Neighbor Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 21, 2020 This Very Popular Church Teaching? Hi, I do not hear this being taught. I do not therefore find it to be a popular nor a very popular teaching. That someone may have said such a thing and is on radio does not make it a prevalent teaching, nor even accurate. There must be scriptures presented supporting such a claim in order for it to be bothered with, otherwise it is just someone's attempt to get attention for themself to promote a cause, perhaps the disparagement of Christ's church in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahmedcrow Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 107 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 56 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Neighbor said: This Very Popular Church Teaching? Hi, I do not hear this being taught. I do not therefore find it to be a popular nor a very popular teaching. That someone may have said such a thing and is on radio does not make it a prevalent teaching, nor even accurate. There must be scriptures presented supporting such a claim in order for it to be bothered with, otherwise it is just someone's attempt to get attention for themself to promote a cause, perhaps the disparagement of Christ's church in general. Good opinion and it's normal one, but what about atheists who use the same logic, they can say that they're although rejecting Jesus righteous people. It's not traditional teaching but it's good point, how world will look like without Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahmedcrow Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 107 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 56 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/19/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Margo1945 said: we all sin occasionally and must repent when we do .. the gravity of our sins would depend upon varying circumstances in our lives and how we are dealing with them .. we cannot always control what comes into our lives but we can control how we choose to deal with such and we do not always make the best choices in such .. if we stay entirely and only in a Spirit life, we will not sin but if we succumb to stepping back into a fleshly life temporarily or permanently, we shall give into sin .. so, the key, I guess, is to remain in the Spirit life only with the help of the Holy Spirit and God's bountiful graces .. the choice, of course, is ours as are the consequences if we repent or choose not to repent .. aka returning to God and to His Will Good, and yes, Jesus is that gate of spiritual life, he's our connection with heavenly kingdom which has the opposite nature to world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 950 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,532 Content Per Day: 5.02 Reputation: 9,027 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, ahmedcrow said: ... how ( would the) world will look like without Jesus? It would not exist. It is a creation of Jesus by Jesus. Neither Jesus existence nor His creation's existence depend on (any) man's opinion of Him, nor of His creation. If man does not proclaim Him (Jesus) Lord then He can and will make the rocks cry out that He is Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReneeIW Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 780 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Jostler said: holiness.....every single one of us has fallen short. Compared to Him we were all unspeakably broken I agree with this. 22 hours ago, Jostler said: But the minute I take that thought, start to meditate on it, let my imagination run with it....the Court has to judged me an adulterer. I’m not sure about this. Is it possible Christ was speaking in hyperbole? I’m not doubting that fantasizing about adultery is not a good thing, but if it were actually adultery, then a spouse would be allowed to divorce her husband over thinking about committing adultery( if the husband admitted his thoughts), or the husband would be able to divorce his wife. No one would ever stay married. 22 hours ago, Jostler said: If I meditate on it, I am defiled.....there is less "fallout" but in Heaven's eyes....there is no difference. So, King David never meditated on adultery and murder before sleeping with Bathsheba and killing her husband? I’m asking because he was punished for his actions, not any thoughts or mediations I’m assuming he probably had. If it’s all the same in God’s eyes, wouldn’t the consequences be the same? Also, what about the distinction that’s made about sins that lead to death and those that do not? Edited January 21, 2020 by ReneeIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abrielle Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 204 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 281 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 We don't know for sure where is our limit, what separates us from the people who commit acts that we disapprove, how far away are we from their position. But to compare ourselves with killers makes us look down and we surely need to look Up, while analysing our actions. We already dwell with our inner struggles and i find unfair to bring such "teaching" upon people's heads. Self-righteousness is dangerous, yes, but way way way before a self-righteous man kills half a person, he will bring down hundreds with his words. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jostler Posted January 21, 2020 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 25 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,679 Content Per Day: 1.40 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 16 Joined: 01/19/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, ReneeIW said: I’m not sure about this. Is it possible Christ was speaking in hyperbole? I’m not doubting that fantasizing about adultery is not a good thing, but if it were actually adultery, then a spouse would be allowed to divorce her husband over thinking about committing adultery( if the husband admitted his thoughts), or the husband would be able to divorce his wife. No one would ever stay married. I personally don't think so. But i often read so literally it makes others uncomfortable . Under the Law it was the act that served as a valid reason for divorce... Jesus spoke of God's hatred for divorce, but upheld the understanding that marital infidelity was a legitimate reason for it. Quote Mal 2:13-16 And this is the second thing you do: You cover the altar of the LORD with tears, With weeping and crying; So He does not regard the offering anymore, Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands. Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the LORD has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant. But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. “For the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence,” Says the LORD of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.” Mat 19:8-9 ¶ He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” If we read the verses preceding Matt 19:8-9 to get the whole context, and He makes it clear God NEVER intended divorce to enter the picture, but evidently allowed it through Moses because of the seriousness of the consequences of marital unfaithfulness. This is probably much longer than you meant to ask for But, this all correlates to a revelation I believe He shared in a season when i was seeking Him to understand what it really meant to be created in His image. I concluded that in some very real ways we each as individuals do reflect an image of God, but also that the highest, fullest, most complete expression of His image in mankind is found in the human family. In which image the father is standing as representative of the Father, mother stands as representative of the Holy Spirit, and children, both male and female stand as representatives of Jesus, obedient to father and mother. Much, much more to that, but I'll stop there. I think we can discern that before anything that has been created was created, God was a FAMILY. Father, Son and Spirit, self existent in a delightful dance of loving each other, preferring each other and serving one another. We can see a bit of a taste of that in Proverbs 8....where Jesus is portrayed as Wisdom...His interaction with Father in the creation....and discern that His whole reason for creation and mankind, was so He could expand His family that He is. He was, and still is seeking "godly offspring". I think most find mental adultery easier to forgive.....it's most certainly damaging to a marriage. But the depth of betrayal just FEELS less serious when it hasn't actually been acted upon. Once the act enters the picture, though I believe God can recover a marriage even from that....it's very difficult...and both parties have to trust Him....and WORK toward that goal. And it better not happen twice.....ouch. I think God would prefer His children to do the hard yards and seek Him for restoration. He hates divorce.....but if we really understand the violation with a deeper understanding of what that "one flesh" is SYMBOLIC of....it tells us something about what God is like....though what is expressed through two genders in the image, points to a reality in the spirit that has nothing to do with gender or sexual union at all. When Jesus equated "lust in the heart" with the actual act I do believe He meant it exactly that way....from the perspective of heaven both are violations. From our perspective here, perhaps one seems a lot easier to forgive and overcome than that other. But He hates both..... My 2 cents ymmv Quote So, King David never meditated on adultery and murder before sleeping with Bathsheba and killing her husband? I’m asking because he was punished for his actions, not any thoughts or mediations I’m assuming he probably had. If it’s all the same in God’s eyes, wouldn’t the consequences be the same? Well, I'd say we can KNOW that in fact David did meditate on adultery before he actually committed the act. Here's what I mean: Quote 2Sa 11:1-4 ¶ It happened in the spring of the year, at the time when kings go out to battle, that David sent Joab and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the people of Ammon and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem. ¶ Then it happened one evening that David arose from his bed and walked on the roof of the king’s house. And from the roof he saw a woman bathing, and the woman was very beautiful to behold. So David sent and inquired about the woman. And someone said, “Is this not Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. He didn't just stumble into a slip-up. However much "meditating" it took....that unfolded according to a PLAN. I think it's safe to assume the plan was intended to satisfy adulterous intent before the act was committed. And I think we can discern he set himself up for it by disobedience. If you look at verse 1, the Holy Spirit saw fit to record the fact that David was not where he was supposed to be. He should have been out on the battlefield, leading the army of God in battling the enemies of God. As God's appointed King that was his "place". He was out of place, out of the will of God already. Had he been in his place, he'd never have seen the temptation posed by beauty that did not belong to him. But, whether that seems worthy of consideration or not, he obviously (to me anyway) chose to meditate on forming a plan to satisfy a lustful desire, even after he discovered Bathsheba was married. And to one of his own faithful warriors...a leader. Then got so trapped he resorted to murder to try to cover it up. I am personally convinced "lusts of the heart" have always been abhorrent to God. He certainly included the act as sin in the ten commandments. When Jesus came and changed the law to the law of liberty, He was finally introducing Father's plan from the start....to address the heart from which ALL sin springs. The Law addressed the outward expression of sin, Jesus addressed the root cause....and provided an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReneeIW Posted January 22, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 944 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 780 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, Jostler said: I am personally convinced "lusts of the heart" have always been abhorrent to God. He certainly included the act as sin in the ten commandments. When Jesus came and changed the law to the law of liberty, He was finally introducing Father's plan from the start....to address the heart from which ALL sin springs. The Law addressed the outward expression of sin, Jesus addressed the root cause....and provided an answer. I agree. My concern is that Christians are teaching that thinking about killing someone is just as bad as killing them. Thinking about committing adultery is just as bad as doing it. Thinking about stealing is just as bad as doing it. That is dangerous to me. Yes it is all sin, but I believe it’s different because of the fruit. 