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Is purgatory real?


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16 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Purgatory is not biblical. No, it is not real. 

I agree.  In the ancient Greek mythology, those unworthy of paradise with "the gods" were sent to a place under the earth, where they would suffer to pay for their transgressions.  The ancient Egyptians taught something similar.  If the persons were very good - down there in Hades (Yes, the word Hell comes from the Greek.) then they could be allowed to leave the underworld, to go to live with the gods.  That is where the concept of Purgatory comes from. 

It passed into Catholic doctrine, which began to teach that Christians could buy their loved ones out of Purgatory with money for "Masses" said, and donations to the Church, and offerings for candles lit.  Several of the Apocryphal books were included in the Catholic Bible.  In more than one of those Apocryphal books, are descriptions of or references to, an intermediate temporary place between Heaven and Hell. 

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Ok, so a Christian could be enjoying himself in the act of adultery at a house of ill repute, die of a heart attack and, moments later, be face-to-face in Heaven with God himself, correct?  One moment the Christian is having extra-marital sex with a prostitute and the next he's staring God in the face, right?  

I'm not sure I buy it but, if you do, that's ok with me.  :) 

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5 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

 

I'm confident that there are people who die without ever hearing the word of Christ.  My guess is that, upon their death, they are indeed judged and offered the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus as their savior, at which point they are saved, assuming that they accept Jesus.  However, this is contrary to the claim that people MUST accept Jesus BEFORE their physical death in order to be saved.  Do you agree with what I have written here?    

Daniel 12:1-3 describes the great resurrection at the Glorious Return of Messiah.  Some are raised to everlasting life.  Those are the "saved".  Others are raised to shame and everlasting condemnation.  Those are the ones set in rebellion.  They will be judged and then executed on that day, as the world is "burned up" (2Peter 3:7, 10-13).

I believe that all those who lived and died in ignorance of GOD will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, and will then be taught the ways of the LORD.  Then they will have to choose.  Revelation 20:5-6 talks about a group called simply "the rest of the dead".  It's not that they will all be saved.  Many of them will die at the Battle of Gog/Magog as they try to overthrow the reign of Christ.  But at least they will be allowed to choose. 

In "the rest" I include all who died in childhood, to young to understand or choose, and also those with mental disabilities such that they could not understand.  They will "live again" at the 8th millennium, when the earth is all healed and restored.  They will grow up in a wonderful world governed by Jesus. 

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15 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

 

I'm confident that there are people who die without ever hearing the word of Christ.  My guess is that, upon their death, they are indeed judged and offered the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus as their savior, at which point they are saved, assuming that they accept Jesus.  However, this is contrary to the claim that people MUST accept Jesus BEFORE their physical death in order to be saved.  Do you agree with what I have written here?    

So I was wondering if you were referring to that.

There are two things that might help you out.   Both are not explicitly clear in the Bible, but there is some concepts that support them.

First is what we call "The age of accountability".    Now understand, this is simply a phrase we use to describe something we see in the Bible.  If you do a search, you are not going to find it spelled out.  And the word "age" isn't a specific year, but rather some point in time, where you are understand right and wrong and are held accountable for your actions.

Most all nations have this concept in law.   For example, a 10-year-old who broke another child's arm, isn't going to prison likely, because they are so young, they don't understand the ramifications of their actions.   Similarly, we don't send people who have mental illness, to prison, like we would a normal person.

When you read 2 Sam 12:22, this is where King David is fasting, and the child dies.  David then says that the Child will not return to him, but he will return to the child.  Indicating that he's going be with that child in heaven.

So that's one aspect.  Those who do not reach age of accountability, will likely be saved because they never had a chance to make a choice either way.

There is one other way, and I want to be super careful here.    Understand, this is just my best understanding.  I'm not G-d obviously, and I certainly didn't write this book.   But there is perhaps one other way... and that I believe is when you worship G-d, without knowing exactly who you are worshipping.    Now I want to be clear... this is not explicitly defined theology, and I'm not going to argue it with anyone, because I could be entirely wrong on this.

