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3 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

What I'm trying to say - I don't think Jesus' coming stated in 2 Thess. 2:1 is the rapture. Why?

Because in the 8th verse of the same chapter, it says that the Antichrist is destroyed at the coming of Jesus. If the Antichrist is destroyed at the rapture, who would be the Antichrist in the final 7 years? 

And Paul talks about only ONE coming in his letters. God bless us all.

I got that. The converse is true as well as I posted above. One coming. One gathering. Antichrist, the beast, on the scene at the time of the gathering and Coming of the Lord.

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49 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

What I'm trying to say - I don't think Jesus' coming stated in 2 Thess. 2:1 is the rapture. Why?

Because in the 8th verse of the same chapter, it says that the Antichrist is destroyed at the coming of Jesus. If the Antichrist is destroyed at the rapture, who would be the Antichrist in the final 7 years? 

And Paul talks about only ONE coming in his letters. God bless us all.

God/Jesus doesn't speak in finite terms like we do, they have a bigger plan. We also don't know everything Paul was given, God gives to this arm something and to that leg another gift. Paul was indeed given the Rapture of the Church, we know that. John  was given the End Time Events via visions etc. etc. Paul does know that when Jesus comes he will destroy the Anti-Christ, just because Paul mentions the Second Coming here doesn't mean hes saying the Rapture is the Second Coming. He seems to know that we go to be with the Lord, I don't know that he knew what John was shown. We have to piece it together via reading all the Scriptures. Paul also says the Anti-Christ will stand in the Temple, I don't think that is what John was shown, it seems like John says the False Prophet places an IMAGE of the Beast in the Temple {that matches what Jesus said better.....When that which OUGHT NOT Stands in the Temple, Jesus didn't say when he stands in the Temple, he said when THAT which ought not} So I think the False Prophet erects some Statue/IMAGE of some type of the European King in the Temple of God.

We shouldn't try to say what God's Servants actually knew in full. We know via reading all the bible that the Rapture happens, then Jesus returns 7 years later. Paul probably knew it but was just speaking in generalities, he speaks of the Rapture {Church departing} then throws in the HEY....Jesus will take him out in the end.

Jesus CALLING US TO HIM is not him coming to earth....but if you read John ch. 20 you can see Jesus has already came a second time, see if you can catch it....the clues are Jesus told Mary TOUCHE ME NOT.....then 8 days later he told Doubting Thomas to TOUCHE HIM. This means he had to go to Heaven in between those two events.

 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Since the pretrib rapture does not exist you are correct. 

But I think you should reread your post above, slowly, several times. Then relate it to rational thought.

You will see the Pre trib Rapture as you go up one day......shortly. Be ready, just remember you don't have to stay dressed at bed time, we leave our body behind. ZOOM, ZOOM, ZOOM.

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On 1/21/2020 at 5:43 PM, Dennis1209 said:

His second coming is with us, His bride. How can anyone 'comfort one another' knowing or thinking they will be subject to going through the most horrific time ever in history, the seven year tribulation. 

Well, the Thessalonians were concerned about those who had gone on ahead, those who sleep, Christians who had died, and they were thinking, that they had missed coming of the Lord and the gathering.

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,a 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

Paul wanted to settle their concerns, yet he told them of things to come, that they should expect troubles:

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

There he is telling them that they need to stand firm. Jesus had said that it is those who persevere until the end (in the context of the tribulation) who shall be saved. (Matt 24 et al).

Now bear in mind, that Paul had already told them this. Notice here:

 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

How is it NOT comforting to know, that in spite of all the persecution that the devil can apply, that we have an eternity of comfort, joy, happiness, blessing, no pain, no tears etc.? Seven years (or whatever) is a blink of the eye, compared with the eternity to come and the things that our minds cannot imagine that God has prepared for us.

God shortens those days, for the sake of the elect, and can give us the strength to endure persecution for His sake, as He always has, and currently does, and will continue to do.

That is extremely comforting to me, all it takes is a little faith that God will fulfill His promises!

By the way, since about the mid 80s, maybe earlier, I have assumed that I personally, would or at least could be in the Great Tribulation. I have always taken comfort in these words, and was all but wanting to be in the Tribulation, to be counted worthy to suffer for Him, what a privilege! So, I am living proof that it is quite possible to take comfort, knowing that this world is not my home.

