Is purgatory real?

[Resurrection Priest]

10 hours ago, K9Buck said:

It's probably due to my limited understanding, but I find some scripture to be seemingly contradictory.  There's another passage that says something to the effect that "To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord".  And then there's Jesus telling the man on the cross that he would be in Heaven that day with Jesus.  Of course, I suppose Jesus has the authority to make an exception. 

I am repeating part of my post from yesterday.

Lots of folks quote Paul in  2 Corinthians 12:2,3.    "Absent from the body, present with the LORD".  Paul here was speaking of his own condition while in vision.  I will leave you to look up that one.

The other passage of Paul is 2 Corinthians 5:1-8.  In this passage Paul describes THREE states. 

1. “earthy house” - “this tent” - “in this we groan” - “at home in the body” - “absent from the Lord”.    So this is the physical body we all go through life in. 

2.  “a building from God” - “a house eternal in the heavens” - “further clothed” - “clothed with our habitation from heaven” - “mortality swallowed up of life” -
“absent from the [physical] body” - “present with the Lord”.  This is the "spiritual body" (1Cor 15:44) those "in Christ" will receive at the Glorious Return, when we are "changed" at the resurrection. 

3.  “being clothed we shall not be found naked” - “unclothed”  

To be without either body - the physical one or the spiritual one  - is to be dead (naked), but completely remembered by GOD who will resurrect. 

[Resurrection Priest]

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

In the "hell" Jesus spoke of here, BOTH soul and body will be destroyed.  

But folks who believe in a present place called "Hell", believe that only the spirit (or soul) goes to Hell - NOT the "body".   We bury the "body" and it decays away. 

If the "Hell" Jesus is speaking of is the place or event where BOTH the souls and bodies of the rebellious will finally be destroyed, then it cannot be the one most believe in. 

The word for "hell" in this verse is the Greek word "Gehenna" (Strong's #1067).  It was a burning garbage dump, just south of Jerusalem.  The fires were kept burning, and of course the worms kept eating.  It was originally the valley of Hinnom, where the wicked kings of Judah had worshiped idols and offered human child sacrifices (Jer 7:31-33).  Jeremiah the prophet said the land was cursed.  So of course, no one wanted to build on that land after Judah was allowed to return from Babylon.  They turned it into a garbage dump.  They threw dead animals in there, and even the bodies of executed criminals.  But they NEVER threw live people in there!

At the end of this age, this earth will be "burned up" by the "fire" of God.  Bible does say, "Our God is a consuming fire."  Bible does describe how many will be "consumed by the glory of God" - the "fire".   That "fire" doesn't go out, it is "eternal fire" because that "fire" is God Himself.  Satan is turning this earth into a garbage dump.  By the end of this age, with the final nuclear wars, the trumpet judgments, and the final plagues - it WILL BE a garbage dump - just like Gehenna. 

So what was Jesus saying?   He was saying that if we don't go with Him, we end up as garbage - completely destroyed, "body and soul". 

 

The "ungodly" are not punished til the end of the age - and judgment day.  Hell of NOT going on now.

2 Peter 3:7  “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

John 15:6  "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they [the angels] gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”
 
        NOTE: The fire appears to be burning what is already dead.  This agrees with the image of Isaiah 66:24, and Jesus’ prophecy in Mark 9:45-46.  The fire will consume the corpses.  

    Matthew 13:49-50  “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”  (Remember the wicked are resurrected to face judgment. Daniel 12:1-2)

    Matthew 13:41-42  “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire.

 

Here's a couple more where Jesus spoke of the "whole body" being "cast into Gehenna". 

    Matthew 5:29  “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell [gehenna].”  (See also Matt. 18:9 and Mark 9:47.)

    Matthew 5:30  “. . . it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell [gehenna].”
    (See also Mark 9:43-44.)

        NOTE: Essentially Jesus is saying that even the loss of an eye or the right hand, is preferable to the loss of eternal life.  We note especially that the physical body of the lost person will be cast into Gehenna as a “whole body,” with two hands, two feet, and two eyes - not as a disembodied spirit.  Even the Greeks did not believe that the physical body went to “Hades.”

 

[JoeMo]

On 1/24/2020 at 1:15 AM, K9Buck said:

And then there's Jesus telling the man on the cross that he would be in Heaven that day with Jesus.  Of course, I suppose Jesus has the authority to make an exception. 

The exact verse in Luke 23:43 reads:

“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

In the Bible manuscripts, there was no punctuation. Punctuation was added by the translators.  If one just moves the comma one word to the left, the bverse reads:

“Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Changes the entire tenor of the verse. Moving the comma makes the statement say "I'm telling you right now, ultimately you will be with me in paradise."