In Acts 17:23, Paul is in a pagan city, and finds an alter to the "unknown god".  Paul then explains who this unknown G-d is.

In Romans 2:14 we believe Paul wrote this passage that says:

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So what he is saying is that the pagan people of this world (again pagan just meaning non-christian), who do not know the law... G-d is going to judge them based on their own standards.   They who do not know the law, who do by nature what the law requires, are a law to themselves.   Their conflicting thoughts accuse them...... or excuse them.... on that day.

That seems to indicate that it is somehow possible that in a situation where someone is full devoted to be right before G-d, that even if they never know the name Jesus, that perhaps they are saved.

Again, this isn't salvation after Death, but this is being saved in your ignorance.

And if I can just share a quick story... I never used to believe thus for most of my life.  What made me consider it, was a story from a missions trip.

So a group of people went on a missions trip to China.   My understanding is that a Chinese American, who converted to Christianity, went on this missions trip.   After they were going around to the the Christian churches, and doing their mission stuff, they were touring the Chinese city they were in.   This Chinese American missionary saw a man sitting on a park bench.  In his own words he just felt compelled to speak with the man.  After sitting and talking with him, and telling him of Jesus, the Chinese man smiled and said the following as best I remember:

"I've been following him for almost my whole life, and I never knew his name".

That story, caused me to consider that possibly even among the people who have never heard the name Jesus, that there are still those who give their lives to G-d, and follow him as best they know how.

Again, I don't know anything for sure.  But I know this... G-d is fair.  G-d is just.  The G-d I know doesn't just toss people into hell.   He saves every single person he can.   Every person that is willing, will be saved.

Hope that helps.

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49 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

Ok, so a Christian could be enjoying himself in the act of adultery at a house of ill repute, die of a heart attack and, moments later, be face-to-face in Heaven with God himself, correct?  One moment the Christian is having extra-marital sex with a prostitute and the next he's staring God in the face, right?  

I'm not sure I buy it but, if you do, that's ok with me.  :) 

Two answers...

One, is anything too hard for G-d?   Of course he can save even the most evil of people, if they repent.

Two, being saved requires repentance.  If you don't repent, then you are not saved.  It would be difficult for me to image that a Christian would actually engage in Adultery.   Meaning, if they are sleeping with someone who isn't their wife, and they are not repenting of it....    maybe they are not really Christians?

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52 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

In "the rest" I include all who died in childhood, to young to understand or choose, and also those with mental disabilities such that they could not understand.  They will "live again" at the 8th millennium, when the earth is all healed and restored.  They will grow up in a wonderful world governed by Jesus. 

In other words, one who dies as a child lucks out because they get a free pass to paradise, right?  

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1 hour ago, LonerAndy said:

So I was wondering if you were referring to that.

There are two things that might help you out.   Both are not explicitly clear in the Bible, but there is some concepts that support them.

First is what we call "The age of accountability".    Now understand, this is simply a phrase we use to describe something we see in the Bible.  If you do a search, you are not going to find it spelled out.  And the word "age" isn't a specific year, but rather some point in time, where you are understand right and wrong and are held accountable for your actions.

Most all nations have this concept in law.   For example, a 10-year-old who broke another child's arm, isn't going to prison likely, because they are so young, they don't understand the ramifications of their actions.   Similarly, we don't send people who have mental illness, to prison, like we would a normal person.

When you read 2 Sam 12:22, this is where King David is fasting, and the child dies.  David then says that the Child will not return to him, but he will return to the child.  Indicating that he's going be with that child in heaven.

So that's one aspect.  Those who do not reach age of accountability, will likely be saved because they never had a chance to make a choice either way.

There is one other way, and I want to be super careful here.    Understand, this is just my best understanding.  I'm not G-d obviously, and I certainly didn't write this book.   But there is perhaps one other way... and that I believe is when you worship G-d, without knowing exactly who you are worshipping.    Now I want to be clear... this is not explicitly defined theology, and I'm not going to argue it with anyone, because I could be entirely wrong on this.

In Acts 17:23, Paul is in a pagan city, and finds an alter to the "unknown god".  Paul then explains who this unknown G-d is.

