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Is purgatory real?


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3 minutes ago, Willa said:

Only those who are born again, in whom Christ lives, will go immediately to be in God's presence. The blood of Jesus has cleansed them and by it  the are allowed int0 God's presence.  They have been washed by the word of God.  Their good works will be judged at the Bema Seat of God because their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.  Those whose names are not in the Book of Life won't be resurrected till the end and will be judged according to their works at the Great White Throne judgement.  There every knee will be forced to bow and every tongue will be forced to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  That won't avail them heaven, though.  They are forced to confess these things against their will because they hate Jesus.  All their sins will be revealed to everyone when they say they should not go to hell because they are just as good as the next guy.  The truth will be revealed as well as al their secret sins.  There are no second chances.  

 

Thank you for your response and, please forgive me for being dense :), but I'm not sure that your response answered my question.  

The Christian who dies while engaged in adultery will be judged, saved and then be in the presence of God, correct?

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2 hours ago, K9Buck said:

In other words, one who dies as a child lucks out because they get a free pass to paradise, right?  

Lucks out is an odd thing to say to someone who dies.  But I suppose you could say that.

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2 hours ago, K9Buck said:

A Christian who sins might not be directly rejecting Christ but is sinning as a result of their own weakness.  For instance, an alcoholic might want to quit but, due to their own weakness, is unable.  I believe they will still be saved.  If not, then I have to presume that nobody is saved because there is no perfect Christian outside of Christ himself.  

There is a difference between one who falls down, because they have a bad food, and one who falls down because they are constantly running everywhere and ignores the "don't run near the pool" sign.

I assume you understand the difference.    This is why police act differently if you go too fast on a 500 mile long road in the desert where there has only been one sign in the past 100 miles, verses someone speeding next to a school, where there are fifteen signs all saying slow down, some with lights flashing, signs that say crosswalk here, and so on.

You get the idea.    I don't know how G-d will handle that in Heaven.  Don't know.   But I know that he will be fair.

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15 minutes ago, LonerAndy said:

I know that he will be fair.

I think so too.  I don't believe that God rejects his children.  

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I have removed the post that was addressed to you a few minutes ago, I will be putting it back up in a bit.  I reposted a reply to another person that was also making a case in favor of purgatory.

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1 minute ago, appy said:

I have removed the post that was addressed to you a few minutes ago, I will be putting it back up in a bit.  I reposted a reply to another person that was also making a case in favor of purgatory.

Ok.  Please feel at liberty to remove my response as well.  Thanks.  

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I can not remove your post, as I am not a forum moderator.  I moderate the chatroom when I am there.

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6 hours ago, K9Buck said:

I'm confident that there are people who die without ever hearing the word of Christ.  My guess is that, upon their death, they are indeed judged and offered the opportunity to repent and accept Jesus as their savior, at which point they are saved, assuming that they accept Jesus.  However, this is contrary to the claim that people MUST accept Jesus BEFORE their physical death in order to be saved.  Do you agree with what I have written here?    

Do realize that unbelievers reject the idea of a Creator who demands morality from His creation. They take pride in what they consider good about themselves. And so, don't think they are in need of a Savior or having their sins forgiven. No human can say they, themselves or another person is basically good, so sins should be overlooked.  Sin is NOT determined by human measurements of goodness, but on God's standard of holiness.

Purgatory and universalism sounds appealing to unbelievers because it doesn't require their lives to change. They fight against believing and trusting in a Savior to save them, because they know that if they do believe; it will change their way of living.  The roman catholic church through this doctrine is pretty much saying so to speak. “Live as you like no need to repent, you'll go to heaven anyway". 

We can't truly obtain Salvation without sincerely turning from our sins. There will be no unrighteousness in heaven

In Mark 1: 15 Jesus tells us to repent and believe the good news. That means to change your mind about sin and turn to God. If God is going to eventually save people, why does the bible repeatedly, over and over tell us to turn from a sinful lifestyle now while we are alive? It is reckless and foolish to think one can turn to God at the last minute or wait till after death. If a person is unwilling to turn from a sinful life now, what reason would he/she have later? A person has no way of knowing if he or she will even have the opportunity to do so at a later time. An unexpected life threatening event such as a heart attack, or car accident can happen with no warning at all and the person has lost the opportunity.

If God is going to eventually save everyone why does Jesus say....

Matthew 25: 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25 : 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

Doesn't sound like a person will eventually be saved if they are sent to an everlasting punishment. 

 

 

 

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@appy

I'm not sure how your response is relevant to my statement that you quoted.  I was referring to people, who have never heard the teachings of Christ, dying, being judged, meeting Christ (I presume) and then accepting Christ as their savior, presumably.  

 

 

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33 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

@appy

I'm not sure how your response is relevant to my statement that you quoted.  I was referring to people, who have never heard the teachings of Christ, dying, being judged, meeting Christ (I presume) and then accepting Christ as their savior, presumably. 

They will be judged on what they do know, NOT on what they do not know. What those people you are speaking of did know, is that there is a living God. God made this fact known to them by what men could see around them, meaning all of creation. But those who refused to acknowledge him are lost, based on this fact. NOT on the fact that they didn't get to hear the gospel.

You may not like it, but it is what it is. There is no second chance for them to change their minds after death. They will be judged because even though they didn't know about Jesus, they did know about God's presence, and did have a moral code that they knew they were breaking; but chose to exchange what they knew to be the truth, for a lie. The bible says all are without excuse, NOT because they didn't hear the gospel, but because they had sinned. The bible says All have sinned. And it is sin that separates us from God. Not ignorance.

Romans 1 : 18 - 23 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 2:12 - 15 ( NIV) elaborates on this further

 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.  For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.  (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.  They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

A paraphrase of the same verses from Roman's 2 (LB )
 

He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong. God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them. And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws but don’t obey them. They know what is right but don’t do it. After all, salvation is not given to those who know what to do, unless they do it.  The day will surely come when at God’s command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives;

 

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