Now though, it appears that most likely, I will die before those days come, God may not have chosen me to serve Him in that way. Blessed are those who get to suffer as martyrs for Him, for so they persecuted the prophets, and they will be rewarded for their faithfulness. Maybe God knows I am a wimp, and might deny Him, and spares me that humiliation! His will be done, regardless!

As one pastor I was aware of said: "Cheer up saints, it's going to get worse!"

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On 1/21/2020 at 12:22 PM, kenny2212 said:

2 Thess. 2:1 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him...

Guys, I have a question... Is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ stated in this passage - 1. His coming at the rapture? Or 2. His second coming? (Rev. 19:11-21). Support your answers with scripture where possible. God bless us all!

It speaks of the day of the Lord when Jesus returns to destroy Satan's kingdom.  At the seventh trumpet, Jesus appears in the clouds and sounds the last trumpet, the trumpet of God and those who are His are made immortal and gathered to Him.

The answer to your question is yes, and yes.  2 Thess 2 describes His second coming and the rapture of those who are His.  Here is a pdf that goes into detail if you're interested.

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14 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well, the Thessalonians were concerned about those who had gone on ahead, those who sleep, Christians who had died, and they were thinking, that they had missed coming of the Lord and the gathering.

1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,a 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 

Paul wanted to settle their concerns, yet he told them of things to come, that they should expect troubles:

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

There he is telling them that they need to stand firm. Jesus had said that it is those who persevere until the end (in the context of the tribulation) who shall be saved. (Matt 24 et al).

Now bear in mind, that Paul had already told them this. Notice here:

 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

How is it NOT comforting to know, that in spite of all the persecution that the devil can apply, that we have an eternity of comfort, joy, happiness, blessing, no pain, no tears etc.? Seven years (or whatever) is a blink of the eye, compared with the eternity to come and the things that our minds cannot imagine that God has prepared for us.

God shortens those days, for the sake of the elect, and can give us the strength to endure persecution for His sake, as He always has, and currently does, and will continue to do.

That is extremely comforting to me, all it takes is a little faith that God will fulfill His promises!

By the way, since about the mid 80s, maybe earlier, I have assumed that I personally, would or at least could be in the Great Tribulation. I have always taken comfort in these words, and was all but wanting to be in the Tribulation, to be counted worthy to suffer for Him, what a privilege! So, I am living proof that it is quite possible to take comfort, knowing that this world is not my home.

Now though, it appears that most likely, I will die before those days come, God may not have chosen me to serve Him in that way. Blessed are those who get to suffer as martyrs for Him, for so they persecuted the prophets, and they will be rewarded for their faithfulness. Maybe God knows I am a wimp, and might deny Him, and spares me that humiliation! His will be done, regardless!

As one pastor I was aware of said: "Cheer up saints, it's going to get worse!"

You've no option to click the little "this is Worthy" icon button? Your thoughts and biblical post exactly mirror my own. Can't add, debate or discuss anything you wrote. Reminds me of the old adage, "you're preaching to the choir." :D

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On 1/22/2020 at 12:10 AM, kenny2212 said:

What I'm trying to say - I don't think Jesus' coming stated in 2 Thess. 2:1 is the rapture. Why?

Because in the 8th verse of the same chapter, it says that the Antichrist is destroyed at the coming of Jesus. If the Antichrist is destroyed at the rapture, who would be the Antichrist in the final 7 years? 

And Paul talks about only ONE coming in his letters. God bless us all.

Kenny, may I ask you a question, ...if the anti-christ were to be revealed while you were still here, as a part of the Church, on the planet, ...wouldn't you, and an estimated 1.5 billion born again children of God,  be warning everyone of "who" he is?

Who is the "what" that is keeping him from being revealed:

And now you know what holds back, for him to be revealed in his own time.  2 Thess 2:6

Is it not us, the Church, ...that would warn everybody about "who" he is?

