Am I The Only One Who Does Not Believe This Very Popular Church Teaching?

[ReneeIW]

I was listening to a sermon early this morning and the pastor said that we are all capable of committing the same heinous and violent acts as serial killers and others if given the right circumstances, and that only a self-righteous person believes  otherwise.

I’ve heard this statement many times over the years and used to believe it, but now I do not. While we are all born with a sinful nature, it takes a certain type of personality to commit certain crimes. I can say unequivocally that I would not murder thirty people and hide them in my basement as one serial killer did. All glory goes to God for keeping me from those acts, but I don’t think it’s self righteous to say I am not capable of certain acts. I’m simply acknowledging that by the grace of God, I am not capable of doing certain things.

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

I was listening to a sermon early this morning and the pastor said that we are all capable of committing the same heinous and violent acts as serial killers and others if given the right circumstances, and that only a self-righteous person believes  otherwise.

I’ve heard this statement many times over the years and used to believe it, but now I do not. While we are all born with a sinful nature, it takes a certain type of personality to commit certain crimes. I can say unequivocally that I would not murder thirty people and hide them in my basement as one serial killer did. All glory goes to God for keeping me from those acts, but I don’t think it’s self righteous to say I am not capable of certain acts. I’m simply acknowledging that by the grace of God, I am not capable of doing certain things.

I do not believe that everyone is capable of being a serial killer. That would be the traits and behavior of a psychopath.

[Jostler]

I think this is one where I'd have to split hairs.  My understanding is that the sinful, fallen nature we inherited from Adam is so depraved it LITERALLY made us "sons of satan".  We were born into that condition and prior to the new birth I do believe given the right circumstances, in that condition,  any of us is capable of embracing any degree of evil.

But thank God for the blood...a new birth into a new family and a new nature.  There truly are sins I would die before I would commit...or even contemplate.  I simply couldn't...wouldn't.  I wish i could get that attitude about ALL sins working in my life.  And honestly, i believe that is what sanctification is all about.   In Him, by His power, it is possible and He is very intent on leading us step by step toward that very goal....transformation into a perfect reflection of HIS (sinless) image.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Jostler

[ReneeIW]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I do not believe that everyone is capable of being a serial killer. That would be the traits and behavior of a psychopath.

I agree. This particular pastor used John Wayne Gacy as an example and said we are all capable of that. He was quoting from another famous pastor who also taught that, but I can’t remember the name. I really don’t like these types of teachings. They confuse believers and non-believers and can cause us to excuse  certain types of behaviors out of fear of being labeled self-righteous or judging.

[missmuffet]

3 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

I agree. This particular pastor used John Wayne Gacy as an example and said we are all capable of that. He was quoting from another famous pastor who also taught that, but I can’t remember the name. I really don’t like these types of teachings. They confuse believers and non-believers and can cause us to excuse  certain types of behaviors out of fear of being labeled self-righteous or judging.

There is a lot of false teaching out there so that does not surprise me. These false teachers will be judged very harshly. 

[Jayne]

We are capable of terrible sins.  And unless we stay close to God, we may commit them.

But things like serial killers and serial child molesters.  Many of these people, like missmuffet said have antisocial personality disorders as well as sinful natures.  That combination leads to gruesome acts.

John Wayne Gacy?  No way.  That took a mental disorder, demonic possession, and grievous sinful desires.

[ReneeIW]

3 minutes ago, Jostler said:

I do believe given the right circumstances, in that condition,  any of us is capable of embracing any degree of evil.

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. This is a poor example but I just reread Serpcio ,about the New York City cop who refused to take money. He was in the same circumstances as everyone else. Had the same income, took the same risks, had similar  personalities as his colleagues(cops share certain personality traits). But he refused to take money  under any circumstances. 

[Not me]

24 minutes ago, Jostler said:

I think this is one where I'd have to split hairs.  My understanding is that the sinful, fallen nature we inherited from Adam is so depraved it LITERALLY made us "sons of satan".  We were born into that condition and prior to the new birth I do believe given the right circumstances, in that condition,  any of us is capable of embracing any degree of evil.

But thank God for the blood...a new birth into a new family and a new nature.  There truly are sins I would die before I would commit...or even contemplate.  I simply couldn't...wouldn't.  I wish i could get that attitude about ALL sins working in my life.  And honestly, i believe that is what sanctification is all about.   In Him, by His power, it is possible and He is very intent on leading us step by step toward that very goal....transformation into a perfect reflection of HIS (sinless) image.

Well said!

Don’t think your splitting hairs, but speaking the truth...  

In Him, Not me 

[other one]

35 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. This is a poor example but I just reread Serpcio ,about the New York City cop who refused to take money. He was in the same circumstances as everyone else. Had the same income, took the same risks, had similar  personalities as his colleagues(cops share certain personality traits). But he refused to take money  under any circumstances. 