[Asaph]

I haven't read every post here yet. I want to point to what is known as Abraham's bosom. The Paradise Jesus spoke of, Was it heaven? 

I look at the Parable of the rich man and the beggar. When the beggar dies he goes to Abraham's side. There is a great gulf between this paradise and hell.  The rich man is able to see them and speak to Abraham. I believe this is the place where the righteous dead went to await Jesus to come and preach to them in prison, they were limited to that place, so it was a type of prison. Luke 16:19.

Jesus died and visited those who were in paradise, they were taught the true way and when he rose again, he took them with him into heaven. Saying in Psalm 68:18 He led captivity captive into heaven. Eph. 4:7-10

 

 

[Jostler]

3 minutes ago, Asaph said:

I haven't read every post here yet. I want to point to what is known as Abraham's bosom. The Paradise Jesus spoke of, Was it heaven? 

I look at the Parable of the rich man and the beggar. When the beggar dies he goes to Abraham's side. There is a great gulf between this paradise and hell.  The rich man is able to see them and speak to Abraham. I believe this is the place where the righteous dead went to await Jesus to come and preach to them in prison, they were limited to that place, so it was a type of prison. Luke 16:19.

Jesus died and visited those who were in paradise, they were taught the true way and when he rose again, he took them with him into heaven. Saying in Psalm 68:18 He led captivity captive into heaven. Eph. 4:7-10

 

 

I also question whether "paradise" is synonymous with heaven.  I'm also not sure we can call the story of Lazarus a parable.  It seems more likely to me that in that case, He was portraying a real event, and a real conversation that really took place in Hades.  In every other case I've examined that we know are parables, He never gave anyone a name.  It's always something more like "a certain man..." and is obviously use of an earthly example/principle (something we can comprehend from the natural...the "seen")  used to highlight and explain something spiritual (unseen and unseeable with natural senses).

I tend to think His recital of Lazarus' story is a legitimate and detailed peek into the nature of Hades, which we know He was sent to for three days of torment...paying the death price for sin God's justice required. 

[Guest K9Buck]

14 minutes ago, Jostler said:

I tend to think His recital of Lazarus' story is a legitimate and detailed peek into the nature of Hades, which we know He was sent to for three days of torment...paying the death price for sin God's justice required. 

Lazarus went to Hades for 3 days?

[Jostler]

1 minute ago, K9Buck said:

Lazarus went to Hades for 3 days?

No sir, Jesus did...as soon as He departed from His flesh body on that cross....

[Guest K9Buck]

18 minutes ago, Jostler said:

He was sent to for three days of torment...

Jesus was tormented in Hades?

[Jostler]

10 minutes ago, K9Buck said:

Jesus was tormented in Hades?

Yes.  He was the sacrifice that satisfied God's demand for justice.  The wages of sin is death.  Jesus endured, fully experienced both "deaths" the Bible speaks of.  Separation from physical existence in a physical body, as well as utter and complete separation from Father.  IN HIM, Father's justice was fully satisfied.  So that in Him, Father could show us mercy.  He paid the full price required for our sakes. 

We are born dead.  Born into the second death....utter separation from Father, due to the fact of Adam's first sin.  We were totally unable to pay the price justice demanded, because we were dead already.  Had no "life" to give that could satisfy justice.  So, Father's love, and desire to have us back, was so great He asked His own Son to pay it for us.   And He, out of His own love for us and for Father, agreed to do it.  To die, so that we might live.
 

Quote

Mat 12:40

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Jostler

[Guest K9Buck]

2 minutes ago, Jostler said:

Yes.  He was the sacrifice that satisfied God's demand for justice.  The wages of sin is death.  Jesus endured, fully experienced both "deaths" the Bible speaks of.  Separation from physical existence in a physical body, as well as utter and complete separation from Father.  IN HIM, Father's justice was fully satisfied.  So that in Him, Father could show us mercy.  He paid the full price required for our sakes. 

We are born dead.  Born into the second death....utter separation from Father, due to the fact of Adam's first sin.  We were totally unable to pay the price justice demanded, because we were dead already.  Had no "life" to give that could satisfy justice.  So, Father's love, and desire to have us back, was so great He asked His own Son to pay it for us.   And He, out of His own love for us and for Father, agreed to do it.  To die, so that we might live.
 

 

I did not know that.  Thanks for sharing.  For my own future reference, do you by chance recall the verse?  Thanks again.