16 hours ago, Jostler said: Well, I'd say we can KNOW that in fact David did meditate on adultery before he actually committed the act. Here's what I mean What I was trying to suggest was that he probably had lustful thoughts about other women his entire life , but only the act with Bathsheba was punished. We are going to have thoughts, but we control ourselves, for the sake of Christ and others. I think it’s unhealthy for a kid to believe that thinking about a mass shooting is just as bad as doing it.Or a person believing that thinking about driving drunk is just as bad as doing it. Or my 13 year old daughter to believe that thinking about having sex is just as bad as doing it etc. If she has already thought about it, and it’s the same as doing it in God’s eyes, why not just go do it if she’s already crossed the line in God’s eyes? I can see Satan all over these teachings if we are not careful. I think what Christ revealed to us was the difference between God and man. God would never think about doing evil. Ever. So just the fact that we would think about evil things, shows that all of our hearts are wicked and only God is holy.So we cannot think we are better than anyone else in that sense, because we all have wicked hearts. But I don’t think Christ was teaching that the thought and the act were the same. Edited January 22, 2020 by ReneeIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 904 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,642 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2020 On 1/20/2020 at 12:35 PM, ReneeIW said: I was listening to a sermon early this morning and the pastor said that we are all capable of committing the same heinous and violent acts as serial killers and others if given the right circumstances, and that only a self-righteous person believes otherwise. I’ve heard this statement many times over the years and used to believe it, but now I do not. While we are all born with a sinful nature, it takes a certain type of personality to commit certain crimes. I can say unequivocally that I would not murder thirty people and hide them in my basement as one serial killer did. All glory goes to God for keeping me from those acts, but I don’t think it’s self righteous to say I am not capable of certain acts. I’m simply acknowledging that by the grace of God, I am not capable of doing certain things. Semantics. Potential / capability was what the statement you object to was striving for. I caution us all (myself included) not to bog ourselves and others down with argumentation that obfuscates the simple truth or point. Leave that to the lawyers and politicians... Oy... The Bible spends most of its words convicting and condemning humanity because we are so hard to convince. Romans 3:10 (NKJV) 10 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; Isaiah 64:6 and many others. But we still try to downplay our wicked nature (especially our own) and God wants us to face it and to accept the fact that only his Grace which we do not deserve, cannot earn, and would adulterate if we tried to add to it or take away from it... can save us. "Yeah but..." we say feigning confusion but in reality is our defiance... No! There are no exceptions. "But..." we still protest... No. Failure to acquiesce to this truth is to not truly believe in Jesus Christ. John 3:16–18 (AV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Romans 3:23 (AV) 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; "Yes, I believe I am a sinner..." we say, but then comes the excuses and denials... "but I am not like Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, Hitler, Pol Pot, Nero, Haman, Nebuchadnezzar, Sargon..." what the Bible says and no doubt the one who said what you object to meant is that we are all cut from the same cloth (so to speak) and that means POTENTIALLY we have the CAPABILITY of being one of these or even worse. Humanity = insanity driven through our fallen natures by Satan. We must face this. Be ware of this. Guard against this. Discipline ourselves against this. Or by indulgence / denial of it be trapped by it will increase exponentially. Ask yourself... Ever actually do something wrong you previously believed you would never do in a million years? Ever find yourself in a bad / evil situation where you asked "How did I end up here?" We are shocked. God is never surprised. He is omniscient. But even if he wasn't omniscient, he knows how bad humans are by our very nature. It comes to us as a complete surprise because we refuse to face the facts (especially about ourselves). Facing the facts about ourselves teaches us (for one thing) how much we do NOT deserve God's love or God's grace. Not facing the facts makes us proud, arrogant, impossibly stupid and self righteous as if we are doing God a favor by loving him and serving him. Or that of course he would save us after all we deserve it or are so sweet and innocent... No, God had to reach into the muck and mire and evil that is me to save me: the worst of sinners. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 904 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,642 Content Per Day: 2.03 Reputation: 5,830 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2020 Food for thought... for those of us who have not murdered anyone... Have you ever not witnessed to someone for whatever reason (scared, weary from arguing, anything)? Suppose you were their last hope of hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ in such a way that they would seriously consider it. They died and are now in hell. Oh, but I'm as sweet as the next person... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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