "mud" washed off. Once you die - it's too late. "It is appointed to man once to die and then the judgment." - Hebrews 9:27 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, K9Buck said: Thank you. Is it your belief that the saved are instantly purified upon death and that their worldly thoughts are automatically removed? Romans 10:9 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. That is what I believe. I'll leave the complicated concepts to Jesus to explain when I get there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K9Buck Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, LonerAndy said: II Maccabees 12:39-46.... not in the Bible. It's my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes this book. I may be mistaken. I am no theologian nor a biblical scholar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K9Buck Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jayne said: Once you die - it's too late. I believe that's an assumption, not a necessarily known fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K9Buck Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, LonerAndy said: Romans 10:9 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. That is what I believe. I'll leave the complicated concepts to Jesus to explain when I get there. I guess the idea that we lose our free will upon death is something that I haven't found in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 minute ago, K9Buck said: It's my understanding that the Catholic Church recognizes this book. I may be mistaken. I am no theologian nor a biblical scholar. Yes, the Catholic Church recognizes many books that are not part of Biblical cannon. That's exactly why I find that many of the Catholic doctrine, that are found nowhere in Christian Bible, are commonly traced to non-cannon books. Meaning, when you find a doctrine that you can't find any support for in the protestant Bible, you will typical find their origin is with Catholic books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonerAndy Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 693 Content Per Day: 0.42 Reputation: 396 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, K9Buck said: I believe that's an assumption, not a necessarily known fact. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:27 You die... then judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest K9Buck Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, LonerAndy said: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:27 You die... then judgment. I don't dispute that, I simply don't acknowledge that it's a known fact that it's too late to be saved upon our physical death. In other words, I don't know. If you and others know this to be a fact, that's ok with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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