In Romans 2:14 we believe Paul wrote this passage that says:

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So what he is saying is that the pagan people of this world (again pagan just meaning non-christian), who do not know the law... G-d is going to judge them based on their own standards.   They who do not know the law, who do by nature what the law requires, are a law to themselves.   Their conflicting thoughts accuse them...... or excuse them.... on that day.

That seems to indicate that it is somehow possible that in a situation where someone is full devoted to be right before G-d, that even if they never know the name Jesus, that perhaps they are saved.

Again, this isn't salvation after Death, but this is being saved in your ignorance.

And if I can just share a quick story... I never used to believe thus for most of my life.  What made me consider it, was a story from a missions trip.

So a group of people went on a missions trip to China.   My understanding is that a Chinese American, who converted to Christianity, went on this missions trip.   After they were going around to the the Christian churches, and doing their mission stuff, they were touring the Chinese city they were in.   This Chinese American missionary saw a man sitting on a park bench.  In his own words he just felt compelled to speak with the man.  After sitting and talking with him, and telling him of Jesus, the Chinese man smiled and said the following as best I remember:

"I've been following him for almost my whole life, and I never knew his name".

That story, caused me to consider that possibly even among the people who have never heard the name Jesus, that there are still those who give their lives to G-d, and follow him as best they know how.

Again, I don't know anything for sure.  But I know this... G-d is fair.  G-d is just.  The G-d I know doesn't just toss people into hell.   He saves every single person he can.   Every person that is willing, will be saved.

Hope that helps.

 

Excellently said.  Thanks!  

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Your school will teach that the holy see's and the popes' teach that the traditions such a purgatory are to believed rather than the Bible.  The Bible does not teach purgatory, only the traditions of men teach it.  The traditions are like the game of gossip.  One person whispers something to another till you go around the circle and find that what the last person says doesn't resemble what the first person said.  So by the time the popes interpret what was said the first time it becomes a lie.  It is like what the Supreme Court has done to the constitution.  Their interpretations have twisted the original meaning.  The Scriptures that the Holy See use to back up their claims also have twisted the original truth of Scripture.  So you are fighting a losing battle.  They don't believe the simple truth of Scripture so you have no common ground as a basis for debate.  They will just tell you to believe their dogma and that only the Catholic church can interpret or understand Scripture.  

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59 minutes ago, LonerAndy said:

Two answers...

One, is anything too hard for G-d?   Of course he can save even the most evil of people, if they repent.

Two, being saved requires repentance.  If you don't repent, then you are not saved.  It would be difficult for me to image that a Christian would actually engage in Adultery.   Meaning, if they are sleeping with someone who isn't their wife, and they are not repenting of it....    maybe they are not really Christians?

A Christian who sins might not be directly rejecting Christ but is sinning as a result of their own weakness.  For instance, an alcoholic might want to quit but, due to their own weakness, is unable.  I believe they will still be saved.  If not, then I have to presume that nobody is saved because there is no perfect Christian outside of Christ himself.  

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1 hour ago, K9Buck said:

Ok, so a Christian could be enjoying himself in the act of adultery at a house of ill repute, die of a heart attack and, moments later, be face-to-face in Heaven with God himself, correct?  One moment the Christian is having extra-marital sex with a prostitute and the next he's staring God in the face, right?  

I'm not sure I buy it but, if you do, that's ok with me.  :) 

Only those who are born again, in whom Christ lives, will go immediately to be in God's presence. The blood of Jesus has cleansed them and by it  the are allowed int0 God's presence.  They have been washed by the word of God.  Their good works will be judged at the Bema Seat of God because their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.  Those whose names are not in the Book of Life won't be resurrected till the end and will be judged according to their works at the Great White Throne judgement.  There every knee will be forced to bow and every tongue will be forced to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  That won't avail them heaven, though.  They are forced to confess these things against their will because they hate Jesus.  All their sins will be revealed to everyone when they say they should not go to hell because they are just as good as the next guy.  The truth will be revealed as well as al their secret sins.  There are no second chances.  

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