Jump to content
IGNORED

Is purgatory real?


Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  693
  • Content Per Day:  0.43
  • Reputation:   396
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/28/2019
  • Status:  Offline

24 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

 

I guess the idea that we lose our free will upon death is something that I haven't found in the bible.  

 "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

Rev 21:27

It seems clear that no sin will be in Heaven.   Thus it seems impossible that someone can sin in Heaven.

"And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it.  It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there."

Isaiah 35:8   seems to indicate that even if you are a fool, you won't go astray.

So it does seem logical that we will not have a complete free will that we do here in this life, to do evil.

But again, that assumes your name is written in the lamb's book of life.   Which goes back to Romans 10:9.

Edited by LonerAndy
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  693
  • Content Per Day:  0.43
  • Reputation:   396
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/28/2019
  • Status:  Offline

2 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

I don't dispute that, I simply don't acknowledge that it's a known fact that it's too late to be saved upon our physical death.  In other words, I don't know.  If you and others know this to be a fact, that's ok with me.  :) 

Yeah, it's in the Bible, printed in black and white.  Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment "

Revelations has a little more in chapter 20:12

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

So you can see, after we die, we go to judgment.  The books are opened, and the book of life is opened, and we face the consequences of our choices in this world.

It's that simple.  The Bible says it.  If I don't believe those verses, then I would be saying the Bible lies, and if the Bible lies.... then I have no idea why any of us are here right now discussing it.

  • Well Said! 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, LonerAndy said:

Yeah, it's in the Bible, printed in black and white.  Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment "

Revelations has a little more in chapter 20:12

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

So you can see, after we die, we go to judgment.  The books are opened, and the book of life is opened, and we face the consequences of our choices in this world.

It's that simple.  The Bible says it.  If I don't believe those verses, then I would be saying the Bible lies, and if the Bible lies.... then I have no idea why any of us are here right now discussing it.

 

And those who didn't accept Christ in life are automatically cast into Hell, correct?.  In other words, it's not possible that Jesus forgives once one has died, correct?  

Edited by K9Buck
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  693
  • Content Per Day:  0.43
  • Reputation:   396
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/28/2019
  • Status:  Offline

1 minute ago, K9Buck said:

 

And those who didn't accept Christ in life are automatically cast into Hell, correct?.  In other words, it's not possible that Jesus forgives once one has died, correct?  

Well.... what does the text say?

Do you see anywhere, that suggests people are judged based on things they did long after they died?   Or does it say.... it appointed to man.... once to die... then judgment?

You tell me.  What do you read there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LonerAndy said:

Well.... what does the text say?

Do you see anywhere, that suggests people are judged based on things they did long after they died?   Or does it say.... it appointed to man.... once to die... then judgment?

You tell me.  What do you read there?

 

Again, I'm no scholar.  Where is the text that says that non-believers are automatically cast into Hell upon death and that forgiveness after death is impossible?  I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply trying to understand the basis for such beliefs.  Thanks again.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  693
  • Content Per Day:  0.43
  • Reputation:   396
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/28/2019
  • Status:  Offline

Just now, K9Buck said:

@LonerAndy

Is it your belief that, upon death, we no longer have worldly desires?  

I have no idea.  The Bible isn't entirely clear on what Heaven will be like.  Will we have physical needs?  Will we eat?  Will we have jobs?  Will I want a sports car, and drive as fast as I can go on the autobahn?

I'd like to say, no we won't.  Assuming you mean worldly generically.

In Galatians 5:17 it says:

"for the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. "

This somewhat implies, as the verse suggests, that we have a flesh based desire, and a spiritual based desire.

The spiritual is the life given to use by G-d when we are born again.  The flesh, is the evil desire of our human existence.

https://www.perfectingofthesaints.com/new-man-vs-old-man

In Galations 5:19

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

In this passage, again it connects those evil aspects of our nature, to the flesh.   And all those things which are good, it connects to the spirit.

When we die, our flesh dies, but our spirit lives.   So should not all people end up good, because their spirit lives and their flesh dies?   No, because not all people are born of the spirit.

John 3:8   “…so is every one that is born of the Spirit”  Implication... not everyone is born of the spirit.

So again... I don't know for certain how Heaven will work... but the Bible does indicate that when we die, those who are born again will not have those evil desires anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  693
  • Content Per Day:  0.43
  • Reputation:   396
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/28/2019
  • Status:  Offline

11 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

 

Again, I'm no scholar.  Where is the text that says that non-believers are automatically cast into Hell upon death and that forgiveness after death is impossible?  I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply trying to understand the basis for such beliefs.  Thanks again.  

I'm not arguing either.  Just reading the text.  I don't see anything in there about non-believers getting a second chance to live right.   Even that isn't really fair, because every single day of your life, is a chance to make yourself right with G-d.   So I guess what I'm really saying is,  I don't see where a person who snubs their nose at G-d's face their entire life, after 30,000 chances (365 days * 80 years), that after you die, G-d gives everyone a 30,001st chance.

I think it means exactly what it says.  You are appointed as a man... once to die... and then judgment.   I don't see anything about spiting in G-d's face for the average 80 years you have in this world, and then after you die, you get yet another chance.  I don't see that anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, LonerAndy said:

I have no idea.  The Bible isn't entirely clear on what Heaven will be like.  Will we have physical needs?  Will we eat?  Will we have jobs?  Will I want a sports car, and drive as fast as I can go on the autobahn?

I'd like to say, no we won't.  Assuming you mean worldly generically.

In Galatians 5:17 it says:

"for the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. "

This somewhat implies, as the verse suggests, that we have a flesh based desire, and a spiritual based desire.

The spiritual is the life given to use by G-d when we are born again.  The flesh, is the evil desire of our human existence.

https://www.perfectingofthesaints.com/new-man-vs-old-man

In Galations 5:19

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

In this passage, again it connects those evil aspects of our nature, to the flesh.   And all those things which are good, it connects to the spirit.

When we die, our flesh dies, but our spirit lives.   So should not all people end up good, because their spirit lives and their flesh dies?   No, because not all people are born of the spirit.

John 3:8   “…so is every one that is born of the Spirit”  Implication... not everyone is born of the spirit.

So again... I don't know for certain how Heaven will work... but the Bible does indicate that when we die, those who are born again will not have those evil desires anymore.

 

The transition of the physical to the spiritual and how that affects our desires makes sense to me.  In the hereafter, I won't have a craving for a Big Mac, presumably.  :) With that said, I'm not convinced that, upon death, we're suddenly 100% purified and ready to meet God and run loose through Heaven.  I guess it is a mystery to me.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  693
  • Content Per Day:  0.43
  • Reputation:   396
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/28/2019
  • Status:  Offline

Just now, K9Buck said:

 

The transition of the physical to the spiritual and how that affects our desires makes sense to me.  In the hereafter, I won't have a craving for a Big Mac, presumably.  :) With that said, I'm not convinced that, upon death, we're suddenly 100% purified and ready to meet God and run loose through Heaven.  I guess it is a mystery to me.  

It does.  It is a mystery.  I think we will eventually find that Heaven is better than we could imagine here, because it says that G-d will make a new heaven and Earth, and we will have no bodies, and so I'm equally unconvinced that we won't have some desires that we do now.  Possibly we will have physical bodies.  Possibly we will go to amusement parks.   Possibly any number of things.

But we won't have the evil desires of this cursed flesh we do now.  That's why death is part of this world.  The old and sin cursed, has to die.  Then for those born of the spirit, only the good remains.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...