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The Beloved Disciple?


Dennis1209

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2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Jesus and John were like best friends. But the Bible is silent on why.

That's my understanding also. 

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17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Have you ever wondered why the disciple John was so beloved of Jesus and special?

John 13:23 (KJV) Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. [John never brings attention to himself, refers to himself in the third person]

John 19:26 (KJV) When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

The Apostle John was probably the only Apostle that didn't die a martyrs death, and lived to a ripe old age. Reading scripture you can't help but to notice there was something special about John in Jesus' eyes? John was given the special blessing and privilege of taking care of His mother, why? I'm trying to develop and research an opinion as to why John was so special; but it gets a little confusing with the genealogy, as that may be part of it? There are three "Mary's" talked about during the time of Jesus' crucifixion; Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and Mary Salome [wife of Zebedee and mother of James & John]. 

This Mary Salome appears to be the sister [or half sister] to Mary, the mother of Jesus? This naming is somewhat confusing, having 'two' named Mary's in such a small family group? 

Anyway, it's starting to appear that Jesus and John were related, and may have grown up together and were very close? 

Anyone studied this and formed an opinion of this close relationship? Thoughts??

Point #1

We need to take care not to use extrabiblical historic documents beyond their purpose of authenticating biblical claims in history. 

Genealogies, for example, can be easily tampered with for prideful purposes. 

The Toledot Yeshu, for another example, can be used as extrabiblical historic evidence of Jesus of Nazareth but it's claims he was the

illegitimate son of Miriam and a Roman soldier named Panteros cannot be authenticated. Point being, the document would not have

been written to try to smear Jesus if Jesus did not actually live.

Point #2

I think of John as someone special as was Daniel both of which God revealed not only paramount prophecies through, but in the case of

John God revealed his own heart 1 John 4:8, John 3:16.... God is love... for God so loved the world...

John 13:1 Jesus showed the full extent of his love...

IMHO John was a very clearer reflection of God's love than most. Save, the Lord Jesus Christ of course.

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The break down of the Gospel books (as I recall) are

Matthew (the Jewishness of Jesus)

Royal line down to the foster father

 

Mark (the humanity of Jesus)

Servanthood

 

Luke* (the historicity of Jesus)

Actual line from Adam to Mary

 

John (the deity of Jesus)

The heart of God

* Coupled with the book of Acts, these books appear to have been the work of Doctor Luke in investigation and documentation for the trial documents of the Apostle Paul's appeal to Caesar. One did not simply appear willynilly before the Emperor of the known world.

Edited by JohnD
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Hi, Am I wrong in reasoning that it is John and John alone that makes an account of himself being the beloved Apostle? The Book of John is presumed to be his personal account written by him. In it he calls himself the beloved Apostle six times.  But where else is he called that? Anywhere by anyone's hand other than his own? (Maybe there is somewhere, but I can't think of any.)

The apostles were competitive, even asking  who is the greatest among them. They are men after all. John and Peter have some rivalry and John dumps in  a few self serving descriptions of himself as the beloved one, when compared with Peter especially. He takes little digs at Peter.

See John 13:23 , 19:26 , 20:2 , 21:7 , 21:20 , 21:24

Six times it is the hand of John that proclaims himself the beloved or favored one.  Does anyone else make this statement about John?

In 13:23 he immediately following mentions Peter. Same at 20:2 , 21:7.  Plus 21:20 through 21:25 is a bit of a confirmation of some rivalry between Peter and John is it not? With Peter turning about to look at John and then ask Jesus is he the one that betrays you?

All the disciples were men, lifted by God to service. It is rather natural for men to want a pecking order, and to want to be at the top of it. Why even a  mother get in the act, did one they not?

 I think God uses these accounts to show that the individuals He calls into even the greatest service are always individuals incapable of great service except by God's doing. It is always God that is in charge and is sovereign. Same as He has done throughout time.

Men are frail and vain in need of acclaim each battles against it in service to our lord, as the old man battles back.

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The Bible gives us clues to use about this:
First there's this- God's promise to us as no respecting of person

Prov 28:21
21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.
KJV

Rom 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
KJV

*So we know it was not his person.

Second our whole first born structure is not to be priority as to family by first born blood

Luke 14:26

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
KJV

1 John 2:9

9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
KJV


These sayings seem to be paradoxical but in fact Jesus Himself clears this up and makes it perfect sense

Matt 12:48-50

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
KJV


so the family we first were born into carries not the same weight as the family we are born again into in fact the first shall pass away but the second continues eternally...

*His willingness to separate himself from what He was born into as to the dedication of his life now to the family of God is affirmed in the history...

thirdly, The half brother of Jesus was inspired to say this

James 4:8-10

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, >and he shall lift you up<.
KJV


*As John clearly lived this in his 'New Life' by willingly letting the first life go- God was able to draw nearer to John by John's being in this willingness in drawing near to God...

The pathway is so narrow you cannot cling to anything of this world or first born life (which is really death) and embrace by faith that which is promised by Word from God... 
hence we see lastly the reality of John in that He was the only one of those (men) who followed Jesus at the cross

John 12:25-26

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
KJV


His love for Jesus his friend out weighed his own life or risk thereof... proof is in the pudding so to speak! As the Scriptures teach us we, by beginning, are limited vessels for containment and what we choose to keep within will determine our closeness and usability by God … as John was willing to hold the truths he has seen in his Friend and God Jesus we see the honor God bestowed upon His friend John...
 

John 21:20-23

20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
KJV


And Jesus kept His promise to his friend John and thus we have The Revelation... He was first raptured by God so that we all could have the precious plan God has for all of us in the eternal state...