I think the problem is using the term "any circumstances"     It's really hard for us to fathom any or all circumstances...   sometimes circumstances change who we are.

Finding Jesus certainly did for me...   I can't fathom myself going back to my old self, but I know people who have....   and I was totally shocked when it happened.   My motto has always been since I met Jesus is,  "But for the grace of God, there go I."          Could I go back to my old self or worse since I don't believe I've ever killed anyone??????   Without the help of God I truthfully can not say no.    Could I turn my back on God.....    I can't fathom that however I know people who have....    One of the curses of being over 70 is that we have seen and second hand experienced things that we didn't think possible....

That's why I trust God.....   not that I am not capable of evil, but he's not capable of letting me do so as long as he is my God.

[Jostler]

On 1/20/2020 at 10:53 AM, ReneeIW said:

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. This is a poor example but I just reread Serpcio ,about the New York City cop who refused to take money. He was in the same circumstances as everyone else. Had the same income, took the same risks, had similar  personalities as his colleagues(cops share certain personality traits). But he refused to take money  under any circumstances. 

I don't know why or how Serpico managed to escape the temptation so many others succumbed to....or possibly enthusiastically embraced.  I have no idea if he was born again or not either.

All i can do is go by my best understanding of what the Bible tells us about sin and my own experience of it.  We tend to think of this sin or that as being worse than other sins...we categorize and prioritize, but in the last analysis God does not.

Quote

Jas 2:10

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

If we compare ourselves among ourselves (which the Bible clearly says is a departure from Wisdom) we really can see varying degrees of brokenness.  But if we compare ourselves to Him....to His righteous standard...which is perfection in holiness.....every single one of us has fallen short.  Compared to Him we were all unspeakably broken....with no remedy in our power.  We were dead in our trespasses and sins and death is the price....we were already dead!  Had no "life" to give to satisfy the just condemnation pronounced on sin.

Quote

Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Israel was given a list of ten "don'ts"  that were righteous and good....perfect guides to how we relate to God and to each other.   Neither they nor we could keep them.  Then Jesus came along, shed His blood and purchased for us the right to have our nature transformed, our persons (spirits) made one with the Holy Spirit becoming sons of God instead of sons of satan.   The Law was not set aside, but FILLLED UP...and replaced by a HIGHER standard.  But with that came two profound laws (law of liberty) summed up in two major "do this!" commandments.  Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and spirit, and love your neighbor as yourself.  In these the ten don'ts  will NEVER be violated....they didn't cease to exist....they were filled up....with an even higher standard of conduct.

The Law said "don't you dare take the life of a human by your own will and power"  ... "don't you be sleeping with your neighbor's wife"......

But Jesus said:

Quote

Mat 5:27-28

¶

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

 

“But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

Under the old covenant i was considered righteous before the Court if I didn't DO it....in the New Covenant I'm not even allowed to THINK IT.  I do not think temptation is the same as sinning.  Jesus was tempted in ALL points we are, yet without sin.  So if an adulterous thought flashes through my mind....that might not have even come from me.  But the minute I take that thought, start to meditate on it, let my imagination run with it....the Court has to judge me an adulterer.  Jesus did not set aside the Law....He filled it up with a higher standard that will never violate the Law. 

 

He was pre-figuring the New Covenant and He specifically pointed out the same thing about "thou shalt not murder"

Quote

Mat 5:21-22

¶

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’

 

“But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

The Law said i can't shed any person's blood unrighteously......but Jesus said "You can't even call your brother an idiot.  If  you do you're guilty of murder before the Court"

I don't think i need to explain to anyone the adulterous aspects of a teenage boy's mind.  By Jesus higher standard, I didn't make it to junior highschool without becoming an adulterous murderer in the eyes of the Court.  The Old Law addressed ACTIONS.....the New Law addresses the heart, where all sin originates.

Yes, from our perspective, actually committing adultery is worse than meditating on it.   Acting on the impulse defiles many....another person, another family....husband, children...a holy union God established is defiled and likely broken.  If I meditate on it, I am defiled.....there is less "fallout" but in Heaven's eyes....there is no difference.

Sorry if I drifted off track with that little screed....i guess the bottom line for me is recognizing I WAS capable of what heaven calls murder...and in serial fashion. Other kids hated me and I hated them.   And that was AFTER I was born again.  I was saved at 8.

lol...this is so fundamental to a persistent argument so prevalent on this forum ...that has brothers and sisters in the Lord MURDERING each other DAILY.....i got  a bit off topic

 

I'll just say, i do understand and fully agree with your reservation as you expressed it in your first post.  Telling born again people we have to excuse grievous sin instead of repenting and restoring is utterly disgusting to me, and not Biblical.  And I don't believe any true Christian is capable of shedding the blood of multiple people for fun...or serially abusing children (or adults for that matter) for perverted gratification.   I think we WERE capable of that before we accept His freely offered gift of grace.  We had more of an excuse (sin nature) under the Law than we do now. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Jostler