Please compare these two verses:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16-17

and

And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:11, 14

Do you see the difference, ...in Thessalonians Jesus descends to the clouds and "resurrects the "bodies"  of those that have died in faith believing in Him and then we who are still alive, who comprise His Bride, are "caught up" to meet Him there, ...Jesus does not come back to the physical earth, ...whereas in Revelation He is riding on a horse and we are riding on horses with Him and Jesus "is" returning to the earth to make war.

If the Revelation verses are explaining the "rapture" of the Church then we are caught up, placed on horses and then come right back down with Him, ...go up and then come right back down!

The Revelation is written in a chronological order, ...Jesus told John:

Write the things which you have seen (past), and the things which are (present), and the things which shall be after this (future), Rev 1:19

The past is chapter 1, the present is chapters 2 and 3, and the future is chapters 4-22, ...chapters 4 and 5  tell us about the Church in Heaven, and they come "chronologically before chapter 19.

Lord bless

 

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15 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

As one pastor I was aware of said: "Cheer up saints, it's going to get worse!"

 

The late, brilliant Bible Teacher, Dr.Gene Scott used to say this frequently. Is this the Paster that you were referring to?

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On 1/21/2020 at 8:10 PM, missmuffet said:

After the rapture of the Church the 7 year tribulation will come upon this earth. The Antichrist will be revealed at that time. 

Naturally I don't know when the Rapture will occur but, I have an opinion. I don't think the tribulation can start 'immediately' right after the catching away of the saints. I suspect there has to be an undetermined period of time between the Rapture and start of the tribulation with events in between. 

If my statistics are correct; there are many more true Christians on this side of the hemisphere than in Israel, Europe and the middle East. Therefore, this side of the hemisphere will be impacted greater than where the Bible focuses on, Israel, Europe and the middle East; the entire globe will be in turmoil and economic, transportation of goods and services, production and chaos following the Rapture. Logically thinking, it will take some time to sort things out, reorganize to the new one world global government and economic system, and restore a semblance of order and government. What religions will remain on earth after the Rapture and go into the tribulation? I can think of two major ones, and both of them seem to be coming together under one ecumenical movement that is being formed in the present.

People are going to demand answers on what just occurred. There will be an unprecedented number of airplane, boat, train and automobile accidents; perhaps nuclear power plant meltdowns in areas unattended and many other tragedies with the sudden disappearance of millions of Christians?

My interpretation of scripture suggests the Antichrist will not be revealed until he confirms a seven year peace deal with Israel and the many. My interpretation is clear that Israel knows it is making an agreement with the devil, but does it anyway? My thoughts are, there has to be something very serious and pressing for Israel to knowingly sign this pact with the devil. Perhaps it's that scourge heading their way? 

Yeah I know, my theology is not a one size fits all  :D

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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Naturally I don't know when the Rapture will occur but, I have an opinion. I don't think the tribulation can start 'immediately' right after the catching away of the saints. I suspect there has to be an undetermined period of time between the Rapture and start of the tribulation with events in between. 

If my statistics are correct; there are many more true Christians on this side of the hemisphere than in Israel, Europe and the middle East. Therefore, this side of the hemisphere will be impacted greater than where the Bible focuses on, Israel, Europe and the middle East; the entire globe will be in turmoil and economic, transportation of goods and services, production and chaos following the Rapture. Logically thinking, it will take some time to sort things out, reorganize to the new one world global government and economic system, and restore a semblance of order and government. What religions will remain on earth after the Rapture and go into the tribulation? I can think of two major ones, and both of them seem to be coming together under one ecumenical movement that is being formed in the present.

People are going to demand answers on what just occurred. There will be an unprecedented number of airplane, boat, train and automobile accidents; perhaps nuclear power plant meltdowns in areas unattended and many other tragedies with the sudden disappearance of millions of Christians?

My interpretation of scripture suggests the Antichrist will not be revealed until he confirms a seven year peace deal with Israel and the many. My interpretation is clear that Israel knows it is making an agreement with the devil, but does it anyway? My thoughts are, there has to be something very serious and pressing for Israel to knowingly sign this pact with the devil. Perhaps it's that scourge heading their way? 

Yeah I know, my theology is not a one size fits all  :D

The Bible does not say how much time will pass for the 7 year tribulation to take place after the rapture of the Church. So your thoughts are valid. :)

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