  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Am I wrong in reasoning that it is John and John alone that makes an account of himself being the beloved Apostle? The Book of John is presumed to be his personal account written by him. In it he calls himself the beloved Apostle six times.  But where else is he called that? Anywhere by anyone's hand other than his own? (Maybe there is somewhere, but I can't think of any.)

The apostles were competitive, even asking  who is the greatest among them. They are men after all. John and Peter have some rivalry and John dumps in  a few self serving descriptions of himself as the beloved one, when compared with Peter especially. He takes little digs at Peter.

See John 13:23 , 19:26 , 20:2 , 21:7 , 21:20 , 21:24

Six times it is the hand of John that proclaims himself the beloved or favored one.  Does anyone else make this statement about John?

In 13:23 he immediately following mentions Peter. Same at 20:2 , 21:7.  Plus 21:20 through 21:25 is a bit of a confirmation of some rivalry between Peter and John is it not? With Peter turning about to look at John and then ask Jesus is he the one that betrays you?

All the disciples were men, lifted by God to service. It is rather natural for men to want a pecking order, and to want to be at the top of it. Why even a  mother get in the act, did one they not?

 I think God uses these accounts to show that the individuals He calls into even the greatest service are always individuals incapable of great service except by God's doing. It is always God that is in charge and is sovereign. Same as He has done throughout time.

Men are frail and vain in need of acclaim each battles against it in service to our lord, as the old man battles back.

The Old Testament disciples were in hot competition.

The New Testament Apostles were not.

If God had a problem with what John wrote at any part,

would he not have strickened it from Holy Writ?

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1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

There are elements of biblical writing which is descriptive, not proscriptive.

Granted.

Example:

1 Chronicles 22 (AV)
7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:
8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
11 Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee.

God didn't tell David this.  David [said] God did. And the scriptures reflect what David said as a mater of historic record of what he said.

Echoed in 1 Chronicles 28 as well.

What God actually said was:

2 Samuel 7:12–13 (AV)
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Translated by:

Zechariah 6:12–13 (AV)
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

And the Temple he builds is:

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

My question to you is, was the Apostle John speaking like David in that he claimed Jesus loved him when in fact Jesus didn't love him?

Is that what you are saying?

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8 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Am I wrong in reasoning that it is John and John alone that makes an account of himself being the beloved Apostle? The Book of John is presumed to be his personal account written by him. In it he calls himself the beloved Apostle six times.  But where else is he called that? Anywhere by anyone's hand other than his own? (Maybe there is somewhere, but I can't think of any.)

The apostles were competitive, even asking  who is the greatest among them. They are men after all. John and Peter have some rivalry and John dumps in  a few self serving descriptions of himself as the beloved one, when compared with Peter especially. He takes little digs at Peter.

See John 13:23 , 19:26 , 20:2 , 21:7 , 21:20 , 21:24

Six times it is the hand of John that proclaims himself the beloved or favored one.  Does anyone else make this statement about John?

In 13:23 he immediately following mentions Peter. Same at 20:2 , 21:7.  Plus 21:20 through 21:25 is a bit of a confirmation of some rivalry between Peter and John is it not? With Peter turning about to look at John and then ask Jesus is he the one that betrays you?

All the disciples were men, lifted by God to service. It is rather natural for men to want a pecking order, and to want to be at the top of it. Why even a  mother get in the act, did one they not?

 I think God uses these accounts to show that the individuals He calls into even the greatest service are always individuals incapable of great service except by God's doing. It is always God that is in charge and is sovereign. Same as He has done throughout time.

Men are frail and vain in need of acclaim each battles against it in service to our lord, as the old man battles back.

 

Quote
“Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.”

 

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20 hours ago, maryjayne said:

Of course not. Jesus loves every one, ever.

Who are you referring to as the old testament disciples anyway?

And there are several instances, previously quoted by others on this thread, of the new testament disciples arguing about who had more prominence among them.

The same old testament disciples of Jesus / the new testament apostles of Jesus. 

The New Testament (New Covenant) does not begin at Matthew 1.

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Everything up to the cross of Christ was OLD Testament.

 

Edited by JohnD
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On 1/21/2020 at 4:22 PM, Jostler said:

haha...i've had it in my mind to sort out those relationships for years....but never got a round tuit.  Round tuits are rare.....

I knew Salome was wife of Zebedee, mother of James and John, but didn't realize she was a Mary.

And what about Mary sister of Martha?  Siblings of Lazarus?  Is she also Magdalene?  Some say yes but i'm not sure.   Anyway, i am very suspicious there's a lot to be learned from those relationships that can be conclusively nailed down.

We do know for sure Jesus and John the Baptist were related because Mary was a "kinswoman" of Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother.  I really would be curious to know if He was related to James and John, sons of Zebedee as well...keep us posted :)

 

I think John most likely stood out because he'd learned how to love Jesus back the best.  But, it seems clear there were discernible differences in relational closeness in Jesus' life.   There were a multitude of disciples who followed Him, but the 12 had a much more intimate relationship with Him and probably got a lot more of His focused time and attention too.  Then of the 12, were Peter, James and John.   And then there was John.....

What to me stood out was, of the twelve, even Judas was called "friend" up until the moment he betrayed Jesus with a kiss: "Friend, do what you came for." Imagine knowing full-well what Judas was about to do the entire time, and still called him friend. It was when Judas nailed the coffin experientially, he became betrayer. Perhaps actions do indeed speak louder than words. 

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